Provincial Seperation

[Figleaf]

Canada is a Confederation of Sovereign Individual Provinces.....Each Province has a Head of State, the LT. Gov...Each Province has an elected Prime Minister, or if you are French Premier.....Each Province has it's own local Parliament.....Each Province has a border.....No Province belongs directlt to Canada.....In fact the people of each Province own that Province......The Parliament at Ottawa doesn't even own the land that the Ottawa Parliament buildings sit on the people of Ontario own that land......And in Alberta the people of Alberta own all the land that the oil sands sit on, not Ft. McMurray... Your argument is childish and immature....No Alberta does not belong to TROC, we are not your chattels, Yes we can leave when we democratically decide to do so......

Your opinion is factually incorrect in several respects:

1) the Canadian federation has 'split sovereignty'. Each provincial government, as you say, is sovereign, but only in respect of the jurisditional areas assigned to the provinces under s.92 of the constitution and ancillary provisions. The federal government is sovereign in respect of all other matters.

2) I don't know exactly what you mean by 'belongs to Canada'. Certainly every province is a member of the Canadian federation. And constitutionally, there is no contemplation of a separate free-standing existence of provinces from Canada.

3) Regarding 'the people of each province owning that province', you are mistaken. In fact, every citizen of Canada has an equal interest in the sovereignty of Canada over every inch of her territory.

4) My argument is not childish or immature. Rather your resort to a ludicrous ad hominem at the very outset of our conversation is childish and immature -- even moreso than your assertion of unsupported nonsense as useful constitutional comment.

5) No province can secede on its own sole initiative. To attempt to do so would involve criminal illegality. Any legal secession would require a constitutional amendment.

6) You are right, though, that citizens are no-one's chattels. Any citizens of any province who object to conditions anywhere in Canada are totally free to emigrate.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes we can leave, but should we have to? I want to, but that is just me. Many Albertans are proud Canadians and must be convinced to leave. This will be no small task. Fortunately the feds and our own provincial government make it abundantly clear that our current system has various flaws which can be viewed as detrimental to the interests of citizens.

Our new Premier is already under fire for some decidely foolish deals cooked up with the oil barons that ravish our lands. These plans were not his but in true political fashion will be honoured as done deals. Steady Eddie is not likely to offer any new direction for citizens.

[kimmy]

"If Canada is divisible, then Quebec is divisible."

...and if Quebec is divisible in the course of negotiating a separation, rest assured that Alberta is too.

Carving the northeast corner of Alberta (where a considerable percentage of the population is transplanted residents of other parts of Canada anyway) and keeping it in Canada would undoubtably put a considerable damper on the enthusiasm for Alberta separatism.

-k

[Figleaf]

Yes we can leave, but should we have to?

You don't have to. It's anyone's option. Irrespective of where anyone lives or what her grievances are, she is free to assess her needs and act on them. What people can't expect is that an entire body politic can or will adjust itself for demands that cannot be accomodated.

... Many Albertans are proud Canadians and must be convinced to leave.

Better yet, don't convince them. Provincial Whining Industries in all parts of the country should be held to account for their persistent irresponsible propaganda and citizens should begin to see them for what they are.

"If Canada is divisible, then Quebec is divisible."

...and if Quebec is divisible in the course of negotiating a separation, rest assured that Alberta is too.

Carving the northeast corner of Alberta (where a considerable percentage of the population is transplanted residents of other parts of Canada anyway) and keeping it in Canada would undoubtably put a considerable damper on the enthusiasm for Alberta separatism.

-k

Indeed. Frankly I see no reason that any province attempting separation cannot be divided constituency by constituency, requiring a majority in each to choose to stay in Canada or not. Let the separatists make their pitch convincing to everyone everywhere in their province. If they won't or can't, then they should stop trying to deprive loyal Canadians of their state.

[rbacon]

What Kimmy is suggesting is that we have a civil war.....Legally and constitutionally Albertans own every drop of water every drop of oil not Canadians.......TROC would not go to war over Alberta or anything else.....They couldn't even if they wanted too.....Alberta if we decided to leave already has legal tools at hand if the people decided to go independant....One is by calling a referendum under the Constitution and the other is a UEL which is messy but also legal......

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Let the separatists make their pitch convincing to everyone everywhere in their province. If they won't or can't, then they should stop trying to deprive loyal Canadians of their state.

I must agree with this statement. I think it is imperative that all citizens be allowed the opportunity to speak on this matter. I think that the apathetic citizenry is the key. Any movement that can acquire the converted members of this largest demographic is able to achieve whatever it is that they want. Such is my goal.

[Figleaf]

.....Legally and constitutionally Albertans own every drop of water every drop of oil not Canadians.......

That's just utterly false.

TROC would not go to war over Alberta or anything else.....

If Spain attempted to conquer Alberta, I'm sure Canada would try to defend it. Likewise if homegrown criminals in Alberta attempted to usurp legal sovereignty.

Alberta if we decided to leave already has legal tools at hand if the people decided to go independant....One is by calling a referendum under the Constitution ...

With due respect, you appear to have little grasp of this topic. There is no such thing as "a referendum under the Constitution". And, there are no constitutional tools whatsoever (other than proposing a normal constitutional amendment) that are provided for provincial separation.

I would advise you to read up on this subject before you try to argue about it any more.

... a UEL which is messy but also legal......

There is absolutely nothing 'legal' about a unilateral attempt to separate a province from Canada.

[kimmy]

Likewise if homegrown criminals in Alberta attempted to usurp legal sovereignty.

Oh, come now. Criminals? There's 30 years of ongoing precident that seems to indicate it's not criminal at all.

-k

[Figleaf]

Likewise if homegrown criminals in Alberta attempted to usurp legal sovereignty.

Oh, come now. Criminals? There's 30 years of ongoing precident that seems to indicate it's not criminal at all.

-k

It's not criminal to desire to separate from Canada and try doing it through lobbying for, and proposing constitutional amendments. It would be criminal for a provincial government to confiscate federal property, prevent federal activities, or defy federal law.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Hey Fig!

Lets turn that around a bit and ask ourselves about Quebecs Bill 101 shall we? What is with that whole pile of crap legislation anyway, and why has Ottawa to this day allowed Quebec to violate the spirit and intent of the constitution. Further to that, what is with Quebecs refusal to sign the 1982 Constitution, and still lay claim to articles of it to protect their own interests?

Lets think about that for a minute then enlighten us with your views of fair and equal treatment under the constitution.

[nickjbor]

all provinces should be able to leave, and all should leave and begin re-negotiations to re-federate Canada, this time in a way that will actually work.

[geoffrey]

Likewise if homegrown criminals in Alberta attempted to usurp legal sovereignty.

Oh, come now. Criminals? There's 30 years of ongoing precident that seems to indicate it's not criminal at all.

-k

It's not criminal to desire to separate from Canada and try doing it through lobbying for, and proposing constitutional amendments. It would be criminal for a provincial government to confiscate federal property, prevent federal activities, or defy federal law.

No one would enforce it though.

The Clarity Act doesn't provide a means for escape due to it's undemocratic and poorly constructed nature. So really, how does one exercise their democratic will to no longer be part of Canada?

[rbacon]

The Clarity Act is not apart of the Constitution at all and can and will be ignored by any Province that wishes to withdraw from the Confederation......Under the 1982 Constitution that some here don't seem to have read, if Alberta calls a referendum of it's citizen's on a constitutional matter, the constitution says that Ottawa must negotiate......UEL's are legal all over the world......Alberta obtained full and complete ownership of all land trees grass and water and oil in 1930 with a Constitutional Amendment......Fort McMurray can't leave Alberta because it is a town, and not a Sovereign State like Alberta.....Each Province already has a Parliament, a Head of State and an democratically elected Prime Minister in Alberta that would be Ed Stelmach now.....If the majority of Albertan's decide to leave TROC can do nothing except wring their little hands stamp their little feet and knash their gums......Like some are doing right now......

[jdobbin]

The Clarity Act is not apart of the Constitution at all and can and will be ignored by any Province that wishes to withdraw from the Confederation......Under the 1982 Constitution that some here don't seem to have read, if Alberta calls a referendum of it's citizen's on a constitutional matter, the constitution says that Ottawa must negotiate......UEL's are legal all over the world......Alberta obtained full and complete ownership of all land trees grass and water and oil in 1930 with a Constitutional Amendment......Fort McMurray can't leave Alberta because it is a town, and not a Sovereign State like Alberta.....Each Province already has a Parliament, a Head of State and an democratically elected Prime Minister in Alberta that would be Ed Stelmach now.....If the majority of Albertan's decide to leave TROC can do nothing except wring their little hands stamp their little feet and knash their gums......Like some are doing right now......

Or they can choose to fight. Everyone assumes this will be peaceful.

This is purely academic. Support for separation in Alberta is so small that they couldn't elect a dogcatcher.

[rbacon]

The support for Independence in Alberta runs normally at a steady 25% and as high as 40% without a leader....That is pretty high, almost on a par with Quebec.....If TROC chose to fight which they wouldn't do we would wipe them out........I don't think Alberta's best friend and neighbor Uncle Sam would like TROC trying to shut off Alberta oil going over the border......

[jdobbin]

The support for Independence in Alberta runs normally at a steady 25% and as high as 40% without a leader....That is pretty high, almost on a par with Quebec.....If TROC chose to fight which they wouldn't do we would wipe them out........I don't think Alberta's best friend and neighbor Uncle Sam would like TROC trying to shut off Alberta oil going over the border......

Citation? What a load of crap.

[rbacon]

Citation for old Dobbin.....Also, some politicians and at least one poll have indicated that a much larger percentage of the Albertan population may be at least sympathetic to the notion of secession than would be indicated by election results. In January 2004, Premier Klein told the Canadian edition of Readers Digest that one in four Albertans (25%) were in support of separation. An August 2005 poll published by the Western Standard pegged support for exploring the idea of forming a country at 42% in Alberta and 35.6% across the four Western provinces [4]

[jdobbin]

Citation for old Dobbin.....Also, some politicians and at least one poll have indicated that a much larger percentage of the Albertan population may be at least sympathetic to the notion of secession than would be indicated by election results. In January 2004, Premier Klein told the Canadian edition of Readers Digest that one in four Albertans (25%) were in support of separation. An August 2005 poll published by the Western Standard pegged support for exploring the idea of forming a country at 42% in Alberta and 35.6% across the four Western provinces [4]

I've seen that poll. The question was so vague that no one could figure if it meant separation or standing up for Alberta.

The Separation Party of Alberta can't even muster 1% of the vote.

Good luck with your prospects.

[rbacon]

That is only your opinion Dobbin.....If Klein stated 25% at a time when Alberta Separatist's don't have a leader, and times are good....What will it be when Ottawa comes calling for more foreign aid for TROC and times are bad and they have a leader.......Alberta is far more able to go it without TROC than any other Province......

[jdobbin]

That is only your opinion Dobbin.....If Klein stated 25% at a time when Alberta Separatist's don't have a leader, and times are good....What will it be when Ottawa comes calling for more foreign aid for TROC and times are bad and they have a leader.......Alberta is far more able to go it without TROC than any other Province......

Where on Earth did Klein come up with that number? I have never seen a properly worded poll in Alberta ever stating that 25% of the population was up for separation.

[rbacon]

While you may not have approved of Klein like us Albertan's did for 14 years, those are his words, stated publicly....And I think as the Prime Minister of Alberta he would have a lot more information on the subject than yourself or myself for that matter.....The whole topic of separation in Quebec and Alberta can all be layed at the feet of one man P.ETrudeau.....It was his big Government and Centralist Policies that created the PQ and Quebec Separatists....In fact his memiors state that he himself was a separatist.....His theft of Alberta's resources under NEP created Alberta Separatists....So if you want to blame anyone blame your hero the Commie Ass Kisser Trudeau.....

[jdobbin]

While you may not have approved of Klein like us Albertan's did for 14 years, those are his words, stated publicly....And I think as the Prime Minister of Alberta he would have a lot more information on the subject than yourself or myself for that matter.....The whole topic of separation in Quebec and Alberta can all be layed at the feet of one man P.ETrudeau.....It was his big Government and Centralist Policies that created the PQ and Quebec Separatists....In fact his memiors state that he himself was a separatist.....His theft of Alberta's resources under NEP created Alberta Separatists....So if you want to blame anyone blame your hero the Commie Ass Kisser Trudeau.....

Reported.

I never said one way or the other how I felt about Klein or Trudeau.

I just asked where he came up with the figure he did.

[Figleaf]

...Under the 1982 Constitution that some here don't seem to have read, if Alberta calls a referendum of it's citizen's on a constitutional matter, the constitution says that Ottawa must negotiate.....

Totally wrong. Nothing in the constitution discusses referendums. It's a Supreme Court ruling (not the text of the constitution) that says the federal gov. would have to negotiate with a province whose democratic majority wished to separate from Canada.

....Alberta obtained full and complete ownership of all land trees grass and water and oil in 1930 with a Constitutional Amendment....

False. The Province of Alberta, as a province of Canada, was granted provincial authority respecting resources, not 'ownership'.

..Fort McMurray can't leave Alberta because it is a town, and not a Sovereign State like Alberta....

The crown of Alberta shares split sovereignty with the crown of Canada. If you purport to say that Canadian sovereignty is negotiable, then so to is Alberta sovereignty.

.....If the majority of Albertan's decide to leave TROC ....

They know where the passport office is.

[Figleaf]

Lets turn that around a bit and ask ourselves about Quebecs Bill 101 shall we? What is with that whole pile of crap legislation anyway, and why has Ottawa to this day allowed Quebec to violate the spirit and intent of the constitution. Further to that, what is with Quebecs refusal to sign the 1982 Constitution, and still lay claim to articles of it to protect their own interests?

Lets think about that for a minute then enlighten us with your views of fair and equal treatment under the constitution.

I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to indicate, but regarding your questions:

a-"why has Ottawa to this day allowed Quebec to violate the spirit and intent of the constitution"

b-"what is with Quebecs refusal to sign the 1982 Constitution, and still lay claim to articles of it to protect their own interests?"

A: I think Bill 101 and the use of the notwithstanding clause to protect it has been tested in litigation and found legal. (Though I'm not 100% sure).

B: It's ironic, isn't it?

[Figleaf]

The Clarity Act doesn't provide a means for escape due to it's undemocratic and poorly constructed nature.

My dear fellow, it's brilliantly constructed to achieve it's real purpose.

So really, how does one exercise their democratic will to no longer be part of Canada?

Legally? Well, they can:

-hold a referendum that complies with the Clarity Act and then attempt to negotiate a constitutional amendment of separation with the federal government and the other provinces, OR,

-they can ignore the Clarity Act and attempt to negotiate a constitutional amendment of separation with the federal government and other provinces.

In either case, if the federal government and 7 provinces representing over 50% of the population approves, the amendment passes.