Bob Rae out ahead in poll of Canadians

[Mimas]

A pollution tax is exactly what we need. We are not going to screw Alberta, we are going to cut their free ride on the taxpayers' backs ...

You've got to be freakin kidding me. Let's cut the Newfies free ride too, ok? Holy crap you've got such a messed up sense of entitlement to other's money.

(by cutting subsidies to oil and gas), stop favouring oil and gas polluters while applying more stringent pollution rules to other industries, and protect manufacturing and other export industries from being ravaged by the oil dollar (as the Canadian dollar is referred to these days).

So cut oil and gas subsidies to subsidise manufacturing? Way to go Trudeau, why not bring in the NEP tomorrow?

If that's what Rae stands for, I can promise you even the Liberals won't elect him.

If Albertans want more money, they should charge the oil companies' bosses in Texas a fair price for their resources. As it i,s Alberta is almost giving away its resoures by charging the lowest fees in the world. The current model of oil companies free riding on the backs of Albertans and Albertans free riding on all taxpayers' backs doesn't work so well. A pollution tax can set things straight. I'll vote for anyone who will implement it!

What we charge oil companies is an Alberta issue, not at all to do with Canada.

What right does Ottawa have to come in and enforce their dillusional sense of protectionism over the people of Alberta?

Did you lose your job or something when the Ontario industry fell apart from the lack of continued subsidies through the 90's? Why do you hate the hen that lays the golden eggs so much? It makes no sense.

Dude, the right place for the oil and gas industry is with the asbestos, tobacco, and CFC industries. That's exactly where oil and gas (and coal) ought to be. The people of Alberta a getting a small piece of the benefits from the poison pie. Everyone else just gets poison. I told you that favourable treatment of your oil and gas is killing jobs elsewhere in the country. As an Ontarian, I pay for that too. Don't tell me that you can force me to treat you favourably because you live in Alberta and treat poor Joe in NFLD like crap because he lost his manufacturing job due to a Canadian dollar gone insane thanks to your oil.

I'm your worst nightmare, geoff. I drive a Prius. Barely. Because I usually walk or bike to work. Physical activity is good for me and your oil is bad. And there are lots of evil people like me popping up everywhere. You can keep driving your gas guzzling pick up truck and waste your clean coal electricity and when your kids have asthma and you need a hip replacemed because your hip is damaged by your bulging wasteline don't ask me to pay your health-care bills. No matter how much you kick and scream, the pollution tax is coming and oil and gas is on its way to join asbestos and tobacco. You will be better off just pushing your government to decrease its dependence on oil revenue and diversify.

[Mimas]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Not quite true. The tax rate on the bottom tax bracket was raised from 15% to 15.5%. That affects everyone since a portion of everyone's income is in the bottom tax bracket.

You're right of course. However, that tax increase was more punishing to those who earn the least than it was to those who earn the most.

Of course it is. But that's how we always cut taxes - give the greatest benefit to the richest and kick the poorest. Harper didn't do anything in terms of tax cuts that Martin didn't do, or Harris, or Campbell, etc.

[gc1765]

So cut oil and gas subsidies to subsidise manufacturing? Way to go Trudeau, why not bring in the NEP tomorrow?

What about cutting all subsidies? The only argument I can think for subsidizing businesses is to prevent job losses if the company goes under. I imagine it's probably cheaper to pay a company which employs people than it is to pay them EI. Is there any threat of people loosing jobs if the government stops subsidizing the oil & gas industry (I'm not sure how much if any they do subsidize it, I'll have to read more up on that)?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't taking a shot at Alberta, I realize you give a lot in transfer payments. How would you feel if oil and gas subsidies were removed along with transfer payments?

[Mimas]

So cut oil and gas subsidies to subsidise manufacturing? Way to go Trudeau, why not bring in the NEP tomorrow?

What about cutting all subsidies? The only argument I can think for subsidizing businesses is to prevent job losses if the company goes under. I imagine it's probably cheaper to pay a company which employs people than it is to pay them EI. Is there any threat of people loosing jobs if the government stops subsidizing the oil & gas industry (I'm not sure how much if any they do subsidize it, I'll have to read more up on that)?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't taking a shot at Alberta, I realize you give a lot in transfer payments. How would you feel if oil and gas subsidies were removed along with transfer payments?

That would be the commies trying to ravage Alberta.

I would ban subsidies unless it was for new but promising startups which have good potential for economic and job growth to help them start and for established industries that temporarily need help and failure would cause huge job losses. None of these dead industries that live on subsidies for years and decades or established industries that are profitable as hell anyway. Oil and gas is the most profitable industry in the country and what do we do? Ottawa sends our tax dollars in the billions to the oil companies, then Albertan taxpayers send billions back to Ottawa. So our tax dollars go back and forth with large chunks going to Texas in each round. What a great way to fund foreign billionaires.

[normanchateau]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Not quite true. The tax rate on the bottom tax bracket was raised from 15% to 15.5%. That affects everyone since a portion of everyone's income is in the bottom tax bracket.

You're right of course. However, that tax increase was more punishing to those who earn the least than it was to those who earn the most.

Of course it is. But that's how we always cut taxes - give the greatest benefit to the richest and kick the poorest. Harper didn't do anything in terms of tax cuts that Martin didn't do, or Harris, or Campbell, etc.

In 2005, Martin lowered the personal income tax rate for the lowest tax bracket. In relative terms, wouldn't that be more advantageous to those who earn the least and less advantageous to those who earn the most?

[Argus]

There is probably a lot more in Harper's past that would turn Canadians off than there is in Rae's past.

That's my take on it. For example, while most Canadians know that Harper opposed same sex marriage, the media have done a dismal job in informing Canadians that he also voted against making it a hate crime to advocate or promote the killing of homosexuals. Sure, the political junkies on this board have heard it multiple times

Far, far too many times. What we can't quite figure out is why you keep bringing it up - again and again and again and again, on topic after topic, no matter whater it's China or Afghanistan or Bob Rae.

And then you say you don't believe in hate crime legislation anyway.

[Argus]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Sputtering nonsense.

[Mimas]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Not quite true. The tax rate on the bottom tax bracket was raised from 15% to 15.5%. That affects everyone since a portion of everyone's income is in the bottom tax bracket.

You're right of course. However, that tax increase was more punishing to those who earn the least than it was to those who earn the most.

Of course it is. But that's how we always cut taxes - give the greatest benefit to the richest and kick the poorest. Harper didn't do anything in terms of tax cuts that Martin didn't do, or Harris, or Campbell, etc.

In 2005, Martin lowered the personal income tax rate for the lowest tax bracket. In relative terms, wouldn't that be more advantageous to those who earn the least and less advantageous to those who earn the most?

Yes, and that's exactly why he lost the election. That would have given all working Canadians the same amount of tax savings (about $330/person) but it would have given business absolutely nothing. Harper on the other hand, was to give business billions in GST tax cuts. Martin's defeat in the election was the fault of his own policies. If he had stuck to giving big tax breaks to business and the wealthy as he did in the previous 11 years, I'm pretty sure that he would still be running the country.

[Mimas]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Sputtering nonsense.

Will you keep it down? We already established that you live in an imaginary world were either the facts don't matter or you make them up. No need to interfere in other people's discussions by just making noise.

[scribblet]

That's my take on it. For example, while most Canadians know that Harper opposed same sex marriage, the media have done a dismal job in informing Canadians that he also voted against making it a hate crime to advocate or promote the killing of homosexuals. Sure, the political junkies on this board have heard it multiple times

Far, far too many times. What we can't quite figure out is why you keep bringing it up - again and again and again and again, on topic after topic, no matter whater it's China or Afghanistan or Bob Rae.

And then you say you don't believe in hate crime legislation anyway.

Mind boggling isn't it - talke about an obsessive compulsive disorder.

[Argus]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Sputtering nonsense.

Will you keep it down? We already established that you live in an imaginary world were either the facts don't matter or you make them up. No need to interfere in other people's discussions by just making noise.

My noise, unlike yours, at least has the advantage of being honest, succinct and to the point.

[normanchateau]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Sputtering nonsense.

Will you keep it down? We already established that you live in an imaginary world were either the facts don't matter or you make them up. No need to interfere in other people's discussions by just making noise.

My noise, unlike yours, at least has the advantage of being honest, succinct and to the point.

Succinct and to the point anyway.

[gc1765]

Sputtering nonsense.

It's not "sputtering nonsense", it's a FACT.

[normanchateau]

Sputtering nonsense.

It's not "sputtering nonsense", it's a FACT.

Don't confuse him with facts.

[gc1765]

Sputtering nonsense.

It's not "sputtering nonsense", it's a FACT.

Don't confuse him with facts.

[Argus]

Sputtering nonsense.

It's not "sputtering nonsense", it's a FACT.

Don't confuse him with facts.

If either of you offered up any facts I'd certainly be confused. Or surprised, at any rate.

[Mimas]

Rae will raise your taxes,

It remains to be seen what Rare will do but Harper already raised our taxes. On July 1st, 2006, the personal income tax rate on those who earned the least was raised from 15% to 15.5%.

Sputtering nonsense.

Will you keep it down? We already established that you live in an imaginary world were either the facts don't matter or you make them up. No need to interfere in other people's discussions by just making noise.

My noise, unlike yours, at least has the advantage of being honest, succinct and to the point.

The fact is that the Conservative government raised the tax on the lowest tax bracket from 15% to 15.5%.

You call that fact "sputtering nonsense". You pretend that things that are real aren't real because you don't like them. That isn't healthy man. That's how cults operate - ignore reality and insist on lies even when they are obvious.

[gc1765]

If either of you offered up any facts I'd certainly be confused...

Don't confuse him with facts.

I guess you're right, normanchateau, we presented the facts and now he's confused

[geoffrey]

What about cutting all subsidies? The only argument I can think for subsidizing businesses is to prevent job losses if the company goes under. I imagine it's probably cheaper to pay a company which employs people than it is to pay them EI. Is there any threat of people loosing jobs if the government stops subsidizing the oil & gas industry (I'm not sure how much if any they do subsidize it, I'll have to read more up on that)?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't taking a shot at Alberta, I realize you give a lot in transfer payments. How would you feel if oil and gas subsidies were removed along with transfer payments?

Actually I think the government should get out of the business financing business altogether. Tax incentives to reach socially desirable outcomes, maybe, but no more loan guarntees or anything silly like that. It just encourages people to rely on the government and make inferior product that can't compete internationally... see our auto industry.

I would ban subsidies unless it was for new but promising startups which have good potential for economic and job growth to help them start

Congrats, the oil sands is a promising startup that has great potential for economic and job growth... hell, it's been the best thing for Newfoundland since the Cod.

None of these dead industries that live on subsidies for years and decades or established industries that are profitable as hell anyway.

So you'd cut all funding and tax breaks for the auto companies? GM, Ford, all of them. No more special deals? Fantastic. Good luck getting elected in SW Ontario.

Oil and gas is the most profitable industry in the country and what do we do? Ottawa sends our tax dollars in the billions to the oil companies, then Albertan taxpayers send billions back to Ottawa. So our tax dollars go back and forth with large chunks going to Texas in each round. What a great way to fund foreign billionaires.

It's only profitable now, how are you going to encourage that capital stay here when oil is much lower in price? Auto industry benefits from relatively stable pricing long term, oil is a crapshoot in predicting long term trends.

[normanchateau]

If either of you offered up any facts I'd certainly be confused...

Don't confuse him with facts.

I guess you're right, normanchateau, we presented the facts and now he's confused

I think with some people, the facts need to be presented repeatedly before they penetrate. Of course this will likely confuse him as he so gratuitously acknowledged when he said "If either of you offered up any facts I'd certainly be confused..."

In 2005, the Liberals reduced the lowest personal income tax rate from 16% to 15%. On July 1, 2006, the Conservatives raised the lowest rate to 15.5%. Here are the facts from Jim Flaherty's federal budget:

FEDERAL BUDGET (May 2, 2006)

Areas Which Impact Payroll

The federal budget presented today by the Honourable James Flaherty, Minister of Finance provided changes that will impact the payroll community, directly and indirectly, in 2006 and over the next few years. The Finance Minister, in reading his budget document, did reiterate that any additional changes for 2006 will be effective July 1st, 2006.

Personal Income Tax Rates and Basic Personal Amounts

1. Personal Income Tax Rates

The lowest personal income tax rate will be reduced to 15 per cent from 16 per cent effective January 1, 2005. The rate will be 15.5 per cent effective July 1, 2006. Accordingly, the full-year rate for 2005 will be 15 per cent, for 2006, 15.25 per cent and, for the 2007 and subsequent taxation years, 15.5 per cent. For the 2005 taxation year the 15 per cent rate applies to taxable incomes of up to $35,595. For the 2006 taxation year the 15.25 per cent rate will apply to taxable incomes of up to $36,378.

[Michael Hardner]

Norman has now posted the fact.

It should be easy for people to refute it, or not, without insults shouldn't it ?

[Canadian Blue]

MH, no matter what it seems every thread simply turns into petty insults and debate between the Harper haters and the Harper lovers.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, it's not necessary. If there's a fact out there, it can be disputed or confirmed. If someone turns out to be wrong, then they can admit it and move on - it's not the end of the world.

[normanchateau]

Norman has now posted the fact.

It should be easy for people to refute it, or not, without insults shouldn't it ?

Finally, a voice of reason. I wish there were more.

And no, that wasn't intended as an insult to anyone.

[Argus]

Norman has now posted the fact.

It should be easy for people to refute it, or not, without insults shouldn't it ?

Harper did not raise taxes. The Tories replaced the Liberals, so ideas, policies and programs proposed by the Liberals, but which had not yet been implimented could be cancelled and replaced by Tory proposals. Nothing unusual about this. The tax cut proposed by the Liberals was essentially an election promise. Surprise, surprise, when they did not get elected, that promise was NOT carried out by the tories.

Is this too complicated for you folks?

With Paul Martin's minority government facing the threat of defeat within days, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale has introduced a package that combines voter-friendly income tax cuts along with corporate tax cuts and new spending on education, immigration and trade.

The tax cuts were proposed in mid November. Very shortly thereafter we were in an election.

Goodale proposes tax cuts on election eve