The Other Provinces During The Rae Era

[Remiel]

I am starting this topic because of the Liberal leadership race, because I want to know how the provinces other than Ontario were doing during the recession of the early 90s, during which Rae was premier. Were there any others that were as hard hit as Ontario under him? Did any pull out OK? Basically, how did they all compare at the time?

[M.Dancer]

Well I can tell you Montreal was in the shitter.......

[Shakeyhands]

I'm guilty myself of using the recession argument while with Rae, I too wonder how the other provinces handled things and how they were doing, great question.

btw, my father was telling me this weekend about starting his business in the 80's and how they were helped immeasurably by the government and the programs designed to help start these types of companys. The small manufacturing company went on to employ over 100 people at its height and gave many a start in life, my dad loved to hire graduates of the local community college. Sadly it downsized considerably with the advent of NAFTA as it became cost prohibitive to manufacture here in Canada.

[jdobbin]

Alberta was straining under Don Getty. They capped him and put Klein in in 1992. He cut costs so much that Albertans themselves were shocked when he blew up a Calgary hospital to save money. Were it not for a recovery in oil, Alberta would have had a deficit as crippling as Ontario's.

[geoffrey]

Alberta was straining under Don Getty. They capped him and put Klein in in 1992. He cut costs so much that Albertans themselves were shocked when he blew up a Calgary hospital to save money. Were it not for a recovery in oil, Alberta would have had a deficit as crippling as Ontario's.

Why must you invent facts? It seems like it's just a Klein didn't do anything attitude that most Liberal minded people in Alberta have. Unfortunately, oil prices were at an all time low during the 90's (well, since the 60's), didn't recover until 2000 and we still paid off a great deal of debt while running consistant surpluses.

[MLP]

I recall reading that Ontario's recession continued for another 2-3 years after it had ended for the other provinces/states that had previously been performing on par with it. I'll try to find some more precise data when I finish work.

While it's not fair to blame Rae for the recession, his track record of mismanagement throughout it didn't help one bit. When he first took over from the Liberals, the yearly deficit was $1b. On his first budget, it was already up to $10b, and by the time he was ousted in 1995, the yearly deficit had reached a ridiculous $17b.

Keynesian economics had already been debunked before he even took office, but that didn't stop him from trying to spend his way out of the recession, ultimately paving the way for 2 consecutive Harris terms.

[B. Max]

Oil prices spiked in 1990 and then fell right back just as fast. They remained reasonably steady through the 90's but over all were rather low. Alberta still managed to come out of the 1990 recession while Ont. remained in recession as did BC through the late 90's mostly as a result of the ndp. While Alberta's oil patch was growing BC's oil patch was not.

[jdobbin]

Why must you invent facts? It seems like it's just a Klein didn't do anything attitude that most Liberal minded people in Alberta have. Unfortunately, oil prices were at an all time low during the 90's (well, since the 60's), didn't recover until 2000 and we still paid off a great deal of debt while running consistant surpluses.

What facts are you disputing? Getty had a deficit. If Klein hadn't come around when he did, the PCs were in a spot of trouble. Getty lost his own seat in the election in 1989.

Klein cut costs. Part of that was blowing up a hospital in Calgary.

Oil prices stabilized athough it wasn't the best of time economically because they were too low to trigger major oil sands development. Oil companies cut the fat and this coincided with a recession nationally. There was a spike in 1990 and again in 1995. They crashed in 1999 but within a year began a steady rise up. Steady oil revenues plus the very deep cuts in service helped elimiate the deficit. Skyrocketing oil helped Alberta eleiminate the debt.

At any rate this discussion was about what was happening in Canada when Rae was in power. The fact is the PCs were in trouble for a huge deficit. It didn't disappear overnight in Alberta. Stabilizing oil prices did help Alberta.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif

[geoffrey]

And Rae's spending damned Ontario to a major debtload. His economics are horribly flawed and it showed in the performance of both his government and businesses in his province.

We see Alberta come out of the 90's smelling like roses and Ontario crushed by constant deficits and a much larger debt.

Rae has no excuse, he screwed up big time. Hopefully Ontario won't forgive him. The last thing we need is Canada lead by this incompetent planner.

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil. Firstly, it's a ridiculous premise. Ontario would be 3rd world without manufacturing so why go there to begin with. Secondly, Klein saw there was a recession, and cut the government spending back to what was affordable, giving us the prosperity that we enjoy today. It was not luck, like Ontarians seem to always claim.

[jdobbin]

And Rae's spending damned Ontario to a major debtload. His economics are horribly flawed and it showed in the performance of both his government and businesses in his province.

We see Alberta come out of the 90's smelling like roses and Ontario crushed by constant deficits and a much larger debt.

Rae has no excuse, he screwed up big time. Hopefully Ontario won't forgive him. The last thing we need is Canada lead by this incompetent planner.

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil. Firstly, it's a ridiculous premise. Ontario would be 3rd world without manufacturing so why go there to begin with. Secondly, Klein saw there was a recession, and cut the government spending back to what was affordable, giving us the prosperity that we enjoy today. It was not luck, like Ontarians seem to always claim.

I wasn't defending Rae's tenure as premier. I was indicating what was happening in our wealthiest province at the same time frame.

Rae certainly takes his fair share of the blame for Ontario's demise. The Conservatives under Harris balanced the budget but his Conservative successor put it right back up there again. Some believe it was the tax cut that Harris brought in just before he left that resulted in the shortfall. That is probably half the story. The rest of the story was that cuts to infrastructure and services put a strain on the province and spending was restored just to keep up with the failures like Walkerton.

Alberta's own government has attributed oil revenues as being a very strong contributing factor in helping to reduce the deficit. It was the main point of the Alberta Advantage as the government used to call it. It wasn't all just cutbacks.

http://www.albertafmc.com/final_report_2.html

Harris's government beat back the deficit but lacked the revenues for the next Conservative government to not plunge right back into deficit.

[Shakeyhands]

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil. Firstly, it's a ridiculous premise. Ontario would be 3rd world without manufacturing so why go there to begin with. Secondly, Klein saw there was a recession, and cut the government spending back to what was affordable, giving us the prosperity that we enjoy today. It was not luck, like Ontarians seem to always claim.

Please explain what Alberta would be without oil, what else is there to fall back on? I understand that a bunch o companies moved offices there, but could that really sustain the entire province? just wondering.

[geoffrey]

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil. Firstly, it's a ridiculous premise. Ontario would be 3rd world without manufacturing so why go there to begin with. Secondly, Klein saw there was a recession, and cut the government spending back to what was affordable, giving us the prosperity that we enjoy today. It was not luck, like Ontarians seem to always claim.

Please explain what Alberta would be without oil, what else is there to fall back on? I understand that a bunch o companies moved offices there, but could that really sustain the entire province? just wondering.

What does it matter, oil won't ever just stop exisiting. What would Newfies have without fish? Such sillyness.

[B. Max]

Please explain what Alberta would be without oil, what else is there to fall back on? I understand that a bunch o companies moved offices there, but could that really sustain the entire province? just wondering.

Right now Alberta is carrying the whole country. The oil patch is not simply drilling a hole in the ground and that's the end of it, it's just the beginning. The list of materials that go into it is almost endless and come from all over.

[Shakeyhands]

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil. Firstly, it's a ridiculous premise. Ontario would be 3rd world without manufacturing so why go there to begin with. Secondly, Klein saw there was a recession, and cut the government spending back to what was affordable, giving us the prosperity that we enjoy today. It was not luck, like Ontarians seem to always claim.

Please explain what Alberta would be without oil, what else is there to fall back on? I understand that a bunch o companies moved offices there, but could that really sustain the entire province? just wondering.

What does it matter, oil won't ever just stop exisiting. What would Newfies have without fish? Such sillyness.

No idea about the fish, however you stated that, and I quote -

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil.

So I am wondering what you base that argument on, where would Alberta be without oil?

[geoffrey]

I dispute that Alberta would have as large as debt as Ontario without oil.

So I am wondering what you base that argument on, where would Alberta be without oil?

That quote in context is a little different. We were talking about oil prices in the 90's and debt. I still contend that with the very low royalties (like pennies, just a couple billion a year total) that Alberta was pulling in for the 90's, we paid off debt while Ontario making hay with their industries piled on debt.

Without oil means without $30+ oil. Below that it becomes far less significant than eastern politicans like to think.

[August1991]

While it's not fair to blame Rae for the recession, his track record of mismanagement throughout it didn't help one bit. When he first took over from the Liberals, the yearly deficit was $1b. On his first budget, it was already up to $10b, and by the time he was ousted in 1995, the yearly deficit had reached a ridiculous $17b.

I think that's a fair assessment. True, Rae's NDP took office at the start of a recession (the same recession that saw Bush Snr get turfed). But then Rae's NDP decided to increase spending when the revenues weren't there. (I don't think he was conciously following a Keynesian-style policy.) One of their first decisions was to increase dramatically welfare payments. If I'm not mistaken, a single person on welfare in Ontario in the early 1990s received over $1000/month.

Like most Leftist experiments, Rae ran out of other people's money - in his case, it just happened sooner because of the recession.

Rae admitted this during the Liberal debate. As he put it, if he erred, it was on the side of "compassion". IOW, Rae was willing to take money from Person A and give it to Person B and he considers spending someone else's money compassion. Rae's a tax-and-spend Leftist who at least respects the market, free trade and has a semblance of understanding some basic principles in foreign affairs.

And Rae's also a vaudeville showman. If the Liberals pick him, he'll be entertaining.

Right now Alberta is carrying the whole country.

It's frightening to think that many Albertans probably believe as you do. Dog meet tail.

[jdobbin]

That quote in context is a little different. We were talking about oil prices in the 90's and debt. I still contend that with the very low royalties (like pennies, just a couple billion a year total) that Alberta was pulling in for the 90's, we paid off debt while Ontario making hay with their industries piled on debt.

Without oil means without $30+ oil. Below that it becomes far less significant than eastern politicans like to think.

What happened was that Alberta ended its deficit, not the debt. That came when oil revenues started jumping in 1999. Alberta wasn't the only province that reduced its deficit. Manitoba and Saskatchewan followed by other provinces came next.

[scribblet]

The NCC will be ready to take on Bob Rae if he should win the leadership and remind him of his record as Ontario Premier. They call it Rae’s Ravings

Liberal leadership candidate Bob Rae recently gave the National Citizens Coalition a plug.

When asked by reporters if the Conservatives would attack his record as Premier, here's how he responded:

"I think it absolutely wouldn't work and it would be about as relevant as my spending an entire campaign talking about Stephen Harper's career as president of the National Citizen's Coalition. I don't think that's what the next election is going to be about."

Of course, Rae should remember the NCC.

We are the ones who helped drive him out of office when his socialist agenda nearly ruined Ontario’s economy.

If he becomes Liberal leader, we will have to remind the rest of Canada about that record.

[jdobbin]

If he becomes Liberal leader, we will have to remind the rest of Canada about that record.

And Harper will have how own record to defend. It certainly hasn't put him in majority contention yet.

Of course, he is free to pull the plug now to see if he can do it.

[scribblet]

If he becomes Liberal leader, we will have to remind the rest of Canada about that record.

And Harper will have how own record to defend. It certainly hasn't put him in majority contention yet.

Of course, he is free to pull the plug now to see if he can do it.

His record is pretty good so far, not to mention some decisive leadership for a change. The liberals will try probably successfully after Christmas break to bring down the gov't, get ready for another winter election. They are gearing up now.

[Higgly]

His record is pretty good so far...

Certainly if I were George Bush or Ehud Olmert I might think so.

I'm hoping for another minority government. The guy's too much of a crackpot to be trusted with absolute power.

[B. Max]

Right now Alberta is carrying the whole country. It's frightening to think that many Albertans probably believe as you do. Dog meet tail.

What's frightening about it.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readm...v=nr&id=743