Government hiring processes

[Chuck U. Farlie]

In another thread, this quote below was posted regarding caucasians essentially being discriminated against because government hiring practices supposedly choose minorities first:

The sad part of today's society is that the majority "Anglo Saxon's" are the one's being discriminated against especially by the government. An example is the government hiring practices. When hiring, the government considers qualifications a minor issue. But if you are considered a minority you go to the top of the list.

From the government's point of view this is supposed to get minority representation in the work force. I say this practice is a lazy man's way of avoiding the more serious problem. If the minority groups can't get jobs based on qualifications, maybe it is high time to review the educational system from which these minority groups were processed. Seems obvious to be that the true disservice was done at the educational level which placed these groups at a disadvantage in the first place.

Over the years, I have heard this rumour many times. I have heard anecdotal evidence about white males who considered themselves the best candidate losing out to a visible minority or a woman. Is there any basis to this?

I have my own anecdote to add.

I recently applied for a position at Canada Post. During the hiring procedure about 40 people were called in to write a Canada Post test - a kind of postal aptitude test. This room full of 40 people had maybe 10 caucasian men, 1 caucasian woman, maybe 5 black men, and about 15 asian/south asian men (these numbers are approximate).

Before writing the test we all had to fill out a form that says if we are a recognized minority or not.

This test was somewhat difficult - not due to the caliber of the question, but simply due to the amount of time given versus the number of questions. Many people with English as a first language would have some difficulty with this test, those with English as a second language would have great difficulty.

Eleven (11) people, including myself, passed this test. Approximately 4 caucasian men, 1 caucasian woman, 1 black man, and 5 asian/south asian (East Indian) men passed.

Only those that passed the test were called to interview. I, for one, got the job.

So despite the minority survey that we filled out, it seems to me that Canada Post's hiring practices are pretty fair... they are based on the outcome of the written test and doesn't take into account your race or sex.

[Leader Circle]

In another thread, this quote below was posted regarding caucasians essentially being discriminated against because government hiring practices supposedly choose minorities first:

The sad part of today's society is that the majority "Anglo Saxon's" are the one's being discriminated against especially by the government. An example is the government hiring practices. When hiring, the government considers qualifications a minor issue. But if you are considered a minority you go to the top of the list.

From the government's point of view this is supposed to get minority representation in the work force. I say this practice is a lazy man's way of avoiding the more serious problem. If the minority groups can't get jobs based on qualifications, maybe it is high time to review the educational system from which these minority groups were processed. Seems obvious to be that the true disservice was done at the educational level which placed these groups at a disadvantage in the first place.

Over the years, I have heard this rumour many times. I have heard anecdotal evidence about white males who considered themselves the best candidate losing out to a visible minority or a woman. Is there any basis to this?

I have my own anecdote to add.

I recently applied for a position at Canada Post. During the hiring procedure about 40 people were called in to write a Canada Post test - a kind of postal aptitude test. This room full of 40 people had maybe 10 caucasian men, 1 caucasian woman, maybe 5 black men, and about 15 asian/south asian men (these numbers are approximate).

Before writing the test we all had to fill out a form that says if we are a recognized minority or not.

This test was somewhat difficult - not due to the caliber of the question, but simply due to the amount of time given versus the number of questions. Many people with English as a first language would have some difficulty with this test, those with English as a second language would have great difficulty.

Eleven (11) people, including myself, passed this test. Approximately 4 caucasian men, 1 caucasian woman, 1 black man, and 5 asian/south asian (East Indian) men passed.

Only those that passed the test were called to interview. I, for one, got the job.

So despite the minority survey that we filled out, it seems to me that Canada Post's hiring practices are pretty fair... they are based on the outcome of the written test and doesn't take into account your race or sex.

Do you know of any white males that have applied for the RCMP or at least tried to go to cop school in Regina? Ask them how many of those white males got turned away...it may shock you! I have had friends told not to bother applying, because they were not a recognized minority.

I have another friend who married a girl from Denmark and you would think she would automatically become a Canadian citizen, but WRONG... she was denied for her social insurance number, because she is considered an refugee???????? Not sure about that, but she is not allowed to get a social insurance number, therefore she can't work in Canada legally? She was told, though, if she was a lesbian, they could help her out...WTF??

[M.Dancer]

I have had friends told not to bother applying, because they were not a recognized minority.

She was told, though, if she was a lesbian, they could help her out...WTF??

Of course I believe you....professional swivel servants make flippant self incriminating statements all the time....just so they can go to court and fight frivillous lawsuits

[Chuck U. Farlie]

I have another friend who married a girl from Denmark and you would think she would automatically become a Canadian citizen, but WRONG... she was denied for her social insurance number, because she is considered an refugee???????? Not sure about that, but she is not allowed to get a social insurance number, therefore she can't work in Canada legally? She was told, though, if she was a lesbian, they could help her out...WTF??

I know a little bit about this, as I nearly married a foreigner once, and my brother has done so.

When you marry a foreigner they are not automatically a Canadian. You have to apply. The immigration process in this situation is much easier than the other methods (i.e. work or study reasons). If she is considered a refugee, then she must have applied for refugee status for some reason.

Basically they would have 2 options:

If they are married and not in Canada, they would apply for canadian citizenship in the family class. He would have to prove that he can support her in Canada, has work, etc.. They would have to wait for approval of her Permanent Residency outside of Canada. If approved and granted permanent residency, then she would be entitled to a SIN #, health care, etc...

If they are married and are on Canadian soil, it is similar to above except that she can stay in Canada on a renewable tourist visa (without SIN # or health benefits) until the decision regarding her PR is made.

From everything that I have read on the Canadian Immigration site, I have seen nothing that would suggest that a lesbian would have an easier or more difficult time coming to Canada...

[jbg]

My ethnic group - Jews - represents less than 2% of the population of both the US and Canada. Yippee!!! I'm a recognized minority!!!

[geoffrey]

Do you know of any white males that have applied for the RCMP or at least tried to go to cop school in Regina? Ask them how many of those white males got turned away...it may shock you! I have had friends told not to bother applying, because they were not a recognized minority.

I qualified for RCMP training in Regina, i scored 4.6/5.0 on the RPAT and I had an extremely high percentile physical fitness score. If I was any lower, I was told by the recruiter that I would not have made the cut.

When I turned down the offer to return to school to finish my degree, I had quite some angry reaction from friends that have been trying to get in for years, yet have been denied even with really high scores on the aptitude testing and on par physically with me.

An Indian though? Barely has to be remotely qualified, their race is a qualification.

It's a major disadvantage to be a white male in today's society.

Sitting in my HR class today, I witness a whole 40 people completely brainwashed by the principle of hiring minorities. We watched a brief case study and then had to rationalize our hiring decision of either candidate. Everyone in the class other than me picked the lesser qualified black woman, as they thought diversity was more important than qualifications.

It's very sad, our attempts at equality are trampling our opportunity.

[Argus]

Sitting in my HR class today, I witness a whole 40 people completely brainwashed by the principle of hiring minorities. We watched a brief case study and then had to rationalize our hiring decision of either candidate. Everyone in the class other than me picked the lesser qualified black woman, as they thought diversity was more important than qualifications.

It's very sad, our attempts at equality are trampling our opportunity.

And encouraging racism, bigotry and general anger and resentment towards "others". You can bet that all those people who were turned down were especially angry to see much less qualfied natives, blacks, women, etc. being welcomed with open arms. I only know one white male who was accepted, and is about to graduate, btw. But he's French. The RCMP. Incidentally, where is he being sent for his first assignment, this fluently billingual francophone? Alberta.

We have the same discriminatory crap in all local city police forces, and fire departments, as well. And though we don't hear as much about them, it's not much different among non-uniformed municipal staff. I think the reason is that while the other parties have eschewed local politics, the NDP has put much resources into seeing that their kind of people get elected to municipal councils and even school boards. and the NDP despises White people. Well, unless they're homosexual.

As to the RCMP, it is leaderless, as I've said before. The feds, meaning liberals, have made it their policy to choose weak commisioners who would jump when told to jump, and carry out the kind of touchie-feelie mushy liberal policies that make the left happy.

[scribblet]

Back around 1996 my son aspired to join the RCMP, he was told by a school councillor that he didn't have much of a chance because of their hiring policy re: affirmative action. I wrote a letter to the RCMP and received a letter back confirming this, explaining how the process worked, I then wrote to my MPP and the PM - I never received a reply.

Discrimination in hiring has been firmly rooted in the RCMP, for a long time. A few years ago, then RCMP Commissioner Phil Murray and Human Rights Commissioner Max Yalden decreed that the force should consist of: 20% women, 4.5% aboriginals and 8.3% visible minorities. Solicitor General Herb Gray admitted at that time that white males are now being passed over in favour of less qualified applicants who fit the quotas, and confirmed it in a reply to a letter I wrote to him at that time.

http://gayandright.blogspot.com/2005/06/mo...inst-white.html this 2005 blog confirms our findings regarding hiring practices.

"If too few well-qualified applicants are seeking admission to the RCMP's academy in Regina, it is likely because the Mounties have done all they could in the last decade to scare off young white males. While brass deny it, for a time in the mid-1990s the RCMP had a "no white males" policy. Some recruiters admitted to applicants that the force had a five-year backlog of Caucasian men and wouldn't consider any more until it had reached its gender and racial hiring goals. Just to get an interview, white males needed a score of 115 on the police aptitude test, women needed a 96 and visible minority candidates an 86.

Hat tip: Western Standard blog - The Shotgun."

There was a debate at that time in the Commons on amending the Human Rights Code re: homosexuals, during which, not one MP raised the issue of mandated discrimination on the basis of race and sex --( see section 15 (2)._ This type of discrimination is known as employment equity, but is really affirmative action.

Purveyors of political correctness and social engineering are so blinded with ideology that they will not, or cannot see how intolerant and bigoted their extremist demands really are.

There is still blatant discrimination against white males so accordingly we should be demanding that ALL people be treated equally, and that the RCMP only hire on the basis of merit and qualifications. This is the least you can do to help restore fairness and true equality.

The RCMP website talks about employment equity and sounds fairly reasonable, but behind it all, is the simple fact that minorities are given preferential treatment.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ee/ps_2004-05_e.htm#equity

Integration

The commitment of employment equity is demonstrated by the creation of our Departmental Employment Equity Special Interest Fund. This special funding encourages and facilitates the recruitment of target group members with the major focus being on increasing our visible minority groups. The funding is accessible to all regions to an amount of $150,000.

This is an excellent initiative. The funding constitutes “seed” grant given to initiate the short-term hiring of target group members. The long-term goal is to facilitate accessibility, skill development and retention within our Department and within the Federal Public Service in general.

and today in the public secter;

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?...1e9d12e&p=1

White males need not apply

Internal e-mail reveals hiring ban at Public Works

A major federal department has temporarily banned the hiring of able-bodied white men in an unusual move critics say could spark a backlash against the very disadvantaged groups it is meant to help.

Managers in the Public Works department must hire only visible minorities, women, aboriginals and the disabled, except with written permission from their superiors, David Marshall, the deputy minister, ordered in an e-mail circulated yesterday.

[Michael Hardner]

From the linked article:

The proportion of female, disabled, aboriginal and non-white new hires fell from one in eight this March to only one in 20 by September, he said.

So that's 95% abled bodied white males hired.

I support debating the merits of affirmative action policy, but let's put all the facts out there. Almost all the cops I see on the streets of Toronto are white - certainly a greater proportion than the community as a whole. Also, I've never heard anybody suggest hiring unqualified people because of their race.

[Leader Circle]

Okay, so now where are the left lovers when it comes to this discussion?

Can you defend yourselves??? NOt one of you have commented here and I know why, you don't see a problem with these hiring procedures, you condone it!

Pathetic!

[M.Dancer]

Okay, so now where are the left lovers when it comes to this discussion?

Can you defend yourselves??? NOt one of you have commented here and I know why, you don't see a problem with these hiring procedures, you condone it!

Pathetic!

You must have some filtering software.....or you can't read.

Only those that passed the test were called to interview. I, for one, got the job.

So despite the minority survey that we filled out, it seems to me that Canada Post's hiring practices are pretty fair... they are based on the outcome of the written test and doesn't take into account your race or sex.

Of course I believe you....professional swivel servants make flippant self incriminating statements all the time....just so they can go to court and fight frivillous lawsuits

From everything that I have read on the Canadian Immigration site, I have seen nothing that would suggest that a lesbian would have an easier or more difficult time coming to Canada...

So that's 95% abled bodied white males hired.

I support debating the merits of affirmative action policy, but let's put all the facts out there. Almost all the cops I see on the streets of Toronto are white - certainly a greater proportion than the community as a whole. Also, I've never heard anybody suggest hiring unqualified people because of their race.

[geoffrey]

From the linked article:

The proportion of female, disabled, aboriginal and non-white new hires fell from one in eight this March to only one in 20 by September, he said.

So that's 95% abled bodied white males hired.

I support debating the merits of affirmative action policy, but let's put all the facts out there. Almost all the cops I see on the streets of Toronto are white - certainly a greater proportion than the community as a whole. Also, I've never heard anybody suggest hiring unqualified people because of their race.

Michael,

The hiring standards for aptitude and physical tests are lower in the RCMP for Indians and women. Send an e-mail off to a recruiter, I can even provide you with a few numbers for them in my area, and ask. They have no problem with the policy.

You fill out a detailed questionaire before you do the testing about what minorities you are, and your tested amongst those of similar ethnicities (could it be anymore racist). The result is a on the RPAT (the big aptitude test) is a score of 4.6/5.0 is a qualifer for white men, lower 4's are a qualifer for white women, 3.3-3.5 are for Indian men and if your an Indian woman your generally almost certainly getting in.

We definitely higher less qualified officers into the RCMP to fill racial quotas. It's pretty disgusting. I'd rather have an all-white super qualified force then a diverse force with many underqualified officers.

It's also very unfair to the qualified Indians and women that apply. For the rest of their careers, they'll be looked upon by their fellow officers and citizens in the community as likely less-qualifer members of the force. When you see a white RCMP officer, you know he had amazingly high testing scores and aptitude. An Indian, well, shakey at best. That excludes those minorities that applied and did extremely well, how would one know??

The tests are even that damned hard, I didn't 'study' like many and came out with an fantastic score. A 2.4 or 2.5 (which has qualified Indian women) would pretty much be a for surely unqualified to be even a security guard.

Here's a little bit on the test for your reading: http://www.rcmp.gc.ca/recruiting/written_exams_e.htm

[Michael Hardner]

Michael,

The hiring standards for aptitude and physical tests are lower in the RCMP for Indians and women. Send an e-mail off to a recruiter, I can even provide you with a few numbers for them in my area, and ask. They have no problem with the policy.

That doesn't mean that these people are unqualified either.

The easy counter-point (I'll fill it in for you) is that we want the 'best' people in the job.

But...

Two problems persist:

1. Like hires like.

2. The community becomes stratified if one group polices another entirely.

So I can accept the counter-point (which I provided) but I want to know about the problems I pointed out. How do you rectify that ?

You fill out a detailed questionaire before you do the testing about what minorities you are, and your tested amongst those of similar ethnicities (could it be anymore racist). The result is a on the RPAT (the big aptitude test) is a score of 4.6/5.0 is a qualifer for white men, lower 4's are a qualifer for white women, 3.3-3.5 are for Indian men and if your an Indian woman your generally almost certainly getting in.

We definitely higher less qualified officers into the RCMP to fill racial quotas. It's pretty disgusting. I'd rather have an all-white super qualified force then a diverse force with many underqualified officers.

You're framing qualification in terms of these tests, but...

1. Isn't qualification a 'line in the sand' so to speak ? I would submit that 3.3 is qualification, but because there are so many white males that want to get in, they set the bar higher.

I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily follow that lower scores mean 'unqualified'.

2. What do these tests measure exactly ? I would imagine that an Indian woman on the force would be worth her weight in gold in being able to talk people out of certain situations, in ways that others can't.

Again. Not fair, but maybe it works.

It's also very unfair to the qualified Indians and women that apply. For the rest of their careers, they'll be looked upon by their fellow officers and citizens in the community as likely less-qualifer members of the force. When you see a white RCMP officer, you know he had amazingly high testing scores and aptitude. An Indian, well, shakey at best. That excludes those minorities that applied and did extremely well, how would one know??

The tests are even that damned hard, I didn't 'study' like many and came out with an fantastic score. A 2.4 or 2.5 (which has qualified Indian women) would pretty much be a for surely unqualified to be even a security guard.

Here's a little bit on the test for your reading: http://www.rcmp.gc.ca/recruiting/written_exams_e.htm

The test sounds mostly valid.

I'll submit, by the by, some counter problems that affirmative action does produce:

1. Backlash

2. Managing services for politics rather than results.

[Renegade]

Two problems persist:

1. Like hires like.

2. The community becomes stratified if one group polices another entirely.

So I can accept the counter-point (which I provided) but I want to know about the problems I pointed out. How do you rectify that ?

You can address both issue by focusing on making the criteria for hiring completely objective. With objective testing, it wouldn't be up to "like" to hire "like".

Assuming that the the hiring criteria are objective, you would expect to get the same representaion of new hires as exist in the population as a whole. If you don't, then so be it.

[geoffrey]

Two problems persist:

1. Like hires like.

2. The community becomes stratified if one group polices another entirely.

So I can accept the counter-point (which I provided) but I want to know about the problems I pointed out. How do you rectify that ?

You can address both issue by focusing on making the criteria for hiring completely objective. Which objective testing, it wouldn't be up to "like" to hire "like".

Assuming that the the hiring criteria are objective, you would expect to get the same representaion of new hires as exist in the population as a whole. If you don't, then so be it.

I tend to agree. The only way to get past all these racial barriers, is to eliminate race as a hiring criterea. I think it's about time.

It's hard for a minority group to really succeed when they are always viewed as been given the easy road to whatever they do. If everyone qualified on equal ground, eventually things would come around.

You can't legislate tolerance, any attempt just causes further distrust and tension between groups. People will realise the benefits of cooperation on their own, the government doesn't need to tell them.

Bev Oda said it best when having to defend the cutting of 'status of women' programs:

"We have to stop this narrative of victimhood. We as women and as Canadians do not see women as victims. We know they are leaders. We know they have aspirations. We want to give them the opportunities that they deserve."

That's what it's about, minorities aren't victims. They aren't the government's children. They are productive members of society when allowed to act under their own inititive and given the chance to escape government programs designed to create their 'success'.

The most successful women and minorities in business and life aren't the ones that are aided by the government to get there.