Muslim Leaders and Terrorism

[M.Dancer]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I've noticed that the propensity for blanket statements here, by the left and right is quite normal, accepted even. Clearly racist statements are accepted as fact......

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

But the clear indictaion by such blanket statements is that ALL MUSLIM LEADERS SUPPORT....yadda yadda yadda......

....which without doubt is 100% unadulterated bullshit......

Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.

The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

LONDON — The two meetings by Muslim leaders occurred only three days apart, one in Birmingham (search) and one in London. Both condemned the terrorist attacks in the British capital, but they couldn't agree on one key issue: Are suicide attacks forbidden by religious law?

The fact that one group said "yes" and the other group said "not always" could be one reason Muslim radicals sometimes succeed in recruiting disaffected young people as suicide bombers, even in Western democracies such as Britain. Some clerics argue that such strikes can be used against an occupying power — an exception that offers the radicals religious backing for their attacks.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163075,00.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Iranian President Mohammed Khatami on Friday condemned the September 11 attacks against the United States as an atrocity and said suicide bombers did Islam an injustice and would not go to heaven.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....;archived=False

[JerrySeinfeld]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I've noticed that the propensity for blanket statements here, by the left and right is quite normal, accepted even. Clearly racist statements are accepted as fact......

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

But the clear indictaion by such blanket statements is that ALL MUSLIM LEADERS SUPPORT....yadda yadda yadda......

....which without doubt is 100% unadulterated bullshit......

Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.

The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

LONDON — The two meetings by Muslim leaders occurred only three days apart, one in Birmingham (search) and one in London. Both condemned the terrorist attacks in the British capital, but they couldn't agree on one key issue: Are suicide attacks forbidden by religious law?

The fact that one group said "yes" and the other group said "not always" could be one reason Muslim radicals sometimes succeed in recruiting disaffected young people as suicide bombers, even in Western democracies such as Britain. Some clerics argue that such strikes can be used against an occupying power — an exception that offers the radicals religious backing for their attacks.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163075,00.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Iranian President Mohammed Khatami on Friday condemned the September 11 attacks against the United States as an atrocity and said suicide bombers did Islam an injustice and would not go to heaven.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....;archived=False

So now you not only have no problem with suicide attacks against civilians, but you also believe the drivel that is being fed to you by militant muslim leaders who have obviously learned in great detail how to manipulate the western squeemishness and knee-jerk poli-correctness to their advantage.

You really should just convert.

[M.Dancer]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I've noticed that the propensity for blanket statements here, by the left and right is quite normal, accepted even. Clearly racist statements are accepted as fact......

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

But the clear indictaion by such blanket statements is that ALL MUSLIM LEADERS SUPPORT....yadda yadda yadda......

....which without doubt is 100% unadulterated bullshit......

Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.

The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

LONDON — The two meetings by Muslim leaders occurred only three days apart, one in Birmingham (search) and one in London. Both condemned the terrorist attacks in the British capital, but they couldn't agree on one key issue: Are suicide attacks forbidden by religious law?

The fact that one group said "yes" and the other group said "not always" could be one reason Muslim radicals sometimes succeed in recruiting disaffected young people as suicide bombers, even in Western democracies such as Britain. Some clerics argue that such strikes can be used against an occupying power — an exception that offers the radicals religious backing for their attacks.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163075,00.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Iranian President Mohammed Khatami on Friday condemned the September 11 attacks against the United States as an atrocity and said suicide bombers did Islam an injustice and would not go to heaven.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....;archived=False

So now you not only have no problem with suicide attacks against civilians, but you also believe the drivel that is being fed to you by militant muslim leaders who have obviously learned in great detail how to manipulate the western squeemishness and knee-jerk poli-correctness to their advantage.

You really should just convert.

Unless you can show where I stated that I support suicide attacks, I will naturally assume you are ignorant and a liar.

As to your second statement, wihich is be default worthless, I invite you to prove the men quoted as agiants suicide terrorism are "militants" then to attempt to explain why "militants" would be admonishing their flocks against suicide attacks......

...I would say I look forward to the attempt, but so far your posts replace sensationalism for thought....

[Gord]

Sorry my opinion differs a bit I fully place the blame for the violence on the Muslim community. It is not enough to just come out with disapproving statements. The problem clearly lies with the Muslim community and they should be the ones to take the bull by the horns and repair the system that tends to allow extremism to exist, I know the answer will be that there are very few extremists. But these extremist are operating within their community so it is up to them to police and remedy the problem not the infidels.

Not withstanding I agree the infidels have created the circumstances which cause these extremists to rebel but there is a right way and a wrong way to confront the situation.

[bradco]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I've noticed that the propensity for blanket statements here, by the left and right is quite normal, accepted even. Clearly racist statements are accepted as fact......

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

But the clear indictaion by such blanket statements is that ALL MUSLIM LEADERS SUPPORT....yadda yadda yadda......

....which without doubt is 100% unadulterated bullshit......

Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.

The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

LONDON — The two meetings by Muslim leaders occurred only three days apart, one in Birmingham (search) and one in London. Both condemned the terrorist attacks in the British capital, but they couldn't agree on one key issue: Are suicide attacks forbidden by religious law?

The fact that one group said "yes" and the other group said "not always" could be one reason Muslim radicals sometimes succeed in recruiting disaffected young people as suicide bombers, even in Western democracies such as Britain. Some clerics argue that such strikes can be used against an occupying power — an exception that offers the radicals religious backing for their attacks.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163075,00.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Iranian President Mohammed Khatami on Friday condemned the September 11 attacks against the United States as an atrocity and said suicide bombers did Islam an injustice and would not go to heaven.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....;archived=False

So now you not only have no problem with suicide attacks against civilians, but you also believe the drivel that is being fed to you by militant muslim leaders who have obviously learned in great detail how to manipulate the western squeemishness and knee-jerk poli-correctness to their advantage.

You really should just convert.

Unless you can show where I stated that I support suicide attacks, I will naturally assume you are ignorant and a liar.

As to your second statement, wihich is be default worthless, I invite you to prove the men quoted as agiants suicide terrorism are "militants" then to attempt to explain why "militants" would be admonishing their flocks against suicide attacks......

...I would say I look forward to the attempt, but so far your posts replace sensationalism for thought....

Dancer there is no point arguing with this guy. Theyre all extremists but if a few arent theyre only trying to manipulate us. Its rubbish, any half intelligent 4 year old could tell you that much. To your natural assumption that he is ignorant and a liar Id like to add racist as well which can easily be drawn from his numerous posts against Muslims.

[M.Dancer]

Sorry my opinion differs a bit I fully place the blame for the violence on the Muslim community. It is not enough to just come out with disapproving statements. The problem clearly lies with the Muslim community and they should be the ones to take the bull by the horns and repair the system that tends to allow extremism to exist, I know the answer will be that there are very few extremists. But these extremist are operating within their community so it is up to them to police and remedy the problem not the infidels.

Not withstanding I agree the infidels have created the circumstances which cause these extremists to rebel but there is a right way and a wrong way to confront the situation.

That's nice and if the muslim community was a monolithic being you would have a point. But as it is it's like saying French Swiss are as responsible for the crack epidemic in Florida as Floridians themselves......

I mean...aside from being vocal in opposition to the militants...what more can you expect of modern, urbane muslims....you want them to go undercover and infiltrate Al qaeda?

[M.Dancer]

Dancer there is no point arguing with this guy. Theyre all extremists but if a few arent theyre only trying to manipulate us. Its rubbish, any half intelligent 4 year old could tell you that much. To your natural assumption that he is ignorant and a liar Id like to add racist as well which can easily be drawn from his numerous posts against Muslims.

Thanks

[sharkman]

Dancer there is no point arguing with this guy. Theyre all extremists but if a few arent theyre only trying to manipulate us. Its rubbish, any half intelligent 4 year old could tell you that much. To your natural assumption that he is ignorant and a liar Id like to add racist as well which can easily be drawn from his numerous posts against Muslims.

Thanks

I have explained this before, but let me again. It is not the peaceful, God fearing Muslims that are a concern, it is the ones who believe they have a divine command to fight the infidels. The ones who are blowing up stuff are worrisome, the ones who aren't are not. In the Non-muslim kills 3 thread, I have left a link that lists Koran verses talking about infidels, jihad and the lilke. (I don't want to double post it here which is against the rules.)The book itself is very pro-war and pro-jihad. But if there was no muslims blowing people up, there would be no problem. Many are racist towards Muslims, and this is sad. But what is the greater evil. Racism or murder.

[M.Dancer]

I have explained this before, but let me again. It is not the peaceful, God fearing Muslims that are a concern, it is the ones who believe they have a divine command to fight the infidels. The ones who are blowing up stuff are worrisome, the ones who aren't are not. In the Non-muslim kills 3 thread, I have left a link that lists Koran verses talking about infidels, jihad and the lilke. (I don't want to double post it here which is against the rules.)The book itself is very pro-war and pro-jihad. But if there was no muslims blowing people up, there would be no problem. Many are racist towards Muslims, and this is sad. But what is the greater evil. Racism or murder.

Oh of course......that's what you mean........

if you only knew what your were talking about.....but sadly I see no more reason to feed the trolls other than to correct them.

[sharkman]

I have explained this before, but let me again. It is not the peaceful, God fearing Muslims that are a concern, it is the ones who believe they have a divine command to fight the infidels. The ones who are blowing up stuff are worrisome, the ones who aren't are not. In the Non-muslim kills 3 thread, I have left a link that lists Koran verses talking about infidels, jihad and the lilke. (I don't want to double post it here which is against the rules.)The book itself is very pro-war and pro-jihad. But if there was no muslims blowing people up, there would be no problem. Many are racist towards Muslims, and this is sad. But what is the greater evil. Racism or murder.

Oh of course......that's what you mean........

if you only knew what your were talking about.....but sadly I see no more reason to feed the trolls other than to correct them.

You have done nothing but be mean spirited, rude, and sarcastic. If you want nothing but pats on the back you should go to a Muslim forum. My comments above must bother you for such a response, but I am not being unreasonable. If you can't at least consider that some Muslims are ruining it for all, then I will leave you to your thoughts.

[M.Dancer]

I have explained this before, but let me again. It is not the peaceful, God fearing Muslims that are a concern, it is the ones who believe they have a divine command to fight the infidels. The ones who are blowing up stuff are worrisome, the ones who aren't are not. In the Non-muslim kills 3 thread, I have left a link that lists Koran verses talking about infidels, jihad and the lilke. (I don't want to double post it here which is against the rules.)The book itself is very pro-war and pro-jihad. But if there was no muslims blowing people up, there would be no problem. Many are racist towards Muslims, and this is sad. But what is the greater evil. Racism or murder.

Oh of course......that's what you mean........

if you only knew what your were talking about.....but sadly I see no more reason to feed the trolls other than to correct them.

You have done nothing but be mean spirited, rude, and sarcastic.

Right back at ya Schmendrick.......

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

[sharkman]

Right back at ya Schmendrick.......

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

Good for you Dancer.

[Gord]

Back to my original reply. If it is not the responsibility of the Muslim leadership to route out the personnel responsible for creating the environment of radicalism in their religion then who? I suppose the answer from some of the people viewing this thread might be the Christians. That would work out rather well. "Headline news". Christian lead coalition raids Mosque in an attempt to prevent Muslim radical preachings". Surely that world calm the situation, all the radicals world disappear. This strategy of Christians removing radicalism in Iraq certainly appears to be working well .

Sorry for the sarcasm above but I still believe the Muslim leadership must do much more than just denounce the radicalism.

[betsy]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

Can you please provide a link supporting that Christian leaders support direct action against clinics?

I'd be very suprised...since supporting that kind of violence is very much against the teachings of Christ.

[betsy]

Dancer there is no point arguing with this guy. Theyre all extremists but if a few arent theyre only trying to manipulate us. Its rubbish, any half intelligent 4 year old could tell you that much. To your natural assumption that he is ignorant and a liar Id like to add racist as well which can easily be drawn from his numerous posts against Muslims.

Mud slinging and accusations mean nothing in a public forum unless you can back your accusations with proofs or facts. Anybody can do that. Even a 2 year old!

[betsy]

.....but sadly I see no more reason to feed the trolls other than to correct them.

The most effective way to "correct" the "trolls" would be to provide a solid back-up to your argument.

[Argus]

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....

You wouldn't have to look very hard at all.

Within the Arab Sunni world the Egyptian-born Sheikh Qaradawi, 80, of Qatar, is the face of institutionalized Islam. He is the closest to what might pass for a titular head of Muslims akin to the Pope. Qaradawi's words, now broadcast by television network al-Jazeerah, are taken as authoritative pronouncements of Islam. He is the "spiritual" leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement formed to repudiate freedom and democracy, and a defender of Islam's war against the West by any means, including suicide bombings.

Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.

The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

How exciting.... oh wait, it doesn't count in "ongoing struggles" like that in Kashmir or Palestine. You can blow yourself up in a suicide bombing there all you want. And not everyone was willing to sign off on even this much.

However, the head of a well-known seminary for mainstream Sunni Muslims in Lahore, Sarfraz Naeemi refused to sign the decree.

He says it is a government-sponsored move which could be used by the United States to justify its propaganda against suicide attacks.

This is the MAINSTREAM!?

[Rue]

I will put it this way. Every organized religion has good people and bad people. For us in the West these days, we tend to see all Muslims as angry and primative for obvious reasons. Firstly, when we do see Muslims on t.v. its in the context of Afghanistan or Iraq or terrorism or some sort of story where Muslims are angry and burning something.

In day to day boring life, we don't read stories of Muslims just going about doing their business.

I do think it is fair game to criticize any Muslim cleric or anyone claiming in the name of Islam that it is acceptable to engage in terrorism or violence just as I do when it comes to anyone of any other religion or non religion.

That said here is the problem. If we try engage in criticism of Islam, we often get painted as being racist. The fact is we in the West criticize Sharia law and Islamic concepts as to the treatment of women, gays, non Muslims, and the lack of seperation of state from religion.

I for one am very critical of the Muslim religious communities role in the Middle East in actively promoting

vicious anti-semitism and intolerance not just to Jews, but Hindus, Bhuddists, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, gays and women.

I am not afraid to call a spade a spade and say so although I try not to stereotype Muslim people or treat them badly.

My problem though is, I personally have found as has the Western press, that when one wants to exercise freedom of speech and criticize an aspect of Islam, we are tarred with racism.

Now as a Jew, I am quite used to debating Israel and I will point out when someone is not arguing about Israel anymore but about Judaism in general, and I think it is fair game to criticize Judaism and Israel just as I do Christianity. All our religions or ideologies should be questioned and prodded and criticized.

I do think it is fair today, as we speak to say, our Judeo-Christian Western society although full of problems and probably screwed up by its lack of spiritual values and love for materialism, is not the same as what we see going in in the Middle East in Muslim countries.

As much as I see the West as having its own problems and lots of them, I do think we still have the right to criticize the Muslim world the same way we do our own.

I don't think anyone of any religion should be able to use their religion as a justification for being a terrorist or violent and yes if their religion comes into conflict with the values we hold dear in our society, we are allowed to say so and defend our values.

What I think is fair to say is that Muslims have come to the West and take advantage of our freedom of speech and what we have to offer and use it for all its worth but at the same time criticize us and belittle us for the very same things they enjoy. That I have a problem with and I am not saying those are a majority of Muslims. I do not. I think they are a minority and every religious group or ethnic group has such

people.

But yes where I live I see people who insult Canada and ridicule our traditions but demand every benefit that comes from what we offer. That I have a hard time with. As a Jew, I put Canada first not my religion. My country and all the values it stands for I put first. I don't think that is unfair and I don't think in any way it causes me to be any less of a Jew at all.

I do think it would be unrealistic though for me to expect the government to fund Jewish schools or to allow me to opt out of marriage laws or other laws because of my religion. I don't want such privileges. I know there are religious Jews who feel it is unfair there is a Catholic school board but not one for other faiths. I know many religious people of Christian, Jewish and Muslim denominations and sects who disagree with me and think I am too liberal or watered down.

I really don't care. But in conclusion I would say, Muslim people if they want to learn to live in the Western world have to be able to accept criticism of those values they hold that come into conflict with the ones we

believe are preferable, such as seperation of religion from state or equality of sexes or engaging in anti-semetic displays or comments that are intolerant of others beliefs.

Now Muslims say, if you express freedom of speech, make sure not to depict a face of Mohammed in what we say. I can live with that on an individual level but I am not comfortable when people feel they can pressure newspapers or operas into not doing this because it offends them.

On one level I find Shylock in the Merchant of Venice or Fagan in Oliver Twist offensive, but on another level, I understand if we allow it to be expressed properly, it leads to tolerance not prejudice.

So all I am saying is Muslims have to have more confidence when we criticize aspects of their religion it does not mean we hate them, disrespect them or would hurt them. I think we all agree on the golden rule. All of us have the equivalent expression and atheists like the golden rule too.

[M.Dancer]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

I'm sure if we look hard enough yoiu will find muslim leaders who support suicide bombings....and you will also find christian leaders who support direct action against clinics.

Can you please provide a link supporting that Christian leaders support direct action against clinics?

I'd be very suprised...since supporting that kind of violence is very much against the teachings of Christ.

Like Rev Phelps? Gayman?

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport...icle.jsp?aid=46

[Rue]

Library: Modern: James A. Haught: Holy Horrors (1990)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Order books by James A. Haught now

[This article was originally published in Penthouse, August 1990.]

Here are examples of how no one religion has a monopoly on violence; (exerpts from a penthous article written by James a. haught, in 1990, yes yegads I am quoting a Penthouse article!)

"A pig caused hundreds of Indians to kill one another in 1980. The animal walked through a Muslim holy ground at Moradabad, near New Delhi. Muslims, who think pigs are an embodiment of Satan, blamed Hindus for the defilement. They went on a murder rampage, stabbing and clubbing Hindus, who retaliated in kind. The pig riot spread to a dozen cities and left more than 200 dead."

"-- The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us," Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, "purifying" the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God." "

"Human sacrifice blossomed in the Mayan theocracy of Central America between the 11th and 16th centuries. To appease a feathered-serpent god, maidens were drowned in sacred wells and other victims either had their hearts cut out, were shot with arrows, or were beheaded. Elsewhere, sacrifice was sporadic. In Peru, pre-Inca tribes killed children in temples called "houses of the moon."

"In Tibet, Bon shamans performed ritual killings. In Borneo builders of pile houses drove the first pile through the body of a maiden to pacify the earth goddess. In India, Dravidian people offered lives to village goddesses, and followers of Kali sacrificed a male child every Friday evening."

" In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives -- many of them women and children -- taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified." "

"The Assassins were a sect of Ismaili Shi'ite Muslims whose faith required the stealthy murder of religious opponents. From the 11th to 13th centuries, they killed numerous leaders in modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria."

"Throughout Europe, beginning in the 1100s, tales spread that Jews were abducting Christian children, sacrificing them, and using their blood in rituals. Hundreds of massacres stemmed from this "blood libel." Some of the supposed sacrifice victims -- Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln, the holy child of LaGuardia, Simon of Trent -- were beatified or commemorated with shrines that became sites of pilgrimages and miracles."

"In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: "Kill them all. God will know his own." Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered -- many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice."

"The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 proclaimed the doctrine of transubstantiation: that the host wafer miraculously turns into the body of Jesus during the mass. Soon rumors spread that Jews were stealing the sacred wafers and stabbing or driving nails through them to crucify Jesus again. Reports said that the pierced host bled, cried out, or emitted spirits. On this charge, Jews were burned at the stake in 1243 in Belitz, Germany -- the first of many killings that continued into the 1800s. To avenge the tortured host, the German knight Rindfliesch led a brigade in 1298 that exterminated 146 defenseless Jewish communities in six months."

"In the 1200s the Incas built their empire in Peru, a society dominated by priests reading daily magical signs and offering sacrifices to appease many gods. At major ceremonies up to 200 children were burned as offerings. Special "chosen women" -- comely virgins without blemish -- were strangled."

" Also during the 1200s, the hunt for Albigensian heretics led to establishment of the Inquisition, which spread over Europe. Pope Innocent IV authorized torture. Under interrogation by Dominican priests, screaming victims were stretched, burned, pierced and broken on fiendish pain machines to make them confess to disbelief and to identify fellow transgressors. Inquisitor Robert le Bourge sent 183 people to the stake in a single week. "

"In Spain, where many Jews and Moors had converted to escape persecution, inquisitors sought those harboring their old faith. At least 2,000 Spanish backsliders were burned. Executions in other countries included the burning of scientists such as mathematician-philosopher Giordano Bruno, who espoused Copernicus's theory that the planets orbit the sun."

"When the Black Death swept Europe in 1348-1349, rumors alleged that it was caused by Jews poisoning wells. Hysterical mobs slaughtered thousands of Jews in several countries. In Speyer, Germany, the burned bodies were piled into giant wine casks and sent floating down the Rhine. In northern Germany Jews were walled up alive in their homes to suffocate or starve. The Flagellants, an army of penitents who whipped themselves bloody, stormed the Jewish quarter of Frankfurt in a gruesome massacre. The prince of Thuringia announced that he had burned his Jews for the honor of God. "

"The Aztecs began their elaborate theocracy in the 1300s and brought human sacrifice to a golden era. About 20,000 people were killed yearly to appease gods -- especially the sun god, who needed daily "nourishment" of blood. Hearts of sacrifice victims were cut out, and some bodies were eaten ceremoniously. Other victims were drowned, beheaded, burned or dropped from heights. In a rite to the rain god, shrieking children were killed at several sites so that their tears might induce rain. In a rite to the maize goddess, a virgin danced for 24 hours, then was killed and skinned; her skin was worn by a priest in further dancing. One account says that at King Ahuitzotl's coronation, 80,000 prisoners were butchered to please the gods."

"In the 1400s, the Inquisition shifted its focus to witchcraft. Priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they were witches who flew through the sky and engaged in sex with the devil -- then they were burned or hanged for their confessions. Witch hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations. Estimates of the number executed vary from 100,000 to 2 million. Whole villages were exterminated. In the first half of the 17th century, about 5,000 "witches" were put to death in the French province of Alsace, and 900 were burned in the Bavarian city of Bamberg. The witch craze was religious madness at its worst."

"The "Protestant Inquisition" is a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics."

"Protestant Huguenots grew into an aggressive minority in France in the 15OOs -- until repeated Catholic reprisals smashed them. On Saint Bartholomew's Day in 1572, Catherine de Medicis secretly authorized Catholic dukes to send their soldiers into Huguenot neighborhoods and slaughter families. This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. Other persecutions continued for two centuries, until the French Revolution. One group of Huguenots escaped to Florida; in 1565 a Spanish brigade discovered their colony, denounced their heresy, and killed them all."

"Members of lndia's Thuggee sect strangled people as sacrifices to appease the bloodthirsty goddess Kali, a practice beginning in the 1500s. The number of victims has been estimated to be as high as 2 million. Thugs were claiming about 20,000 lives a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped them out. At a trial in 1840, one Thug was accused of killing 931 people. Today, some Hindu priests still sacrifice goats to Kali. "

"The Anabaptists, communal "rebaptizers," were slaughtered by both Catholic and Protestant authorities. In Munster, Germany, Anabaptists took control of the city, drove out the clergymen, and proclaimed a New Zion. The bishop of Munster began an armed siege. While the townspeople starved, the Anabaptist leader proclaimed himself king and executed dissenters. When Munster finally fell, the chief Anabaptists were tortured to death with red-hot pincers and their bodies hung in iron cages from a church steeple."

"Oliver Cromwell was deemed a moderate because he massacred only Catholics and Anglicans, not other Protestants. This Puritan general commanded Bible-carrying soldiers, whom he roused to religious fervor. After decimating an Anglican army, Cromwell said, "God made them as stubble to our swords." He demanded the beheading of the defeated King Charles I, and made himself the holy dictator of England during the 1650s. When his army crushed the hated Irish Catholics, he ordered the execution of the surrendered defenders of Drogheda and their priests, calling it "a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches." "

"Ukrainian Bogdan Chmielnicki was a Cossack Cromwell. He wore the banner of Eastern Orthodoxy in a holy war against Jews and Polish Catholics. More than 100,000 were killed in this 17th-century bloodbath, and the Ukraine was split away from Poland to become part of the Orthodox Russian empire."

"The Thirty Years' War produced the largest religious death toll of all time. It began in 1618 when Protestant leaders threw two Catholic emissaries out of a Prague window into a dung heap. War flared between Catholic and Protestant princedoms, drawing in supportive religious armies from Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France and Italy. Sweden's Protestant soldiers sang Martin Luther's "Ein 'Feste Burg" in battle. Three decades of combat turned central Europe into a wasteland of misery. One estimate states that Germany's population dropped from 18 million to 4 million. In the end nothing was settled, and too few people remained to rebuild cities, plant fields, or conduct education."

"When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned."

"In 1723 the bishop of Gdansk, Poland, demanded that all Jews be expelled from the city. The town council declined, but the bishop's exhortations roused a mob that invaded the ghetto and beat the residents to death."

"Islamic jihads (holy wars), mandated by the Koran, killed millions over 12 centuries. In early years, Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India and west to Morocco. Then splintering sects branded other Muslims as infidels and declared jihads against them. The Kharijis battled Sunni rulers. The Azariqis decreed death to all "sinners" and their families. In 1804 a Sudanese holy man, Usman dan Fodio, waged a bloody jihad that broke the religious sway of the Sultan of Gobir. In the 1850s another Sudanese mystic, 'Umar al-Hajj, led a barbaric jihad to convert pagan African tribes -- with massacres, beheadings and a mass execution of 300 hostages. In the 1880s a third Sudanese holy man, Muhammad Ahmed, commanded a jihad that destroyed a 10,000-man Egyptian army and wiped out defenders of Khartoum led by British general Charles "Chinese" Gordon."

"In 1801 Orthodox priests in Bucharest, Romania, revived the story that Jews sacrificed Christians and drank their blood. Enraged parishioners stormed the ghetto and cut the throats of 128 Jews."

"When the Baha'i faith began in Persia in 1844, the Islamic regime sought to exterminate it. The Baha'i founder was imprisoned and executed in 1850. Two years later, the religious government massacred 20,000 Baha'is. Streets of Tehran were soaked with blood. The new Baha'i leader, Baha'ullah, was tortured and exiled in foreign Muslim prisons for the rest of his life."

"Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 "spotless" men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned. About 100 were actually buried before British governors stopped the ceremonies."

"In 1857 both Muslim and Hindu taboos triggered the Sepoy Mutiny in India. British rulers had given their native soldiers new paper cartridges that had to be bitten open. The cartridges were greased with animal tallow. This enraged Muslims, to whom pigs are unclean, and Hindus, to whom cows are sacred. Troops of both faiths went into a crazed mutiny, killing Europeans wantonly. At Kanpur, hundreds of European women and children were massacred after being promised safe passage."

"Late in the 19th century, with rebellion stirring in Russia, the czars attempted to divert public attention by helping anti-Semitic groups rouse Orthodox Christian hatred for Jews. Three waves of pogroms ensued -- in the 1880s, from 1903 to 1906, and during the Russian Revolution. Each wave was increasingly murderous. During the final period, 530 communities were attacked and 60,000 Jews were killed."

-- In the early 1900s, Muslim Turks waged genocide against Christian Armenians, and Christian Greeks and Balkans warred against the Islamic Ottoman Empire.

"When India finally won independence from Britain in 1947, the "great soul" of Mahatma Gandhi wasn't able to prevent Hindus and Muslims from turning on one another in a killing frenzy that took perhaps 1 million lives. Even Gandhi was killed by a Hindu who thought him too pro-Muslim."

"In the 1950s and 1960s, combat between Christians, animists and Muslims in Sudan killed more than 500,000." AND OF COURSE DARFUR TODAY

"In Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978, followers of the Rev. Jim Jones killed a visiting congressman and three newsmen, then administered cyanide to themselves and their children in a 900-person suicide that shocked the world."

"Islamic religious law decrees that thieves shall have their hands or feet chopped off, and unmarried lovers shall be killed. In the Sudan in 1983 and 1984, 66 thieves were axed in public. A moderate Muslim leader, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, was hanged for heresy in 1985 because he opposed these amputations. In Saudi Arabia a teen-age princess and her lover were executed in public in 1977. In Pakistan in 1987, a 25-year-old carpenter's daughter was sentenced to be stoned to death for engaging in unmarried sex. In the United Arab Emirates in 1984, a cook and a maid were sentenced to stoning for adultery -- but, as a show of mercy, the execution was postponed until after the maid's baby was born."

"In 1983 in Darkley, Northern Ireland, Catholic terrorists with automatic weapons burst into a Protestant church on a Sunday morning and opened fire, killing three worshipers and wounding seven. It was just one of hundreds of Catholic-Protestant ambushes that have taken 2,600 lives in Ulster since age-old religious hostility turned violent again in 1969."

"Hindu-Muslim bloodshed erupts randomly throughout India. More than 3,000 were killed in Assam province in 1983. In May 1984 Muslims hung dirty sandals on a Hindu leader's portrait as a religious insult. This act triggered a week of arson riots that left 216 dead, 756 wounded, 13,000 homeless, and 4,100 in jail."

"Religious tribalism -- segregation of sects into hostile camps -- has ravaged Lebanon continuously since 1975. News reports of the civil war tell of "Maronite Christian snipers," "Sunni Muslim suicide bombers," "Druze machine gunners," "Shi'ite Muslim mortar fire," and "Alawite Muslim shootings." Today 130,000 people are dead and a once-lovely nation is laid waste. "

"In Nigeria in 1982, religious fanatic followers of Mallam Marwa killed and mutilated several hundred people as heretics and infidels. They drank the blood of some of the victims. When the militia arrived to quell the violence, the cultists sprinkled themselves with blessed powder that they thought would make them impervious to police bullets. It didn't."

"Today's Shi'ite theocracy in Iran -- "the government of God on earth" -- decreed that Baha'i believers who won't convert shall be killed. About 200 stubborn Baha'is were executed in the early 1980s, including women and teenagers. Up to 40,000 Baha'is fled the country. Sex taboos in Iran are so severe that: (1) any woman who shows a lock of hair is jailed; (2) Western magazines being shipped into the country first go to censors who laboriously black out all women's photos except for faces; (3) women aren't allowed to ski with men, but have a separate slope where they may ski in shrouds."

"In 1983 a revered Muslim leader, Mufti Sheikh Sa'ad e-Din el'Alami of Jerusalem, issued a fatwa (an order of divine deliverance) promising an eternal place in paradise to any Muslim assassin who would kill President Hafiz al-Assad of Syria. "

"Sikhs want to create a separate theocracy, Khalistan (Land of the Pure), in the Punjab region of India. Many heed the late extremist preacher Jarnail Bhindranwale, who taught his followers that they have a "religious duty to send opponents to hell." Throughout the 1980s they sporadically murdered Hindus to accomplish this goal. In 1984, after Sikh guards riddled prime minister Indira Gandhi with 50 bullets, Hindus went on a rampage that killed 5,000 Sikhs in three days. Mobs dragged Sikhs from homes, stores, buses and trains, chopping and pounding them to death. Some were burned alive; boys were castrated."

etc etc etc

Religious Riddle

Q: what did the Jewish guy say the Muslim guy and the Christian guy?

A: Just calm down there is more then enough for both of you.

[jbg]

Sorry my opinion differs a bit I fully place the blame for the violence on the Muslim community. It is not enough to just come out with disapproving statements. The problem clearly lies with the Muslim community and they should be the ones to take the bull by the horns and repair the system that tends to allow extremism to exist, I know the answer will be that there are very few extremists. But these extremist are operating within their community so it is up to them to police and remedy the problem not the infidels.

Not withstanding I agree the infidels have created the circumstances which cause these extremists to rebel but there is a right way and a wrong way to confront the situation.

Spot on. I have nothing to add to this post.

[northstar]

First, the BBC reports that this began with, completely show the Hypocracy of the Muslims' statements.

First, the Islamists are stating that it is okay to terrorize with Suicide Bombers in one place but not okay if it is in another. i.e. this statement is not applicable in Kashmir and Palestine, in these places terrorism is fine and dandy.

Then, the Islamists state that if it is interrupting the Muslims Service it is 'deplorable'.

However the deception, SCRIPTURALLY APPROVED BY THE QURAN, is found in the next paragraph,

The move is an attempt to stop suicide bombers carrying out attacks on places of worship in Pakistan.

But the decree does not apply to bombings in Kashmir or Palestine.

You know, this is soooo true to a good little Jihad, Mohammad taught deception. You go in peace, and then demand conversion, no conversion, oh no problem we will enslave children, and extort you so we can have a nice MECCA, or we might just kill you...all in the name of ALLAH.

He said that an act of terrorism - whether on an individual or collective level - was deplorable.

But, he said, the line of demarcation between terrorist activity and a freedom struggle has to be clearly defined.

However, the head of a well-known seminary for mainstream Sunni Muslims in Lahore, Sarfraz Naeemi refused to sign the decree.

So we can clearly see that once it is acknowledged to be deplorable, it is then acceptable to blow yourself up and murder innocent people in the name of ALLAH if it is "a freedom struggle"....tricky little play on words, Mohammad would be proud.

This Muslimism is justified by sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....."

and sura 5:33: "For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land".

Naturally, the Quran is more definate and to the point, issuing out instructions, 161 of them, on what will befall the non-Muslims, should they not convert...so Suicide Bombers are scripturally approved and rewarded.

[M.Dancer]

However the deception, SCRIPTURALLY APPROVED BY THE QURAN, is found in the next paragraph,

Oh my gosh...another koranic scholar......meanwhile in the land of so what.......

[northstar]

really...if it is 'so what' then why did you start the thread...a little moronic of you since you are unable to contribute anything but ignorant statements when someone contributes...

[jbg]

really...if it is 'so what' then why did you start the thread...a little moronic of you since you are unable to contribute anything but ignorant statements when someone contributes...

As much as I enjoy your Koranic insights, these links tell the story (each color a different part of the story of Islam) in all its greatness.