Canada Post Workers Protest

[Electric Monk]

I heard an interesting story on the radio today, dealing with Vancouver postal workers protesting an allegedly anti-homosexual pamphlet being sent out. The story is here.

Here is an excerpt from the story:

"Canada Post spokeswoman Colleen Frick says the company has a contract to deliver the brochure and it will do just that.

She notes that it was "deemed acceptable and appropriate for mailing under the Canada postal guide." "The criteria is very specific. And if something is not deemed obscene in nature, then the item will be acceptable for mailing. And this particular item was deemed appropriate. So it will be delivered."

The following is an excerpt from the Canada Postal Guide, in the Criminal Code and other Offences section:

"Any person using the mail for the delivery of any one of the following items commits an offense:

a: articles that are obscene, indecent, immoral or scurrilous" (bolded for emphasis)

Not having read the text of the pamphlet myself, (yet), I'm wondering why only obscenity was cited as a reason for rejection, when there are clearly three other criteria?

A spokesman for the employees said that they protested because they consider it "hate mail."

Now oddly enough, even after Bill C-250 amended the Criminal Code, there is a section that excuses anything that would otherwise be considered hate propaganda "if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text." (3b)

What a bizarre idea, remember there are MANY religions out there, does this boil down to a free pass for anyone who can prove that they believe what they say, and can produce an old religious text to base it on?

[Guest Warwick Green]

Not having seen it I have no idea if it is "hate mail" or not but in any event it is not up to the employees to make that determination. It's their job to deliver the mail. If they want to protest during their off-duty hours they are free to do so.

[Leafless]

A spokesman for the employees said that they protested because they consider it "hate mail."

Homosexual relating to homosexuality= "1. feeling or involving sexual attraction only to persons of the same sex." Quoted from the Concise Oxford Dictionary.

I really don't know how a brochure against homosexuality can be considered 'hate mail' as it is not pertaining or identifying any particular person.

This could be compared to a brochure against 'heterosexuality', saying most Christians are heterosexual and we consider this to be obscene, indecent and immoral. So what? If you don't like it don't read it.

If you are afraid or ashamed of what you are I can understand why there would be complaints in this area.

[Black Dog]

I really don't know how a brochure against homosexuality can be considered 'hate mail' as it is not pertaining or identifying any particular person.

So if a neo Nazi group sent out a brochure saying Jews are evil, control the world and that they sacrificed Christian babies, you would not consider that hate mail.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like the pamphlet meets the legal definition of hate speech. And hey: yay free speech. But if I got such a publication, I'd wipe my ass with it and mail it back to the jackasses who sent it out.

[Electric Monk]

I think the Criminal code would define it as "hate propaganda", without the "notwithstanding clause" I will quote from here.

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

A: if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

B: if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

Warwick, should business trump morality? I noticed the Canada Post spokesperson also gave the reason "we have a contract", to what extent should this defense hold?

Leafless, if your last sentence above was directed at me, why do you feel the need to attack me?

Black Dog, do you feel it is the right of others to metaphorically "crap" on a piece of paper and deliver it to you with your mail?

[JerrySeinfeld]

So if a neo Nazi group sent out a brochure saying Jews are evil, control the world and that they sacrificed Christian babies, you would not consider that hate mail.

No, that would be Radical Islamic literature protected under Canada's multicultural policies.

[Riverwind]

Not having seen it I have no idea if it is "hate mail" or not but in any event it is not up to the employees to make that determination. It's their job to deliver the mail. If they want to protest during their off-duty hours they are free to do so.

The brochure claimed that homosexuals caused the AIDS epidemic and were therefore responsible for the deaths of millions of people from this disease. It can be reasonably classed as hate literature.

That said, I don't like the precedent where individual postal workers are allowed to make a determination on their own. They should just deliver it and take their beef to the appropriate channels.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Personally I don't agree with the pamphlet.

But again I can't help but notice the pattern here.

Who is being silenced here? Gays or Christians? Christians are.

This comes down to two completely opposite beliefs. But one side is being silenced and the other side is being championed.

Just remember, every time I hear about "Gay Rights" and not having a voice in society, think about these examples of how Gay rights are not only protected, but they're protected in the face of the constitutional right to freedom of speech and religion.

My point is this: Anyone trying to fool you into believing that Gays, Minorities, Women etc. are not represented in our society are living in the past.

The establishment? The establishment in today's world IS gay, minority, left wing.

[bk59]

Personally I don't agree with the pamphlet.

But again I can't help but notice the pattern here.

Who is being silenced here? Gays or Christians? Christians are.

This comes down to two completely opposite beliefs. But one side is being silenced and the other side is being championed.

Just remember, every time I hear about "Gay Rights" and not having a voice in society, think about these examples of how Gay rights are not only protected, but they're protected in the face of the constitutional right to freedom of speech and religion.

My point is this: Anyone trying to fool you into believing that Gays, Minorities, Women etc. are not represented in our society are living in the past.

The establishment? The establishment in today's world IS gay, minority, left wing.

I'm not sure it's a question of who is being silenced, but a question of what is being said. I think there is a large distinction between someone saying "I want an equal place in society" versus someone saying "This group of people through their immoral actions has caused a plague on society."

Of course I haven't actually read the pamphlet, I've only seen the title of it as pictured in the CBC link in the original post: "The Plague of this 21st Century: The Consequences of the sin of Homosexuality (AIDS)".

[JerrySeinfeld]

Personally I don't agree with the pamphlet.

But again I can't help but notice the pattern here.

Who is being silenced here? Gays or Christians? Christians are.

This comes down to two completely opposite beliefs. But one side is being silenced and the other side is being championed.

Just remember, every time I hear about "Gay Rights" and not having a voice in society, think about these examples of how Gay rights are not only protected, but they're protected in the face of the constitutional right to freedom of speech and religion.

My point is this: Anyone trying to fool you into believing that Gays, Minorities, Women etc. are not represented in our society are living in the past.

The establishment? The establishment in today's world IS gay, minority, left wing.

I'm not sure it's a question of who is being silenced, but a question of what is being said. I think there is a large distinction between someone saying "I want an equal place in society" versus someone saying "This group of people through their immoral actions has caused a plague on society."

Of course I haven't actually read the pamphlet, I've only seen the title of it as pictured in the CBC link in the original post: "The Plague of this 21st Century: The Consequences of the sin of Homosexuality (AIDS)".

No - it's about who's being silenced.

[bk59]

That said, I don't like the precedent where individual postal workers are allowed to make a determination on their own. They should just deliver it and take their beef to the appropriate channels.

This is similar to the argument that those employed by the government to perform civil marriages should not be able to refuse to perform same-sex civil marriages. They were hired by the government to do that job; if they disagree with the policy then they should protest in their off-hours.

There is one difference though. In the same-sex marriage case the government has clearly said that all same-sex marriages should be recognized. In the Canada Post case, the material that the postal workers are objecting to has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. So if a postal worker sees something that they think is objectionable I don't have a problem with them saying "I won't deliver this until I hear that Canada Post has officially sanctioned this and finds it acceptable to deliver." However, as soon as Canada Post says that it is acceptable, they should deliver the material. And are free to protest in their off-hours.

[bk59]

No - it's about who's being silenced.

But that's just not the case. The objection to the material was not based on who it came from. It was based on what the message was.

Not only that, but no one was silenced in this case anyway. Canada Post said that they were going to deliver the pamphlets.

[JerrySeinfeld]

That said, I don't like the precedent where individual postal workers are allowed to make a determination on their own. They should just deliver it and take their beef to the appropriate channels.

This is similar to the argument that those employed by the government to perform civil marriages should not be able to refuse to perform same-sex civil marriages. They were hired by the government to do that job; if they disagree with the policy then they should protest in their off-hours.

There is one difference though. In the same-sex marriage case the government has clearly said that all same-sex marriages should be recognized. In the Canada Post case, the material that the postal workers are objecting to has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. So if a postal worker sees something that they think is objectionable I don't have a problem with them saying "I won't deliver this until I hear that Canada Post has officially sanctioned this and finds it acceptable to deliver." However, as soon as Canada Post says that it is acceptable, they should deliver the material. And are free to protest in their off-hours.

I'm positive there is already that mechanism in place. If someone printed a stack of flyers reading "f*ck the jews" i don't think it would make it's way into the postal bags and trucks. So obviously there is some sort of approval process.

Again, this is about who is being silenced. I ask you this: if there was a flyer for the gay pride parade ready for delivery and postal workers refused to deliver it, there'd be a big bloody u[proar about homophobia - guaranteed.

[bk59]

I'm positive there is already that mechanism in place. If someone printed a stack of flyers reading "f*ck the jews" i don't think it would make it's way into the postal bags and trucks. So obviously there is some sort of approval process.

Agreed, there is probably an approval process already. I just don't have a problem with a postal worker confirming that the material actually went through that process. Mistakes happen. Things slip through. Once confirmed... deliver away.

Again, this is about who is being silenced. I ask you this: if there was a flyer for the gay pride parade ready for delivery and postal workers refused to deliver it, there'd be a big bloody u[proar about homophobia - guaranteed.

Yes, there would be an uproar. Just as if a church group sent out a flyer about an upcoming church picnic and postal workers refused to deliver it, there would be a huge uproar about freedom of religion.

In both cases there would be a guaranteed uproar from people who feel their rights are being trampled on. And rightfully so, because in both cases the flyers were clearly not hate mail. The issue here is that the pamphlet seems to border on hate mail. It at least pushes the boundaries.

There are numerous examples where Christians do have their voices heard. In this case it is the message of the pamphlet being criticized, NOT the fact that the pamphlet came from a Baptist group. The reason it's not a question of WHO is simply because if this pamphlet had come from a completely non-religious organization it still would have been flagged by the postal worker in question because of the content.

[Electric Monk]

Jerry Seinfeld, rightly so, one is hate propaganda, the other is not.

[Black Dog]

Again, this is about who is being silenced. I ask you this: if there was a flyer for the gay pride parade ready for delivery and postal workers refused to deliver it, there'd be a big bloody u[proar about homophobia - guaranteed.

Just as I can guarantee that if it was a Muslim organization that sent out the flyers, you'd be all over it like a fly on cowshit.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Again, this is about who is being silenced. I ask you this: if there was a flyer for the gay pride parade ready for delivery and postal workers refused to deliver it, there'd be a big bloody u[proar about homophobia - guaranteed.

Just as I can guarantee that if it was a Muslim organization that sent out the flyers, you'd be all over it like a fly on cowshit.

Absolutely - and I certainly wouldn't try to silence it. I'd celebrate.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Warwick, should business trump morality? I noticed the Canada Post spokesperson also gave the reason "we have a contract", to what extent should this defense hold?

The business CanPost is in to deliver the mail, not to pass moral judgments on others. If there is reason to believe this is "hate mail" let someone file a complaint with the police.

From what I can see though, this is just a bunch of religious yahoos and nobody will take this stuff seriously.

[JerrySeinfeld]

One is religious freedom, one is sexual.