RCMP: Break it up

[August1991]

One thing about using the RCMP as a municipal force is that you don't get people with local knowledge in your police force until they have been there for some time and there is no guarantee that they will be there for a long time. This isn't a knock on the officers, it's just the way it is.

The RCMP has a policy of not posting officers from a province to work in the province itself. This was one reason the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary was recreated so that Newfoundlanders could work in their own province.

You'll notice that many RCMP officers in Western Canada come from the Maritimes (like many of Canada's military - I think Harper will do well in the Maritimes for this reason alone).

I have never lived in Quebec or Ontario so I don't know what their local provincial forces are like. I don't know that some of the smaller provinces could establish their own forces. Perhaps they could and it might be cheaper and more responsive.

IME, RCMP officers are proud of their connection in a way that the SQ and OPP are not. At bottom though, they're all cops.

It would be unthinkable (and foolish) to have the RCMP perform tasks like the SQ in Quebec. (Canada is an asymetrical federation and Quebec is a distinct society - but like Moliere's Jourdain's discovery of prose, Canadians speak it but don't seek it.) As to Quebec itself, the Montreal police force rivals the SQ but is different.

For several reasons, I think having provincial police forces makes sense and I'm surprised that Alberta doesn't have one. In fact, one reason I don't take Albertan separatism seriously is because I have never seen an Albertan (politician or citizen) argue for an Albertan police force.

[August1991]

Nonsense. The problem with the RCMP is the same as the any other large organization - leadership. And the leadership problems of the RCMP are all political, due to the tinkering and interference by their political masters. The RCMP commisioner has been little more than a toady to the PMO since Multoney's time. The current commisioner has allowed the RCMP to be used for political reasons, even in violation of the law, and to harrass Chretien's political oppents. He should be fired, and the relationship between the RCMP and the federal government should be adjusted to minimize political interference.

Leadership? That's the only problem?

The final day of the inquest saw only one witness, Edmonton police constable Joe Slemko, an internationally recognized expert in blood stain analysis and crime scene reconstruction. Because he was not at the hearing representing the Edmonton police department, it was agreed he would be referred to as Mr. Slemko.

Most of the world already knew what he was here to say: The blood stain evidence taken from the scene was inconsistent with Constable Paul Koester's story of how he shot Ian Bush.

That is, that Mr. Bush was on top of him, squeezing the life out of him, when he somehow got his gun out of the holster and contorted his arm in such a way that it allowed him to pistol whip the 22-year-old mill worker three times before firing a bullet into the back of his head.

G & M

The RCMP waited three months to interview the constable who shot and killed a 22-year-old millworker and provided his lawyer with a copy of their questions beforehand, an inquest into the in-custody death heard Wednesday.

Cpl. Rick Murray, who ran the investigation, testified officers were unable to question rookie RCMP Const. Paul Koester after the Oct. 29, 2005 slaying because at various times his lawyer, his wife and even his mother told them no.

They never spoke directly to the 28-year-old officer who had been on the job only five months.

Link

The problem is not only in the leadership. It is also in the rank and file.

And what is the reaction when the RCMP gets a civilian commissioner?

Fife said senior RCMP officers have told him Elliot's appointment felt like a "demoralizing blow, a slap in their face."

"They feel they're being punished for the mistakes and scandal that happened under former commissioner Zaccardelli and a few people who worked under him," said Fife.

He added that some officers view Elliott as a "political operator" who got his start under the government of Brian Mulroney.

CTV

The RCMP should be disbanded and renamed as the Federal Police Agency. It should only apply federal law. Each province should have its own police force as is the case in Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland.

[geoffrey]

It seems to me that if the RCMP in Ottawa concentrated on enforcing federal law, it might have a chance of being more competent. It's not as if this would be a radical change. Three provinces already do this themselves. And on this forum, there are several who argue that Alberta should be more autonomous. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

The division of power between police forces would also allow more independance in the oversight provided between them.

At present, the RCMP tries to do too many things and is too sprawling a bureaucracy. Maybe that explains the poor leadership.

No maybe about it. I think your exactly right here. The RCMP does all in some areas of Canada. That just doesn't make sense. Focusing them on Federal law enforcement issues (notably terrorism, people trafficking, ect.) would be a much more reasonable approach.

You make no sense. I see no reason why curtailing the size of the force is going to lead to better leadership. If Alberta likes to have the RCMP police its highways, that's up to them. Maybe they like the tradition of it.

Actually, the RCMP no longer patrols the highways in Alberta. We have non-police doing it. The Sheriff department in Alberta is responsible for highway traffic enforcement. That said, the RCMP will still pull you over and do conduct some speed traps, but we do have a distinct highway patrol.

Maybe it's step one.

It's not about curtailing the size of the force Argus, it's about dividing up the responsibilities to better provide accountability.

[jdobbin]

The RCMP should be disbanded and renamed as the Federal Police Agency. It should only apply federal law. Each province should have its own police force as is the case in Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland.

I don't see Harper putting that idea on the table.

And if the federal police force should be broken up, why not the provincial forces? They OPP has its own long list of problems.

I think the Sydney, Nova Scotia force which took over RCMP policing in its region might be more your model. They are now bidding and winning police work elsewhere.

Why not private police? The Pinkertons could bid on Quebec policing.

If privatizing things is your game, you should go whole hog on the process not just nibble at the edges.

[AngusThermopyle]

It's just my opinion but I don't think the RCMP should be disbanded.

I constantly hear that Canadians have nothing to look to for an identity. Thats not entirely true. The Mounties are known in many places around the world and as such form a very large part of Canada's visible identity. As a little kid growing up in Liverpool I didn't know where Canada was exactly, but I sure as hell knew what a Mountie was and where they came from.

There should be a major overhaul done though. I'm not sure what would work. It would have to involve some form of independent oversight committee. And it wouldn't hurt to take a good hard look at the command structure. Cronyism is usually present in these kinds of institutions.

[geoffrey]

How much inefficency, corruption and waste are you willing to put up with for "Canadian heritage"?

[AngusThermopyle]

Did you actually read what I posted?

I do believe I talked about a major review of this institution being due didn't I?

Do you really believe the better course of action in this case would be to tear down this institution rather than rebuild it?

[Alexandra]

The RCMP should be disbanded and renamed as the Federal Police Agency. It should only apply federal law. Each province should have its own police force as is the case in Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland.

Agreed the RCMP should be a true federal force only, with it's headquarters in Ottawa. The provinces should definitely organize and operate their own provincial-territory and municipal forces.

But. In my opinion, The federal force should forever be the ROYAL Canadian Mounted Police. It is probably one of the last vestiges of what some or most (when asked to identify what they consider to be a Canadian) Canadians consider their 'national' identity.

Out of curiosity August why would you even consider renaming the RCMP?

`

[Argus]

In the wake of the Arar imbroglio, maybe the RCMP should be broken up.

In particular, I have never understood why the RCMP is involved in local policing. In Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, general policing is done by provincial police or municipal police. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

What has local policing got to do with whatever happened (we still don't really know) with Arar? How do we even know it was the RCMP and not CSIS?

Local policing by the RCMP is one of those Canadian traditions that you attach no importance to because the only culture you have any concern for is that of Quebec.

[Argus]

Isn't this a bit of a knee jerk reaction? Every single immigrant who is sent packing plays the fear of persecution card. If one out of thousands actually gets tortured do we really have to revamp OUR policing?

Yes.

The cause of the torture was faulty conduct.

By Arar's own police in his own country.

Irrespective of your inhuman insensitivity to the torment of your fellow man, you must understand that the incompetence demonstrated by the RCMP is cause for profound concern if you want a useful and effective police force.

What exactly did the RCMP do wrong?

[Argus]

The question is not knee jerk or anything even close. It has shown the RCMP were never trained for national security work and they failed in that so completely, that they were just doing as they were told by the USA.

It was shown? By whom? In what way?

That is not what we wwant in our country. CSIS should be the one for this type of work and yes it may have to expand, but at least it will have trained the people to do the job.

CSIS is no more trained than the RCMP. The primary requirements to enter CSIS are (1) fluency in French, and (2) a university degree in any field.

The RCMP were never meant to be doing spy work and International co-operation type agendas. It was dumped on them in the after math of 9/11 and they dropped the ball badly. Now is the time to see that and rectify it before it happens again.

How did they "drop the ball badly"? Because one Syrian immigrant was incorrectly suspected of being aligned in some way with terrorists? Is it your belief that a properly trained, properly set up agency would never make mistakes, would never mistake an innocent man for a guilty man, nor the reverse?

[Argus]

The RCMP waited three months to interview the constable who shot and killed a 22-year-old millworker and provided his lawyer with a copy of their questions beforehand, an inquest into the in-custody death heard Wednesday.

Cpl. Rick Murray, who ran the investigation, testified officers were unable to question rookie RCMP Const. Paul Koester after the Oct. 29, 2005 slaying because at various times his lawyer, his wife and even his mother told them no.

They never spoke directly to the 28-year-old officer who had been on the job only five months.

Link

The problem is not only in the leadership. It is also in the rank and file.

Any problems in the rank and file are due to poor leadership, and I could easily put together a long list of the incompetency and corruption in the Surete du Quebec and the Montreal police. Should they be broken up too? They are probably the most incompetent major police forces in north America, with the worst rank and file police. Odd you show no concern there.

The RCMP should be disbanded and renamed as the Federal Police Agency. It should only apply federal law. Each province should have its own police force as is the case in Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland.

Why don't you mind your own business, August? The RCMP have little to do with Quebec, anyway. So why do you care? Worry about the lousy state of policing in your own province.

[jdobbin]

Just a guess on the likely outcome of having an outsider brought in to run the RCMP: I think he will be sabotaged at every turn.

There have been several examples of outsiders brought in to run city police forces and being run into the ground by a resentful force. I think the example of Winnipeg bringing in Cassels as chief only to have the force resist and sabotage him at every turn is a case in point.

[August1991]

Why don't you mind your own business, August? The RCMP have little to do with Quebec, anyway. So why do you care? Worry about the lousy state of policing in your own province.

You're all over the map here, Argus. You go from Syria to Quebec to Saskatchewan and back. Maybe you do this because the RCMP's screw-ups have been too many to ignore.

To my knowledge, the SQ has not made as many errors (that have come to light anyway) as the RCMP. Quebec has a problem of collapsing viaducts, but as far as I know, its police officers haven't filched any police pension funds.

And anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Argus, you fail on two points. First, you are ostrich-like in your inability to see the giant elephant standing right beside you on the savannah. The RCMP has serious problems and these problems are not simply due to bad management at the top. It was local people that chose to let Koester wait three months before questioning and then feed Koester's lawyers all questions in advance.

The RCMP provides a minor glimpse into what a totalitarian state is like. (Imagine if the RCMP, as well intentioned as it is, ran Canada's government. These latest scandals would never have come to light and they would have been dealt with internally. The sheer incompetence beneath these scandals would come to govern our government. Such was the Soviet Union.)

IMV, the appointment of a civilian commissioner is a good first step (incidentally, Elliott's not the first non-RCMP to be commissioner). Simply put, the RCMP needs more oversight. But that's not all.

Second Argus, you are wrong to believe that the RCMP should (or will) stay as is. I'm with Trudeau on this one. He did the right thing by setting up CSIS and breaking off the RCMP's intelligence role.

The next step is to break off the local policing role. Let Alberta revert to the original name and call its force the North West Mounted Police. The Royal Manitoba Police has a nice ring to it, or how about the Royal Saskatchewan?

If you people want to keep the word Royal, do it at the provincial level. But the federal police force should not have the word royal in its name (OMG! - did August just say that?). More important, a federal police force should only apply federal law in federal jurisdictions.

Just a guess on the likely outcome of having an outsider brought in to run the RCMP: I think he will be sabotaged at every turn.

There was a good article making a comparison between Elliot's problem at the RCMP and Nortel:

As it happens, there is a private company that offers clear insight into the situation facing Elliott. Three years ago, Nortel Networks -- which is only slightly bigger than the RCMP in terms of employees - sacked 10 of its most senior executives for their role in cooking the company's books.

That move proved just the beginning of a tortuous process to restore the company's good name. For 18 months, Nortel was run by Bill Owens, a board member with limited history in the telecommunications equipment business - the company's primary focus.

Owens spent most of his tenure getting up to speed on Nortel's dozens of business units and myriad technologies. He then made a series of investment decisions that later had to be reversed because they made little sense economically -- most notably his move to supply an India-based wireless contract at a huge loss.

Elliott, the RCMP's top gun, has a similar lack of experience in his new field. Trained as a lawyer, Elliott has spent decades in senior civil jobs in the departments of Transport, Coast Guard, Security and Intelligence and Public Safety.

...

Consider the challenge faced by Bill Owens' successor as CEO at Nortel, Mike Zafirovski.

A former senior executive at Motorola, one of high-tech's more storied franchises, Zafirovski is a supremely talented workaholic with a rock-solid reputation for getting things done.

In the 20 months since his hiring as CEO, Zafirovski has replaced more than half the company's senior executives, closed or sold off a couple of unprofitable business units, resolved a major class-action lawsuit and finally put Nortel on a (barely) profitable footing.

Ottawa Citizen

I believe that Argus thinks as I do about the ultimate competence of Ottawa's mandarinate - in Ottawa, the cream doesn't rise to the top. Elliot's "success" in Ottawa's bureaucracy means nothing more than that he's probably won a few lotteries - or as Argus would say, he speaks French.

Several decades ago, the Ottawa system was capable of filtering and promoting competent managers. I don't think that's the case anymore. But that discussion is for another thread.

Bottom line? Elliott will likely be sacked in a year or two and then there'll be a new RCMP Commissioner who will break up the RCMP, spinning off divisions.

[fellowtraveller]

how the police treat one of their own

Constable Slemko gets shafted.........

"University of Alberta criminologist Bill Pitt, a former RCMP officer, is familiar with Slemko's work as a blood-spatter expert. He said the charges against him have nothing to do with the quality of his analysis.

"He has an outstanding record and is held in very high esteem around the world," Pitt said. "His mistake is that he breached the unwritten code that you never give evidence against another police officer and he has been made to pay for that by the EPS."

Pitt said that, in theory, the police are supposed to be objective and unbiased in their gathering and presentation of evidence. But in reality, they always side with the prosecution.

"They won't like to hear that, but it's true," Pitt said. "Everyone wants to say they are unbiased, but the fact is, it is about winning. It's about supporting the prosecution. It's about getting a conviction."

Slemko's stand for objectivity, while laudable, can't succeed within the existing police culture and he will continue to be an outsider, in constant conflict with his superiors and other officers, he said.

"Joe is a standup guy but he is caught in a web of politics. Unfortunately, he is paid by the EPS, he is bound by their conditions of employment and if he doesn't like it, he should leave. With his qualifications and reputation, he would make far more as a private consultant anyway."

So why doesn't he just quit?

"I am still proud to be a police officer and I am not going to let them win," the 46-year-old Slemko said. "And I want my 25-year pension. I am not going to jeopardize my family's financial welfare just because there is risk and stress involved in standing up for what you believe is right.""

[FTA Lawyer]

In what way does an expert police officer testifying in an objective and unbiased manner affect his ability to properly carry out his duties?

If he is hired as a prosecution expert and the blood-spatter analysis doesn't support the Crown's theory of the case does he have to lie to avoid getting in trouble with the Executive Office of the EPS?

If they refuse to call him as a witness becuase he won't spew the prosecution's preferred slant and get a hack to come in and give the expert opinion they want, is he wrong to speak out against that?

Why is the only option suggested for a man of integrity and a true sense of justice and fairness to leave the police force? Have we really reached a point in our society that someone who fits this bill is unfit to be a police officer?

What in the hell is going on in this country?!?!

FTA

[guyser]

In what way does an expert police officer testifying in an objective and unbiased manner affect his ability to properly carry out his duties?

If he is hired as a prosecution expert and the blood-spatter analysis doesn't support the Crown's theory of the case does he have to lie to avoid getting in trouble with the Executive Office of the EPS?

If they refuse to call him as a witness becuase he won't spew the prosecution's preferred slant and get a hack to come in and give the expert opinion they want, is he wrong to speak out against that?

Why is the only option suggested for a man of integrity and a true sense of justice and fairness to leave the police force? Have we really reached a point in our society that someone who fits this bill is unfit to be a police officer?

What in the hell is going on in this country?!?!

FTA

I would have thought you could provide some answers since I thought you have worked for/against some police in the past.

The thin blue line......and they wonder why public respect drops.

[GostHacked]

FTA

Why is the only option suggested for a man of integrity and a true sense of justice and fairness to leave the police force?

"His mistake is that he breached the unwritten code that you never give evidence against another police officer and he has been made to pay for that by the EPS."

After readin the article, it is clear that Policeing is messed. Just some other 'boys club' That man should be promoted instead of fired.

[Argus]

Why don't you mind your own business, August? The RCMP have little to do with Quebec, anyway. So why do you care? Worry about the lousy state of policing in your own province.

You're all over the map here, Argus. You go from Syria to Quebec to Saskatchewan and back. Maybe you do this because the RCMP's screw-ups have been too many to ignore.

To my knowledge, the SQ has not made as many errors (that have come to light anyway) as the RCMP. Quebec has a problem of collapsing viaducts, but as far as I know, its police officers haven't filched any police pension funds.

The entire system of policing in Quebec is lousy with nepotism, corruption, incompetence and far too much labour power for police unions. The main problem, however, is a sheep-like populace which blindly accepts any amount of police incompetence without complaint. In no other province could a police officer on a raid fire his automatic weapon through the door of a motel and kill a completely innocent man in his sleep, not only be found not guilty of any wrongdoing, but promoted. In no other province could a police officer shoot a handcuffed man in the back of the head and get away with a claim that his weapon was malfunctioning. In no other province could a police officer beat up a man who complained of his double parking - said beating captured from beginning to end on camera, and be found not guilt of wrongdoing. In no other province I'm aware of has a police officer been shot to death while investigating a warehouse break-in, and another police officer been found guilty. Quebec police generally have lower standards overall than other province with regard to training, and it shows. They are more prone to abuse of power than anywhere else in Canada I've heard of. They have poorer supervision, and even when they are charged with crimes they are generally let off with a slap on the wrist or nothing.

The RCMP provides a minor glimpse into what a totalitarian state is like.

That's funny. People on this side of the Quebec border who have occasion to journey across it think Quebec police provide a major glimpse of what a third-world banana republic's police are like.

(Imagine if the RCMP, as well intentioned as it is, ran Canada's government. These latest scandals would never have come to light and they would have been dealt with internally.

You mean like how Chretien stonewalled all demands for inquiries and investigations? You mean like that?

Second Argus, you are wrong to believe that the RCMP should (or will) stay as is. I'm with Trudeau on this one. He did the right thing by setting up CSIS and breaking off the RCMP's intelligence role.

And a real swell job they're doing too. Wasn't it them that provided the information that got Arar arrested in the first place?

If you people want to keep the word Royal, do it at the provincial level. But the federal police force should not have the word royal in its name (OMG! - did August just say that?). More important, a federal police force should only apply federal law in federal jurisdictions.

We in English Canada like the RCMP as it is. Sure it has its share of problems, but I maintain they arise because of the erosion of the arms length separation there is supposed to be with the politicians - who are a notoriously sleazy bunch with no respect for rules. You don't destroy an institution because of a few problems at the top - and don't tell me about individual officers who are screwups because you can't find a police force, or any large organization, without the equivalent).

[Moxie]

First let me ask any of the posters who advocate turning LOL the RCMP into a Federal Force "Only" have any idea how law enforcement works? I live in a mountie town, we the little people of the town pay for this service and I hate to break it you but if they were religated to investigating only Federal Crimes across Canada we would need a force a quarter of it's current size. It's assine to think the tax payers would consider footing a bill for a Federal Unit only, it's a waste of tax payers dollars period. The RCMP have issues but by and large they do a bang up job policing our communities, however they lack experience in investigating FEDERAL crimes because our crime rate is a fraction of the US. It would be far better if we sent those who get promoted to do a tenure with a US policing agency, they gain experience and we'd have confident officers who are trained to investigate. The RCMP is top heavy with leaders who bow before politicians, severe that tie and we'd have a force to be proud of.

Note: All police officers are required to enforce, the motor vehicle act, Municipal laws, Provincial laws and Federal Laws and carry out certain functions under British Common Law (civil law) they cannot pick and choose what they shall enforce and that is the way it should be.

[fellowtraveller]

More important, a federal police force should only apply federal law in federal jurisdictions.

So the Soveriegn Mounted Police will handle all Criminal Code of Canada issues, and each province will create their own police force to hand out parking and speeding tickets.

yeah , that makes real sense.

I can see the OPP and QPP jumping all over that bandwagon.

[geoffrey]

Local policing by the RCMP is one of those Canadian traditions that you attach no importance to because the only culture you have any concern for is that of Quebec.

Funny how an anglophone from Ontario/Alberta shares this supposedly Quebecois view?

So the Soveriegn Mounted Police will handle all Criminal Code of Canada issues, and each province will create their own police force to hand out parking and speeding tickets.

yeah , that makes real sense.

I can see the OPP and QPP jumping all over that bandwagon.

Alberta has already done it. The Alberta Sheriff's department handles highway patrols now. The RCMP obviously still can hand out tickets if they wish, but they have been left more open to do other tasks, like deal with real crime.

Provincial police forces to deal with community policing is the way to go. It creates levels of independant oversight if anything was to go wrong, and brings accountability that much closer to the public.

The RCMP has had it's day. It's time to do like the rest of the world and have an independant Federal Force (the RCMP) and seperate community policing agencies.

[uOttawaMan]

So you want to disband Provincial forces, establish all municipal/community police services, and have the RCMP do the rest ( minus the border protection handled by the CBSA).

OR is it more you want an FBI style organisation as the RCMP.. and have all municiapl and provincial (read state police forces) take care of the everyday stuff and have the RCMP handle the major crimes.?

[geoffrey]

OR is it more you want an FBI style organisation as the RCMP.. and have all municiapl and provincial (read state police forces) take care of the everyday stuff and have the RCMP handle the major crimes.?

Yes.

[August1991]

Aside from filching pension funds, nepotism and chiefs who lie, the RCMP has problems even at the cop on the beat level.

This is an organization that is past its "best by date" and it requires serious reform. Maybe, to pick up on a Leafless or Argus meme, a Federal organization that is supposed to be bilingual simply can't function in local communities across western Canada.

A man who witnessed a Taser incident at Vancouver International Airport last Sunday said security at the facility and RCMP are to blame for the death of a distraught man in the terminal who didn't understand English.

Lorne Meltzer insists the RCMP were too hasty to use the Taser.

Lorne Meltzer, a corporate valet, told CBC News Thursday he was at the airport picking up a client just before 1:30 a.m. Sunday and found himself facing Robert Dziekanski.

He said he tried to calm an agitated Dziekanski, 40, in the public arrivals area and unwittingly let the Polish immigrant back into the secure international arrivals area, using his pass to open the one-way doors.

CBC

A video depicting the death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski at the hands of police should be made public, according to the Victoria man who filmed the Oct. 14 Taser incident at Vancouver International Airport.

But after handing over the tape to police - under assurances it would be returned within 48 hours - Paul Pritchard, 25, is wondering what RCMP are trying to hide by not giving it back.

"There is a lot of speculation about what happened but if they let everyone see [the video], everyone is going to know the truth," contends Pritchard, who hired Victoria lawyer Paul Pearson to get the tape back through B.C. Supreme Court. "Maybe there's something on there that they don't want us to see."

Pritchard told 24 hours he feels "screwed over" by RCMP.

"I had the right to keep the video to myself, but I thought I was helping," he said. "I feel sick to my stomach. What's their right to turn on me like this?"

In a statement yesterday, RCMP's Integrated Homicide Investigation Team said releasing the video "could clearly compromise the investigators goal of conducting a fair and unbiased investigation."

Link

This is absolutely terrible PR for the RCMP. Even if they have grounds to keep the tape, they are not getting their message out. First, the local RCMP (falsely) gave assurances it would be returned. Second, the RCMP's media people have bungled the relations since.