Garth Turner Turfed

Argus · October 19, 2006

Sometimes reading leftists like these two ...

While I'm left of you and Mussolini, I'm decidedly not a leftist.

How many times do I need to do this?

What is it about lefties which requires them to profess they're really not lefties at all?

Okay, mr middle-of-the-road. Tell me what policies you support which are NOT left wing.

Because I have NO trouble at all naming policies I support which ARE left wing. That's what being in the middle really means - you pull some policies from the left, and some from the right.

What right wing policies do you believe in?

Do you consider Castro to be left wing?

Argus · October 19, 2006

So the Cons turfed popular outspoken MP Garth Turner. This from a party that prides itself on free votes and individual opinions. It seems to me that the Conservative party may really be controlled from the top down. I get the feeling they prefer lap dogs to yap dogs. Is there really any difference between red and blue? Maybe it's time to try Green.

I really hope this decision comes back to bite them in the ass.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...c50&k=81442

It's too bad for Garth, but good for Liberals.

It's further proof to everyone - supporters and otherwise - that the Harper "Administration" (as Garth apparently called it!) wants only party robots.

This story has legs, methinks.

Party robots? Aren't Liberal MPs collectively known as "sheep"? Didn't Chretien fire an MP for wanting to keep an election promise? Didn't Jack Layton fire an MP the instant she dared to vote her conscience on a bill?

When was the last time you heard an NDP MP ever express open disagreement with his or her party? Layton's leadership style harkens back to Stalin. Anyone who disagrees is morally contaminated and must be removed.

scribblet · October 19, 2006

Perfect! Exactly as expected ... infighting will be the death of this government.

They're tories, after all -- they just can't help themselves.

Actually, Turner is a Tory....Mackay was a Tory....the rest of them are CCRAPers who conned Canada into thinking they were the party of McDonald...and the Chief.......neo cons.....social cons.....they are far removed from Canada as possible

What is a CCRAPer ? Is that some kind of insult not allowed here?

Ricki Bobbi · October 19, 2006

What is a CCRAPer ? Is that some kind of insult not allowed here?

It is an insult that isn't allowed in the rules but will probably be let slide. You guess the reason....

(Background is it was an insulting acronym used to belittle the Canadian Alliance in its early days of formation.)

The party doesn't exist, never ran an election under that name ... yet lefties won't let it die.

Figleaf · October 19, 2006

in retrospect, i regret ever wasting time responding to argus

Edited July 24, 2007 by Figleaf

Rovik · October 19, 2006

As opposed to the NDP types who get to stand up when Layton tells them and vote exactly how he decides on every issue, or the Liberals who don't even dare voice an opposing opinion in caucus?

Not true. Peter Stoffer supported Canada's role in Afghanistan and he wasn't kicked out of the NDP's caucus.

Rovik · October 19, 2006

It's too bad for Garth, but good for Liberals.

Actually it may be bad for the Liberals (and others as well,) if he decides to join the Green party. For if he did that, it would give the Greens some credibility with having a MP in the House and people who never considered them before, may give them a look.

Personally, if I had to vote tomorrow they would be my second pick, though they have a couple of policies I don't like.

Canadian Blue · October 19, 2006

My second choice would have to be the Green party as well. Despite disagreeing with many of their social policies.

jdobbin · October 19, 2006

Turner to consider becoming Canada's first Green Party MP.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/turner_options

geoffrey · October 19, 2006

As opposed to the NDP types who get to stand up when Layton tells them and vote exactly how he decides on every issue, or the Liberals who don't even dare voice an opposing opinion in caucus?

Not true. Peter Stoffer supported Canada's role in Afghanistan and he wasn't kicked out of the NDP's caucus.

How about Desjarlais? Kicked out because of her moral beliefs. That really did it with me, Layton is incompetent and completely void of respect for others.

Who speaks in the NDP other than Layton? Oh that's right, no one.

Turner to consider becoming Canada's first Green Party MP.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/turner_options

Floor crosser! Floor crosser! Those Greens!! Completely void of ethics like the Emerson switch eh? Pfftt...

Give me a break, he'll be the first and last Green MP. No one really supports irrelevance.

scribblet · October 19, 2006

Apparantly one part of his blog tells what would be in the next budget, several of those items were from confidential proposals being discussed in caucus- that is what got them angry enough to expel him.

If this is true, then he did indeed violate caucus confidentiality, and deserves the boot. The Ontario caucus voted to expell him from their caucus and then brought the same motion to the entire party caucus which agreed.

Ricki Bobbi · October 20, 2006

Apparantly one part of his blog tells what would be in the next budget, several of those items were from confidential proposals being discussed in caucus- that is what got them angry enough to expel him.
If this is true, then he did indeed violate caucus confidentiality, and deserves the boot. The Ontario caucus voted to expell him from their caucus and then brought the same motion to the entire party caucus which agreed.

Could be, but something tells me more than just leaking budget material would have caused this.

I asked one of Garth's caucus colleagues about Garth speaking out right after the cabinet was named.

The MP made a very good point. All MPs like talking to the media and getting their names in the paper, what made Garth special that he didn't have to be a team player?

gerryhatrick · October 20, 2006

Apparantly one part of his blog tells what would be in the next budget, several of those items were from confidential proposals being discussed in caucus- that is what got them angry enough to expel him.
If this is true, then he did indeed violate caucus confidentiality, and deserves the boot.

If that serious allegation had any merit I suspect it would be plastered around, no? I've already looked at the garth turner links and watched the press conference and seen none of it.

Can you provide a link for this allegation you have labelled as apparent?

MightyAC · October 20, 2006

Apparantly one part of his blog tells what would be in the next budget, several of those items were from confidential proposals being discussed in caucus- that is what got them angry enough to expel him.
If this is true, then he did indeed violate caucus confidentiality, and deserves the boot. The Ontario caucus voted to expell him from their caucus and then brought the same motion to the entire party caucus which agreed.

The Ontario caucus mentioned that he violated caucus confidentiality but has not and will not provide any information to defend that claim. Garth did speculate on what he thought would be in the next budget. However his is not at all privy to that information. He himself was on the outside lobbying Flaherty for what he felt best served his constituents. He was aggressively pushing for income splitting. Anyway, on his blog he speculated in very general terms that we'd see another 1 point drop in GST among some other things but that income splitting is not a priority for the finance minister.

So far it seems that the claim of violation of caucus confidentiality is unfounded. It also seems that this incarnation of the blue team does not believe in free thinking or free speaking MPs. One has to wonder how free they are to vote as well. Methinks the party mascot must be a lap dog.

Argus · October 20, 2006

What is it about lefties which requires them to profess they're really not lefties at all?

I can't speak for leftists, but I haven't noticed many of them denying they are leftist. Can you give examples?

Uh, you?

Okay, mr middle-of-the-road. Tell me what policies you support which are NOT left wing.

Well, I'm not 'middle-of-the-road" either. That implies a sort of mushy moderation or the notion of picking ideas from either side in service of some vain concept of 'moderation'. Sort of like Michael Hardner.

Are you suggesting you're right wing?

But to answer your question policies I support that are not left wing include: a free market economy, the primacy of the individual as the basic unit of society, equality of opportunity but not necessarily of outcomes, limited state authority, ... probably others that don't come to mind right now.

The NDP supports most of that, too, at least publicly.

What right wing policies do you believe in?

I guess that depends on what policies you think are right wing. Give me some examples and I'll test them.

Do you support abortion on demand? Same sex marriage? Affirmative action? Multiculturalism? Official Bilingualism? The Kelona Accord? Kyoto Accord? Immigration? The Young Offenders Act? Labour Unions? Gun Control? Banning private health care?

I'm betting yes.

Ricki Bobbi · October 20, 2006

Here's a vquote from the caucus chair, Rahim Jaffer:

“They had concerns about confidentiality, lack of respect of confidentiality through discussions in their caucus, also issues of personal attacks on various members that had come up on blog sites related to Mr. Turner at different times,

Tough thing with blog sites, easily edited to remove offending material.

Asking for proof that Garth didn't respect caucus confidentiality is pretty easy to do. Could be that confidential information has been leaked, but still isn't publicly available. So by 'painting' the Conservatives as out of line for not providing support is pretty weak.

Regardless Garth is gone and the Conservatives are better off without him.

gc1765 · October 20, 2006

Floor crosser! Floor crosser! Those Greens!! Completely void of ethics like the Emerson switch eh? Pfftt...

The situations are very different. Emerson was not kicked out of the liberal party. Turner was not offered a cabinet position, and has not really changed his 'views' (yet).

Give me a break, he'll be the first and last Green MP. No one really supports irrelevance.

I dunno, the bloc has 50 seats :lol:

Canadian Blue · October 20, 2006

I think the Green party would be a great addition to the house, imagine if they could garner enought support to completely wipe out the Liberal party and become a viable alternative for government. That would be a great thing for the country, I checked out their platform and agreed with quite a few of the positions.

geoffrey · October 20, 2006

I think the Green party would be a great addition to the house, imagine if they could garner enought support to completely wipe out the Liberal party and become a viable alternative for government. That would be a great thing for the country, I checked out their platform and agreed with quite a few of the positions.

Oh my goodness. I'm a young person myself, yet I see their party as simply a group of idealist young kids thinking they can change the world.

I guess one term in opposition would change that in a hurry. It takes alot of money to run a party like the CPC or the Liberals... even the NDP. That money doesn't come from the environment lobby.

jdobbin · October 20, 2006

I guess one term in opposition would change that in a hurry. It takes alot of money to run a party like the CPC or the Liberals... even the NDP. That money doesn't come from the environment lobby.

Some of the biggest support for the Greens comes from Alberta.

Ricki Bobbi · October 20, 2006

Some of the biggest support for the Greens comes from Alberta.

It was the province the party did the strongest in during the January election.

Here's why. The Liberals and NDP hold Alberta in such contempt that some people looking for a protest vote wanted a fresh and different party to "lend" their vote to. The Green's success in Alberta was due as much to disgust with the Liberals and NDP as it was to their actual policies.

Figleaf · October 20, 2006

[Come to think of it, it was getting boring around here anyway ... same old rightwingers suffering from argument impairment spouting the same old discredited lies and attacking people whenever they feel like it. :yawn: ]

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

MightyAC · October 20, 2006

I'd wager that most people slamming the Green party as lefty, idealists don't have a clue what their actual policies are. I encourage people to actually go to their site and read about their policies. You'll find they are far more than a group of environmentalists and they tend to offer solutions to problems rather than just criticizing the government.

I think Garth would be great for the Green party...but I hope if that's what he decides to do he waits until the next election. Based on the way our BS electoral system works it is just wrong to change parties after being elected. I have no problem with anyone sitting as an independent but actually crossing the floor like Emerson or Stronach is disgusting.

I doubt he will just cross the floor without a looming election. He has too much integrity to do that. He may actually be invited back to the Cons....he's been part of the Blue team a lot longer than Steve-O.

Figleaf · October 20, 2006

Steve-O. Yes, that's it! The Harperites are running their own version of political "Jackass" movie!

Canadian Blue · October 20, 2006

I'd wager that most people slamming the Green party as lefty, idealists don't have a clue what their actual policies are. I encourage people to actually go to their site and read about their policies. You'll find they are far more than a group of environmentalists and they tend to offer solutions to problems rather than just criticizing the government.

Thats what I admire about the Green's, in all honesty I think a large proportion of Albertan's would choose the Green's over the Liberals and NDP. They seem more moderate towards issues such as abortion and gay marriage, and I think alot of people would love to see their democratic reforms implemented. But I think they may need a different leader down the road, one that can appeal to a broader base of Canadian's.