A primer on Muslim "Anger"

[jbg]

I was going to add this as a response to a post on another board. I decided it merited separate discussion.

God, haven't you war mongers learned anything from Iraq? Bombing Iran for whatever reason would simply further inflame Islamacists and lead to even more terrorist attacks. Futhermore, when Iran eventually gets the bomb (it will eventually) the chances of them using it will be much higher. Negotiation is the only option available at this time.

A bit of history about the Muslims is in order.

During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples), the purposeless plugging with sand of water wells dug by Abraham and Isaac are but some examples. The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures".

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments. In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude.

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americasns to crack down rather than pay tribute.

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking. Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened? Then as now, there are producers, and there are extorters and takers. After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations".

An old radio piece by Gordon Sinclair says it best:

The Americans

Gordon Sinclair

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

[Riverwind]

A bit of history about the Muslims is in order.

What is your point? Anyone with a desire to smear Christians could come up with a similar selection of historical facts that 'prove' that all Christians are barbarians.

Human nature is quite simple: kick people around and they will kick back.

History is full of viscous conflicts where both sides would be able able to point to a long list of wrongs done by the other that justified their attacks. These vicious circles of violence only end when one side has the maturity and strength to choose to not hit back. Western societies are culturally and economically strong. We have the power to choose not to engage in tit for tat violence with Muslims. In the short term such a strategy also appears to be a losing strategy. In the long term it is a winning strategy because we lead by example.

[jbg]

These vicious circles of violence only end when one side has the maturity and strength to choose to not hit back.

Pre-Holocaust, the Jews did not hit back. We know the results.

Never again.

[Borg]

Kill them there or kill them here and let God sort it out?

In all actuality it may come to that.

It is fine for the muslim to preach hate and go unpunished for they the victim -they will always tell you so. Not so for those of fair skin and blonde hair though.

Anyone seen a mullah jailed for a hate crime?

Borg

[Borg]

We have the power to choose not to engage in tit for tat violence with Muslims. In the short term such a strategy also appears to be a losing strategy. In the long term it is a winning strategy because we lead by example.

That one does make me laugh.

Peace through strength - "examples" are not strength.

Negotiations are only valid if each side is prepared to give up something they deem to be of value - and then live with the bargain.

Not going to happen - only a fool would believe it.

"Examples" do not protect the future. They certainly will not stop those intent upon "convert or die" doctrine. When one side values life and the other does not there is little to negotiate.

You appear to have lived a very sheltered life. Time to get out of the library and into the real world.

Borg

[jbg]

Negotiations are only valid if each side is prepared to give up something they deem to be of value - and then live with the bargain.

Not going to happen - only a fool would believe it.

Especially when a "peace" for them is a "houdna", or temporary cessation of violence.

[Riverwind]

You appear to have lived a very sheltered life. Time to get out of the library and into the real world.

I would say you have spent too much of your life watching action movies that you have forgotten how to be a human being. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are not our enemies, however, we will turn them into enemies if we treat them like enemies and bomb their countries because their leaders don't lick our boots.

I repeat - we are in a position of strength. We have the power. We can choose to not react. In the long run we can prevail without being thugs like the Muslims that are trying to provoke us. In fact, I beleive that is the only path to a peaceful future. If the US bombs Iran over this nuclear issue we will be heading towards a generation of upheaval and bloodshed. You are incrediblely naive if you believe you can create peace with war - especially 'preemptive' wars.

[Borg]

You appear to have lived a very sheltered life. Time to get out of the library and into the real world.

I would say you have spent too much of your life watching action movies that you have forgotten how to be a human being. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are not our enemies, however, we will turn them into enemies if we treat them like enemies and bomb their countries because their leaders don't lick our boots.

I repeat - we are in a position of strength. We have the power. We can choose to not react. In the long run we can prevail without being thugs like the Muslims that are trying to provoke us. In fact, I beleive that is the only path to a peaceful future. If the US bombs Iran over this nuclear issue we will be heading towards a generation of upheaval and bloodshed. You are incrediblely naive if you believe you can create peace with war - especially 'preemptive' wars.

Movies? I truly wish this were the case.

We have no strength and we have no power because we will not use it. If we dared to use it - then we have power - but the west is weak because it has vast numbers of people who have no stomach to fight. Mulsims know this and will use it to their advantage. Those who believe that turning the other cheek will create peace are wrong. In fact it gets the other cheek slapped.

Let's not speak of your fancy nukes and your lofty ideals. Let us speak of simply telling the truth.

While I do not usually let personal info out I will go this far-> I did more than a couple of tours and they were not your touristy guided tours with five start hotels.

Peace through strength.

In fact the west is in an incredibly dangerous and precarious situation - because people like you think like a westerner. And those who would kill us want you to keep thinking that way. In fact they will do everything in their power to convince you that you are on the right track.

It is perfectly acceptable to lie, cheat and kill in order to further the religion. For killing a non-believer is not a sin.

Islam does not translate into peace - despite the falsehood promoted by those who follow the religion in this country.

It translates into submit. One of my "colleagues" who did make a serious attempt to harm me during one incident in one of the sand boxes I was in often stated it really means - "submit, convert or suffer the consequences you non believer".

Oh, by the way this was one of the guys on our side.

Fact - muslims are taught - Any non-believer can be taken and used as a cow - then disposed of in any manner - and no sin is committed. These are not radicals - this is taught to all.

Lots more but you do not have the ability to comprehend that because you believe there is a chance for peace through taking the high road.

You will be dead before you actually start that trip.

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Not one - repeat - not one will disobey a mullah. Religion is far more important to them than any law or friendship or relationship that western non-believers could ever understand.

Mullahs control everything - by not allowing television, radios and books - they control the masses. The only book allowed on many parts of their world is the Koran and if a man does not memorize it and follow the teachings of his mullah he is in deep doo doo.

We have imported this to our continent and we are now in serious trouble - watch for it - it will come and then it will be too late. It is recognized in many circles but it is never spoken of in public forum because it is too hot a potato. Plus - that person would be charged with hate crimes!!! Go figure.

Death to the infidel is a very serious thing to them. They are quite willing to use subterfuge and false friendships to further their goals.

You need to get out more - perhaps see the world a bit.

Enough of me - how about you? Think you are ready to travel and see for yourself?

You can join me when I go on yet aother trip - potentially within the next few months.

Otherwise go back to your library and your wine and your fine friends who tell you that you are strong because you can take getting pissed upon. Sooner or later you will be forced to react - I sincerely hope you have the strength to do so before it is too late. I somehow doubt you wil find that strength - I hope you do but I sincerely doubt it.

Riverwind - you are probably more dangerous to this country than most - simply because you are an idiot.

Insult me back so I can get on with life.

Borg

[Riverwind]

In fact the west is in an incredibly dangerous and precarious situation - because people like you think like a westerner. And those who would kill us want you to keep thinking that way. In fact they will do everything in their power to convince you that you are on the right track.

Nobody but a few extremists wants to 'kill' us. Muslims, like all humans, want control over their own destiny. You are talking like a police officer who spends all of his life dealing with the scum of society and forgets that the vast majority of people are not like that.

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Not one - repeat - not one will disobey a mullah. Religion is far more important to them than any law or friendship or relationship that western non-believers could ever understand.

Rubbish. I know many personally. Some even wear a hijab as a sign of their faith. They respect and value this country as much as we do.

I sincerely hope you have the strength to do so before it is too late. I somehow doubt you will find that strength - I hope you do but I sincerely doubt it.

There are times when it is necessary to react with force but now is not the time. I fully supported the military campaign in Afghanistan after 9/11 - getting rid of the Al Qaeda bases was absolutely necessary. I believed the battle in Afghanistan would have been winnable if the US had put those 140,000+ troops on the ground there instead of running off on that fools errand in Iraq. I believe that the Canadian troops in Afghanistan today are doing their best but they are too few and have been starved for equipment over the decades. I was very happy to hear that Harper boosted spending on military equipment. I fully support increasing funding more. I am not a person that believes we do not need to defend ourselves. I am just a person that believes that we must choose the time to fight carefully.

In 2003, I defended the US position because I agreed that Saddam was a brute and that the world would be better off without him although I was concerned that the the cost in lives and material would be too high. At the time I said that it was really dumb thing to do but if the US really wanted to do it then that is their choice. I was frankly surprised how badly the War in Iraq has gone.

Unfortuantely, the war in Iraq has completely undermined our position - even the US spy agencies agree. And now I hear the idiots in Washington talking about starting another war with Iran. Enough is enough. The incompetent war mongers in Washington have run the show for the last 5 years and they have failed miserably. Now is the time to try a different strategy.

Riverwind - you are probably more dangerous to this country than most

No - people who insist on painting other human beings as evil or sub-human and peddle fear and paranoia are the most dangerous people to this country.

[jbg]

In 2003, I defended the US position because I agreed that Saddam was a brute and that the world would be better off without him although I was concerned that the the cost in lives and material would be too high. At the time I said that it was really dumb thing to do but if the US really wanted to do it then that is their choice. I was frankly surprised how badly the War in Iraq has gone.

Unfortuantely, the war in Iraq has completely undermined our position - even the US spy agencies agree. And now I hear the idiots in Washington talking about starting another war with Iran. Enough is enough. The incompetent war mongers in Washington have run the show for the last 5 years and they have failed miserably. Now is the time to try a different strategy.

I don't believe everything fed to me by MSM. You are making that mistake. There are many areas of Iraq where a decent civil society is being built, that never would have been possible under Hussein. Certainly, there have been big improvements in Kurdish and Shia areas.

The Sunnis who face loss of the privileged status they had under Hussein are trying to make the country ungovernable. We cannot, and should not, let them. If that's what they want, partition would be the best. Luckily, the Sunni areas have no oil. Good on them.

[Riverwind]

The Sunnis who face loss of the privileged status they had under Hussein are trying to make the country ungovernable. We cannot, and should not, let them. If that's what they want, partition would be the best. Luckily, the Sunni areas have no oil. Good on them.

Yeah - the formation of another failed state like Afghanistan. It does not really matter is the chaos and mayhem is Iraq is confined to Bagdad or spread across the entire country. The problem is there is choas and mayhem and it is not likely to change as long as US troops are in the country.

[Higgly]

What is your point? Anyone with a desire to smear Christians could come up with a similar selection of historical facts that 'prove' that all Christians are barbarians.

Exackly. Likewise the Brits (well I guess we could describe them as Anglicans!). Anybody remember the Opium Wars and the sacking of the National Library of China? The loss to the world was monumental and all they did was burn a bunch of 'paper'.

...the Confucians, the Taoists, the Animists....

Watch for my thread on Israeli mythinformation. Talk about "viscous conflicts" (sic).

The world needs a steady and penetrating gaze. Enough of gauzy haze and rose coloured glasses.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

You definately have a generalized view about moslem people Borg.

I can't comment on middle east moslems, as I don't know any, but the south-east asian moslems (for the most part) are nothing like what you describe.

[betsy]

Negotiations is not the only option. Besides, negotiation actually means capitulation. Who do you think will scramble to do all what is demanded? It will all be acts of appeasement, a one-sided appeasing.

There is another option though. Brutal but swift.

The west is superior in power. Why wait for the enemy to gain the same power?

Learn from WW2. How US finally decided to end that war.

If eventually you'll have to resort to that kind of tactic anyway...why wait years before doing so? Which only means more lives getting lost?

Should we assume that these anti-western sentiments and sudden onslaught of unrelenting terrorism happen only overnight?

I tend to think that it was years of planning....and implementation. Why do all western nations have home-grown terrorists now? The beast had decided to test its strenght....it's flexing its muscle.

[betsy]

History is full of viscous conflicts where both sides would be able able to point to a long list of wrongs done by the other that justified their attacks. These vicious circles of violence only end when one side has the maturity and strength to choose to not hit back. Western societies are culturally and economically strong. We have the power to choose not to engage in tit for tat violence with Muslims. In the short term such a strategy also appears to be a losing strategy. In the long term it is a winning strategy because we lead by example.

I'm not sure how our maturity, and our cultural and economic strength, will diffuse the situation. It is this very same economic and cultural strength...our way of life....that is like a red flag waving to the bull.

[Riverwind]

I'm not sure how our maturity, and our cultural and economic strenght, will diffuse the situation. It is this very same economic and cultural strenght...our way of life....that is like a red flag waving to the bull.

If you are waving a red flag at a bull you have two choices: 1) step aside and let the bull run past 2) try to kill the bull and risk getting gored. We know from the disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan that trying to kill the bull is next to impossible. It is time to step aside and let the bull run around. Eventually, the bull will get sick of the game.

[betsy]

In the long term it is a winning strategy because we lead by example.

But according to the extremists, the west is the evil incarnate. It is why we should be dealt with...because we lead by example. We corrupt them.

Besides, we are non-believers. And according to extremists all infidels must die.

Of course we can most probably negotiate....that they'll promise to spare us if we all promise to convert to Islam.

[betsy]

I'm not sure how our maturity, and our cultural and economic strenght, will diffuse the situation. It is this very same economic and cultural strenght...our way of life....that is like a red flag waving to the bull.

If you are waving a red flag at a bull you have two choices: 1) step aside and let the bull run past 2) try to kill the bull and risk getting gored. We know from the disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan that trying to kill the bull is next to impossible. It is time to step aside and let the bull run around. Eventually, the bull will get sick of the game.

I don't think choice #1 will work. This is not a stupid bull. We step aside...it won't run past. It will veer in our direction.

Some terrorists had lived in western countries...sacrificed to be among the infidels...in an effort to achieve the ultimate goal. So that shows where side-stepping won't do.

Your choice #2 holds some promise....risk getting gored. It may succeed in goring us....and it may not. So we have 50-50 chance. That's a whole lot better than lying down and hoping for mercy. Mercy may come...or it may not. And if it doesn't come, tough luck....it's hard to get into battle position when you're lying down.

[Riverwind]

But according to the extremists, the west is the evil incarnate. It is why we should be dealt with...because we lead by example. We corrupt them.

The extermists do not speak for all muslims - should we judge the US by the opinions of Pat Robertson? After 9/11 the reaction to the attacks in the Muslim world was mixed and depended on whether the govt was pro-American or anto-American. In Iran there was a great deal of sympathy for the US after the 9/11 attacks - thousands of Iranians marched in the streets to express solidarity with the US - not condemn it. Unfortunately, cowboy Bush and his merry band of paranoids have pissed whatever goodwill existed away. The war monger strategy has failed. The world is a more dangerous place today than it was 5 years ago and the misguided invasion of Iraq is one of the biggest reasons for this. Enough is enough - it is time for another approach.

[betsy]

The extermists do not speak for all muslims

I know. But it is not what they say that is causing us grief.

It is their action.

[Riverwind]

a whole lot better than lying down and hoping for mercy. Mercy may come...or it may not. And if it doesn't come, tough luck....it's hard to get into battle position when you're lying down.

Your entire thinking backwards. The Muslim terrorists are mosquitos - they cannot really hurt us but they can make life unpleasant. We are not lying down asking for mercy - we are ignoring the mosquito because it is irrevelant. If it bites us we lose a little blood but it will not really prevent us from living our lives the way we want.

[Michael Hardner]

Riverwind is doing a great job of deflecting the basic fear-mongering that's happening in this thread, but I'd like to add that I know from personal experience that Muslims do assimilate, and lose their religion the same as the rest of us.

[betsy]

But according to the extremists, the west is the evil incarnate. It is why we should be dealt with...because we lead by example. We corrupt them.

The extermists do not speak for all muslims - should we judge the US by the opinions of Pat Robertson?

What did Pat Robertson say? I am not familiar with this guy. I take it he said something nasty about Muslims? When did he say that?

Did Pat Roberstson blow up anyone?

Expressing one's opinon is not quite the same as actual killing and maiming.

[betsy]

[The Muslim terrorists are mosquitos -

Never underestimate anyone.

Besides, mosquitos will probably still be here after the human race had gone extinct.

Mosquitos are more than just unpleasant.... we fear the sickness they bring.

[Riverwind]

Never underestimate anyone.

What is the worst case scenario? A nuke goes off in Tel Aviv killing a few million? Tehran would be a radioactive dustbowl shortly after. The loss of life would be huge and cause regional disruptions but insignificant compared to the billions of people living in non-Muslim world. Muslims leaders and Mullahs are not that stupid or crazy. When the terrorists took over those planes they could have flown them anywhere. If all they cared about was killing infidels then they would have flown those planes into the nuclear plants in the area. They choose landmarks like the WTC because they cared about the symbolism instead of the death toll. That example alone proves that the motivations of terrorists are much more complex than you want to admit.