Liberal contenders slam Harper for 'anti-Israeli' accusation

[jbg]

BUMP for answer to question.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The Israeli President is accused of rape.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/15/...rape/index.html

Wow that's some crazy stuff. Anybody know who his likely successor is?

[gerryhatrick]

Alright then, I'll try again.

Do you accept that Israel has been accused of war crimes by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and do you lend any credence to those accusations whatsoever?

Israel is well-known for prosecuting their own war crimes. If these "two major human rights groups" have such evidence they should turn it over to the IDF. If proven, it will be dealt with, against the offending soldiers, harshly.

That is a non-answer.

If you were truely left of center you would value the truth and you would be able to answer a question such as that.

[jbg]

If one believes, as I do, that the Old Testament is pretty good oral history, this way of life preceded Islam. Also preceding Islam (and imported into it) were child sacrifice (now updated as "jihad"), pedophilia, homosexuality and bestiality (remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the fact that many Muslim men prefer the company of young boys), and near-constant intrigue and warfare.

The Israeli President is accused of rape.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/15/...rape/index.html

Does anyone doubt there will be an objective examination and consequences?

[gerryhatrick]

And you're to the left of center, huh?

You deserve a fuller answer than I gave you before.

Further, one of the partners of my firm is a Jamaican black female. We work with her with total disregard for color, gender or nationality.

What minority and/or disadvantaged people have you worked with or helped?

I removed your personal accounts of helping the disadvantaged strictly to save a little space. I left the most interesting comment...your point that you work with a black female (a Jamaican one, no less) without regard for color. The very fact that you would find it worth mentioning in your defense of your ideology tells me that you don't understand of what you speak.

A right of center individual is not necessarily racist. Nor are they precluded from helping the poor.

I have done a great deal of work for the disadvantaged. In keeping with your anecdote, I work with an aboriginal, Chinese, and several black people. The Chinese lady reports to me and has a very difficult time with pronounciation, so I tutor her. I've done a host of other work as part of organizations that help the hungry and the sick. I have also worked for Amnesty International, an organization that champions the oppressed around the world.

I know how married to the truth Amnesty is, regardless of politics or approval. Regardless of how well Israel has investigated itself in the past, an accusation of war crimes by Amnesty is credible.

[jbg]

Thanks GH. Decent answer.

[jdobbin]

Does anyone doubt there will be an objective examination and consequences?

Previous financial and sexual scandals have been swept under the rug.

[betsy]

Muslims believe that all Jews must die!

If that's true Betsy, show me on these muslim sites where that is indicated.:

http://www.macnet.ca/national/index.php

http://www.cmcla.org

http://www.icna.org

http://isna.com

Please do us all a favor and stop the generalization. Yes, there are radicals muslims that believe some crazy things, just as there are crazy and zealous Christians, Jews, and other religion fundamentalists. Your irrational conclusion does more harm than good.

I do not believe that ALL Muslims personally would want to kill Jews!

But I have yet to hear any denunciations from any spokespeople of the Muslim worlds....or any Imams...denouncing SPECIFICALLY those kill-the-Jews protests and rantings of extremists in warring countries.

Oh yeah some go on tv denouncing violence....and saying oh our religion is a peaceful religion.

But the actual war that just erupted in Lebanon...and the natural concern and fear of Jews from being slaughtered.....I've yet to hear that particular issue being addressed by any Muslim leaders....INCLUDING THE LIBERAL LEADERSHIP FRONTRUNNERS!

So I'm a bigot if I say there is something definitely wrong about a people who seem to quietly agree to extremists speaking for the whole Muslim world? If they diasgree....why don't they speak up?

I don't care to hear about the spouts of generalization....all I want to hear is a specific denunciation of violence against a particular group: the Jews.

If being honestly frank about expressing my views based on what's happening is a form of bigotry....let me be a bigot then. I say I'll wear it as a badge of honor!

[Argus]

I know how married to the truth Amnesty is, regardless of politics or approval. Regardless of how well Israel has investigated itself in the past, an accusation of war crimes by Amnesty is credible.

There is truth, and then there is truth.

For example, take animal rights groups. I used to be a (literally) card-carrying member of the Canadian Wildlife Federation. I considered them one of the more responsible and apolitical of environment groups, unlike the likes of Greenpeace and WFAW and such. The difference was they spoke responsibily about wildlife concerns and advocated sensible measures to preserve and protect various at-danger species.

Then they jumped on the seal wagon, probably for the same reason as so many other animal rights groups did - it was popular, and helped raise their profile and money. There was never any reason to be concerned about the welfare of seals. They were never even close to being in danger, and hunting them with clubs was no more inhumane than doing it any other way. Certainly if it had been natives hunting them with clubs as part of their "cultural heritage" there wouldn't have been a peep.

Anyway, Israel is always big news, and provides safe and easy access. And with the long and dreadful history of enmity and violence between the Israelis and the Muslims there are always bound to be some things going on, at whatever level, which can be indignantly criticised. So Israel is an easy target, especially if that's what you're into.

I recall a "boycott" by the international press a year or two back because the Israelis wouldn't give full press credentials to a Palestinian employee of one of the networks. Israel was criticised for violating freedom of the press, etc. etc. No mention was made of a Palestinian Authority law which said any Isareali journalist caught in their territory was subject to the death penalty.

It's that one-sided, deliberate attempt to FIND something to criticise which I find so troubling, and it's especially evident among what you might call the busybody left - which you can certainly find in abundance in human rights groups.

[Figleaf]

The concept of Middle Eastern Muslims as peaceful people is not supported by the history of the region or by current events.

Likewise with Israelis.

[betsy]

But the actual war that just erupted in Lebanon...and the natural concern and fear of Jews from being slaughtered.....I've yet to hear that particular issue being addressed by any Muslim leaders....INCLUDING THE LIBERAL LEADERSHIP FRONTRUNNERS!

And I AM APPALLED by the attitudes shown by all these Liberal LEADERSHIP FRONTRUNNERS! For a party that's purporting to be "brokers of peace".....they'd shown that either they are no more than bigots themselves (for seeming to have no problem with the idea that Hezbollah wants to exterminate Israel)...or they are incapable of seeing the whole picture.

How can you possibly broker peace if you cannot even acknowledge what the real problem is all about?

How can peace be achieved if what you want is for one people (Israel) to acquiesce quietly and agree to drop dead?

If there is any bigotry around here...well it surely does not come from the section who wants to look at both sides with FAIRNESS!

REAL FAIRNESS.

And not just some lip service...or self-deceiving notion that actually spells out one thing: you really don't care.

[Figleaf]

[...

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Betsy, in this nation of ours our politicians are fence sitters by design. We as a people are not yet ready to actually follow a visionary leader. We don't sponsor or support strong leaders. We don't take the leading edge of politics by the point of the sword, we allow the battle to swarm around us instead. It is a problem in this country no doubt, but can you honestly say that you would lay down your life for your nation in their stead? Because that is what it will take to unite the citizens of this nation.

We need a crisis to galvanize our people. That crisis can be either real or contrived but it needs to be raised to the forefront of our imaginations or at least rise to the level of perceptable consequence. Without such a driving force behind it our apathetic population is doomed to fail in political terms.

[betsy]

Betsy, in this nation of ours our politicians are fence sitters by design. We as a people are not yet ready to actually follow a visionary leader. We don't sponsor or support strong leaders. We don't take the leading edge of politics by the point of the sword, we allow the battle to swarm around us instead. It is a problem in this country no doubt, but can you honestly say that you would lay down your life for your nation in their stead? Because that is what it will take to unite the citizens of this nation.

We need a crisis to galvanize our people. That crisis can be either real or contrived but it needs to be raised to the forefront of our imaginations or at least rise to the level of perceptable consequence. Without such a driving force behind it our apathetic population is doomed to fail in political terms.

That is why I find Harper comes out so refreshing.

The way he fought for and got his way at the Francophonie....standing up for the casualties of Israel to be included too.

And now, spelling outright the anti-Semitism that's pervading most of the Liberal contenders.

I don't think I've ever seen a leader in the previous years make a stand the way he does.

[betsy]

All minority groups should stop and take notice of what's unfolding here.

Take a closer look at the way the Liberals had treated another Minority Group: The Jews.

And take a good look at the way Harper stood up for this group.

Who knows maybe tomorrow...it will be your group who'd be treated the same way by the Liberals....and you'd be the one Harper will be standing up for.

There will never be any EQUALITY...unless there is FAIRNESS.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[M.Dancer]

Third, it was a barefaced falsehood.

The charge of anti semitism against one contender, Bob Rae, is laughable. As far as Bob's non support of Israel.....

By 2002, Bobby Rae the Christian had become more Jewish than the Jews. Rae's reading in Judaica was very extensive; so was Rae's feel for the Jews, his Jewish street smarts, so to speak.

The recent dramatic military incursions into the West Bank did not deter Rae from defending Israel and forcefully attacking the one-sided Svend Robinson approach of jumping in and confronting Israel only. In a column in the National Post, Rae dismissed Robinson as "a histrionic crank" whose views are "not a vision of social democracy worthy of support." Rae said he was "parting company" with the NDP over its "handling of the Middle East file."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_zolf/20020423.html

On the otherhand, there might be at least one or two harperites who, while they might publicly support Israel as good messianic policy, privately consider jews the tools of satan........

From 1978 to 1985, Day was assistant pastor and school administrator at the Bentley Christian Centre in Bentley, Alberta. His school taught the Accelerated Christian Education curriculum, which caused some controversy for its alleged anti-semitism. Defending the curriculum publicly led to increased political involvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockwell_Day

[jbg]

Duplicate

[jbg]

Does anyone doubt there will be an objective examination and consequences?

Previous financial and sexual scandals have been swept under the rug.

Which ones?

Alright then, I'll try again.

Do you accept that Israel has been accused of war crimes by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and do you lend any credence to those accusations whatsoever?

Israel is well-known for prosecuting their own war crimes. If these "two major human rights groups" have such evidence they should turn it over to the IDF. If proven, it will be dealt with, against the offending soldiers, harshly.

That is a non-answer.

If you were truely left of center you would value the truth and you would be able to answer a question such as that.

I have zero confidence in the objectivity of those groups, for reasons I have previously outlined. To summarize, in Israel and other open societies, these groups can pry, investigate, even use freedom of information laws to gain access to governmental archives on their so-called violations. Ever try doing that in Saudi Arabia? In open couintries, the worst that happens if a story is inaccurate is that some government official tries to set the record straight. In Saudi Arabia, the "human rights activist" is separated into a head, and the body from the shoulders on down.

The concept of Middle Eastern Muslims as peaceful people is not supported by the history of the region or by current events.

Likewise with Israelis.

Oh puh-lease. When has Israel sent suicide bombers in to attack discoteques or restaurants in any of the surrounding countries that host terrorists?

[jbg]

Then they jumped on the seal wagon, probably for the same reason as so many other animal rights groups did - it was popular, and helped raise their profile and money. There was never any reason to be concerned about the welfare of seals. They were never even close to being in danger, and hunting them with clubs was no more inhumane than doing it any other way. Certainly if it had been natives hunting them with clubs as part of their "cultural heritage" there wouldn't have been a peep.

I would have supported initiatives to save the seals in Saskatchewan, but not those of Newfoundland or Alberta.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[jdobbin]

Which ones?

The Justice minister, the prime minister, former Likud ministers are all accused of different crimes. For months it has been swept under the rug. Ariel Sharon is also accused but because he can't answer questions, it is not being talked about.

Sex and money. It is the stuff of Israeli politics. Most of the time it is swept under the rug but because of Lebanon, the public is in a foul mood.

You can look it up yourself, if you like.

[betsy]

That is why I find Harper comes out so refreshing. ... spelling outright the anti-Semitism that's pervading most of the Liberal contenders.

Betsy, you appear to live in an imaginary world all your own. First, Harper said 'anti-Israel', not 'anti-semite'. Second, he didn't 'spell it out', he made a passing slur. Third, it was a barefaced falsehood.

No, you're the one who lives in a world Liberalism wants you to believe in. So you say anti-Israel....or anti-Semite....does it really matter?

Harper's stance in the Francophonie conference amidst all other leaders of the world...of insisting that Israeli victims (meaning Jews!)...should be included.....along with lebanese victims.

For me, that gesture alone speaks more than A THOUSAND PAGES OF FEEL-GOOD SPEECHES THE LIBERALS SPIN OUT THEIR PROPOGANDA MACHINES!

That Harper's stance is quite eloquent enough!

[M.Dancer]

So you say anti-Israel....or anti-Semite....does it really matter?

Ummm...well...yeah

If someone is anti Zimbawe....should they also be considered anti african?

Now I grant that anti semites are also anti israel, but they are easily smoked out because their language gives them away. They use language which demonizes israelis and jews....for them, israelis don't just have collateral damage, they kill "for fun and profit".....

On the otherhand, people can criticise israel as they would the UK or the USA and yet be a good jew....and if the letters to the editors pages of the israeli english language papers can be taken as a straw poll, israelis are highly critical of israel and love her dearly.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf