Figleaf Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) If posters must respect the forum rules, shouldn't forum administrators do so also? Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazymf Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 When will the west ever realize that these wars will never be over unless you kill them all, and their neighbors, and their dogs. Since that isn't a reasonable solution (hasn't worked so far in Israel), militarism must become a 'sport' of a kind so we cull them on a perpetual basis until they tire or we tire of the game. I do not believe there will be either a defined end or victory in Afghanistan or Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Harper has been hinting at a lot longer committment that 2009. It pretty much eliminates the possibility that Canada will be available for any other mission without a dramatic increase in the Canadian Forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradco Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Harper has been hinting at a lot longer committment that 2009. It pretty much eliminates the possibility that Canada will be available for any other mission without a dramatic increase in the Canadian Forces. dramatic increase it is then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watching&waiting Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 I can not let another of these "harper is hinting at being there beyond that time", post go by without saying that these people must not think very hard about this type of thing. Of course he will hint that Canada will be there for the next decade he may even say he is thinking it would make a good new province to Canada. For god sakes people we are at war, and stupid lips cost lives. Only a low down liberal would try to use this as a wedge, and by the way that is exactly the plan according to liberal insiders. It just reeks of total turn coat, do not want you even in my country type behaviour. It should not be a hard thing to understand that defeatist talk about turning and leaving goes does the whole Nato operation harm. We are there till 2009 and we will at that time see just how much further we will need to be there. That is it. Nothing is going to change that, so why is it the traitorous liberal spouting their yaps about no support for this and that and where are their entitlements. I may be getting a little too upset with this, but it has been hinted to before that it is not wise for them to do that, and they did not take notice. I believe this kinda makes this point quite noticeable even for them. It really was not how I wanted to end the thankgiving weekend, but if the line is not drawn here then where do we do that. Every little thing that happens here in Canda seems to make the news and the world now even in Afghanistan do watch international news. We must be very careful here as it was not that long ago we as young people found that our protests and marches did stop a war. It was Vietenam and while I believe it was for the best many still will argue that. I do not want to see any such thing happen here. We have lost 40 men in this, but since Friday across Canada we will have lost at least that many in traffic accidents, drownings and hiunting accidents etc. The loss of those 40 were the ones that fighting for a better cause. To them I say you all are heroes and it is to you I will give my greatest thanks this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 I can not let another of these "harper is hinting at being there beyond that time", post go by without saying that these people must not think very hard about this type of thing. Of course he will hint that Canada will be there for the next decade he may even say he is thinking it would make a good new province to Canada. For god sakes people we are at war, and stupid lips cost lives. Only a low down liberal would try to use this as a wedge, and by the way that is exactly the plan according to liberal insiders. It just reeks of total turn coat, do not want you even in my country type behaviour. It should not be a hard thing to understand that defeatist talk about turning and leaving goes does the whole Nato operation harm. We are there till 2009 and we will at that time see just how much further we will need to be there. That is it. Nothing is going to change that, so why is it the traitorous liberal spouting their yaps about no support for this and that and where are their entitlements. I may be getting a little too upset with this, but it has been hinted to before that it is not wise for them to do that, and they did not take notice. I believe this kinda makes this point quite noticeable even for them. It really was not how I wanted to end the thankgiving weekend, but if the line is not drawn here then where do we do that. Every little thing that happens here in Canda seems to make the news and the world now even in Afghanistan do watch international news. We must be very careful here as it was not that long ago we as young people found that our protests and marches did stop a war. It was Vietenam and while I believe it was for the best many still will argue that. I do not want to see any such thing happen here. We have lost 40 men in this, but since Friday across Canada we will have lost at least that many in traffic accidents, drownings and hiunting accidents etc. The loss of those 40 were the ones that fighting for a better cause. To them I say you all are heroes and it is to you I will give my greatest thanks this day. I think it is a little much to say "traitorous" about a comment suggesting that Canada will be in Afghanistan beyond 2009. If Canadians can't plan for that possibility, it threatens our security as well. At the moment, Canada can't committ to any major military crisis in Canada or beyond until after 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watching&waiting Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 How soon you forget that the Forces are being enlarged to 85,000 from 58,000. So there will be many more troops to do the jobs that are asked of them. Also that number may even increase more then that in time, if we can keep the liberal out of power. The fact is we as canadians know that for now all has beenset until 2009. There is no need to discuss the feeling that are against that, as it will not change anything. When the time is appropriate for discussion of extending that or pulling out, then and only then should it be brought up. The Liberals are planning to make the fact that some do not support this a major wedge issue and have even started a stop Iggy platform so they can still use it. That to me shows they have no decency and only care about grabbing power at any cost. Even if it costs some lives. Maybe I am being a little touchy but it is something that needs to be said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 How soon you forget that the Forces are being enlarged to 85,000 from 58,000. So there will be many more troops to do the jobs that are asked of them. Also that number may even increase more then that in time, if we can keep the liberal out of power. The fact is we as canadians know that for now all has beenset until 2009. There is no need to discuss the feeling that are against that, as it will not change anything. When the time is appropriate for discussion of extending that or pulling out, then and only then should it be brought up. The Liberals are planning to make the fact that some do not support this a major wedge issue and have even started a stop Iggy platform so they can still use it. That to me shows they have no decency and only care about grabbing power at any cost. Even if it costs some lives. Maybe I am being a little touchy but it is something that needs to be said. The Liberals made a committment for a force of 5000 combat troops but the military also said they needed a break from overseas duties to train the new force. That break was supposed to happen shortly. It has now been postponed till 2009. NATO has countries rotate in and out of service all the time. At the moment, Canada is asking why this nation is the pointy end of the stick indefinitely. Everyone talks about Canada's NATO obligation. NATO is not very committed compared to Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted November 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Some say our mission is to defeat the Taliban, or protect Afghanistan from falling "back" into the hands of the Taliban. Okay ... but then who are the Taliban? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Blue Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Well I read the article, and if it is true the soldier should be charged with a war crime as they did not follow ROE's. Another point I'd like to bring out though is that in some conflicts women and children will get involved. Their have been incidences of children throwing grenades at soldiers in Iraq. It's a different war, and unfortunately mistakes do occur. Once again if that incidence is true it has to be reported to the Military Police who would deal with those soldiers. Taleban-*Taliban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 We're fighting these wars for no other reason than to bolster the economy. These people were trained by us for us to fight so we'd have a way to blow up money (know how much a missile costs?) in the future (now). This is all to keep the economy floating, there are no other reasons than money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 We're fighting these wars for no other reason than to bolster the economy. And to make sure that no group such as the Taliban can support terror again. That argument might wash with the crowd who see evil in government but doesn't with those who know what happened on 911 - the day the world woke up. Okay ... but then who are the Taliban? Guys who want to retake Afganistan and run it in their theocratic way with no public expression of freedom, art, or personal choice while they give aid and support to groups that wish to recreate the Caliphate. They ran it in the nineties until the US and Northern Front usurped them. Hope that helps. These people were trained by us for us to fight so we'd have a way to blow up money (know how much a missile costs?) in the future (now). They were supported during the cold war to stop what was thought to be the USSR from gaining a foothold into the Persian Gulf. This is all to keep the economy floating, there are no other reasons than money. I think that the Military Industrial Complex would have been a lot more powerful had they simply allowed the Soviets to entrench and then attack using every weapon in the US arsenal rather than 'training' people to use a rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Okay ... but then who are the Taliban? Guys who want to retake Afganistan and run it in their theocratic way with no public expression of freedom, art, or personal choice while they give aid and support to groups that wish to recreate the Caliphate. They ran it in the nineties until the US and Northern Front usurped them. Hope that helps. Helps? No, facile drivel does not help. The issue is who do we think we're fighting NOW? The former Taliban regime is gone. Today's 'Taliban fighter' a probably pretty much indistinguishable from the broader Afghan demographic, except by who's shooting at him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Okay ... but then who are the Taliban? Guys who want to retake Afganistan and run it in their theocratic way As opposed to the current, corrupt Karzai-lead Islamic fundamentalist conservative government who want to run it in their own theocratic way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 [quote name='KrustyKidd' date='Nov 9 2006, 11:38 PM' post='152796' And to make sure that no group such as the Taliban can support terror again. That argument might wash with the crowd who see evil in government but doesn't with those who know what happened on 911 - the day the world woke up. .... Good post Krusty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Figleaf: Helps? No, facile drivel does not help. The issue is who do we think we're fighting NOW? The former Taliban regime is gone. Today's 'Taliban fighter' a probably pretty much indistinguishable from the broader Afghan demographic, except by who's shooting at him. Bullshit ? the former Taliban regime is not gone, but rather hiding amounst the regular Afgan citizens, or in Pakistan where they can terrorize them at will. where the can spread thier pioson, and propganda at will. don't let them fool you they are thugs,murders,and scumbags that really do require a bullet...Have no mercy or shed no tears for them as they would have none for you.... Sound cold, i've seen the results of taliban crimes first hand, and they have made me sick to think man is capable of such things...and i've been in combat before...and thought i'd seen it all...the cutting off of a 6 year olds hands, ripping a man in two with a truck, the running of a pike thru a mans beaten body, and standing it up in front of a towns entrance and allowing him to bleed out, ...sounds like the 16th century...but here it is everyday... that being said they are recruiting any Muslim from any where to help them in thier holy war....Money talks in this country and so does religion, combine both and they have no problem with recruiting young men to do there bidding...These young men believe in thier cause and have become Taliban and everything they stand for...They want to control the Afgan people, in every aspect of thier lives... So when you ask who is a taliban, it is anyone who picks up a wpn to defend the taliban way of life, by it for money or for religion...they brainwash these young men into fighting and dying. SO please stop crying for these guys, a majority of the Afgan people do not support these people willingly... And Canada has signed on to help plant these guys because we were asked to by the Afgan people. normanchateau: As opposed to the current, corrupt Karzai-lead Islamic fundamentalist conservative government who want to run it in their own theocratic way If this is your only reason for not supporting this mission, you need another excuse...Name me one government that is not had corruption...any country....that is free from curruption...As for the way they run it , we were not asked to start a "western style government" in afgan but one the afgan people wanted, that would still allow them choices...We in the west need to come to grip with the idea that our form of government is not the best form, what may work for us will not work for everyone... cybercoma: We're fighting these wars for no other reason than to bolster the economy. These people were trained by us for us to fight so we'd have a way to blow up money (know how much a missile costs?) in the future (now). This is all to keep the economy floating, there are no other reasons than money Where did you get this from, Some economics prof been pumping this crap out, have you seen the price tag for any of these missions, compare the cost it's impact is on our GDP, we've spent only 2.5 bil in the last 6 years...how is that keeping our enconomy floating...that would not even keep PEI floating... And by your logic the US should be swimming in cash, but wait a minute are they not running a major deficit....and that is how we keep the economy floating... I'd be interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion perhaps read a few of the links you got your info from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 normanchateau:As opposed to the current, corrupt Karzai-lead Islamic fundamentalist conservative government who want to run it in their own theocratic way If this is your only reason for not supporting this mission, you need another excuse....We in the west need to come to grip with the idea that our form of government is not the best form, what may work for us will not work for everyone... I'm not sure that I need another excuse. I can't support the idea of Canadians, no matter how well intentioned, giving up their lives to prop up a bribe-supported, Islamic fundamentalist theocracy whose government is filled with corrupt officials, drug smugglers, warlords and mullahs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watching&waiting Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 That desribes about 98% of all the worlds governments. So I guess you will just decide to be the sqeeky wheel and hope something changes? The more we can show the Afghan people that there are better ways and these ways are feasible, then we will see the governments cleaning themselves up. It was not so long agao that many of these countries were lead by dictators, and there were no elections. So far it has been a small step and one that I must say is on par with the soliers of the WWII who came to oust Hitler from power. Do you think that the lives of the many thousands that were given to that cause were also invain? The one thing I for one do not ever want Canada known for is runnning out on a fight to leave their allies behind to suffer the consequences. I do not think that the Canadian soldiers would do that even if ordered to do so. Maybe it is time to let those who know what to do and where to go, do so and quit second guessing in things you have no idea about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Figleaf:... The issue is who do we think we're fighting NOW? The former Taliban regime is gone. Today's 'Taliban fighter' a probably pretty much indistinguishable from the broader Afghan demographic, except by who's shooting at him. Bullshit ? the former Taliban regime is not gone, but rather hiding amounst the regular Afgan citizens, or in Pakistan where they can terrorize them at will. ... ....Money talks in this country and so does religion, combine both and they have no problem with recruiting young men to do there bidding...These young men believe in thier cause and have become Taliban and everything they stand for...They want to control the Afgan people, in every aspect of thier lives... If a majority of the Afghan people oppose what the Taliban are today, how are they able to hide among them? Also, your description of Taliban recruiting success makes me think they are widely supported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 The one thing I for one do not ever want Canada known for is runnning out on a fight to leave their allies behind to suffer the consequences. I do not think that the Canadian soldiers would do that even if ordered to do so. Maybe it is time to let those who know what to do and where to go, do so and quit second guessing in things you have no idea about. Perhaps the U.S. will put up more money. They are spending 25% less on Afghanistan than they did in Bosnia. As for NATO, they already are cutting and running or hiding. Most won't commit very much and are happy to have Canada put its ass out there for the next two years or more. Our allies are not doing enough. Too many years we've been accused of not pulling our weight. That was peacetime. It is a fight now and where are all the European and American critics now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Fact: Over two million Afghan refugees returned from camps in Pakistan and Iran after the invasion and subsequent removal of the Taliban government. All of those people remain in Afghanistan. I respect that reality far more than the bleating here by some. When they start heading back to the refugee camps, I'll start paying attention to those who now want to abandon to an unpleasant future.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Fact: Over two million Afghan refugees returned from camps in Pakistan and Iran after the invasion and subsequent removal of the Taliban government.All of those people remain in Afghanistan. I respect that reality far more than the bleating here by some. When they start heading back to the refugee camps, I'll start paying attention to those who now want to abandon to an unpleasant future.. Many have not left the refugee camps. Iran, India and other countries host thousands of refugees. Even Karzai this week has said people are leaving the south again because of fighting. Karzai in an interview today. "Almost 200,000 children in Helmand, Farah, Kandahar, Nimroz, and Zabol, Oruzgan, Paktika, Paktia, and Konar -- they cannot go to school. In Tagab [a district northeast of Kabul] and other areas as well. It is the same in Pakistan. There, the Pashtuns are hunted by terrorists. They are killed by the hands of terrorists. And also, they are being accused by the terrorists. This is a conspiracy. This is cruelty being imposed upon Afghans and the Pashtuns. And we should prevent that." "If you look, the Afghan clerics are being killed. In Kabul, innocent people are being martyred. They are killed in suicide bombings. In Kandahar, the religious leaders are being assassinated. In Konar Province, the elders are being martyred. And in Paktia, teachers are being martyred. And in the same way, the same things are happening to the Pashtuns in Pakistan -- especially in North Waziristan. The tribal elders and religious scholars are being martyred. Their heads are being cut off. Recently, they took a religious scholar out of a madrasah and they cut off his head -- saying he was a spy of the United States. Nearly 200 tribal elders and religious scholars have been martyred in this part of Waziristan. Who is doing that?" http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insi...av110906b.shtml Is Karzai just bleating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Nothing in the links or quotes you've provided disputes the reality that two million plus Afghans have returned and remain. Those millions were driven from their homes by the savagery of their Taliban government. It is not perfect , it is not paradise, it is not a haven of democracy, it is not a preferred place to buy a timeshare. But it is better than it was, a lot better, and that did not happen by accident. Explain that away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 normanchateau I'm not sure that I need another excuse. I can't support the idea of Canadians, no matter how well intentioned, giving up their lives to prop up a bribe-supported, Islamic fundamentalist theocracy whose government is filled with corrupt officials, drug smugglers, warlords and mullahs. You still have not listed any countries free from coruption, And nor do i see Canada on that list, so why do you have such high standards for Afgan when in fact our country is not living up to them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Figleaf. If a majority of the Afghan people oppose what the Taliban are today, how are they able to hide among them? Because the are terrified of them, and there is not enough security available thru Nato, to watch over them 24 hours a day...The taliban know this...and use it very effectivily... Also, your description of Taliban recruiting success makes me think they are widely supported. Can i ask you have you ever been hungry, i don't mean you missed lunch, but rather not eaten in a week or so, and there is no work available, and to top all this off you have a family...Taliban offer 5 dollars a day to fight the west....you become desparite and start believing in the poison they are preaching....Were not talking thousands here but rather hundards out of millions thats not widely supported last time i checked... jdobbin: There are schools in Kanadar , and thier are kids going to school there. but that won't bring the support the president wants will it. again i stress that one should not believe everything one reads in the media...everyone has an agenda, in this case money and support.... here is something that did not make the nightly news, this Orfange has a school, repaired by Canadians... My Webpage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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