Torontonians Ignore High American Culture.....

[killjoy]

Why else would someone start a thread like this which has no other purpose than to crow about Toronto's supposed cultural superiority over those Americans?

Bingo. If the "blue men" - (whatever the hell that is) came from Portugal we wouldn't be reading about it in the paper.

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[Wilber]

Perhaps the thread wasn't so much as "crowing" over Toronto's cultural superiority but rather the banal crap that is foisted upon us......perhaps it is a laurel of the publics independant mindedness versus the mass marketing machine that tells us what is cool......In the last couple of months we have seen the demise of Lord of the Rings (The Musical!) and Blue Man Group..... In the BMG case it comes on the heals of the demolition and rebirth of a theatre rebranded as the Panasonic (slightly ahead of their time) and the lock out of the theatre guilds.

Bull, there was a pointed comparison between Toronto "tastes" and the US. That was the whole point of the thread. If banal crap is being foisted on Canadians it is being done by Canadians, brought to Canadian theaters by Canadians. Where it originated is immaterial.

If you had said, I went to see BMG last night and thought it sucked, I might be interested in knowing why but I see no indication that you have actually seen it or any of the other shows you refer to. If so, what is your opinion of them worth?

QUOTE

Among other things Americans have also brought us jazz, the blues and rock and roll. Is this not also pop culture?

Yes and what does this have to do with anything?

My kids always used to say to me about the latest pop hit, isn't that a great song dad? I'd often tell them that if they are still playing it 30 years from now it is a great song, because I remember that for every tune that is still played from the 50's, 60's and 70's, there were a hundred "hits" that were crap and have never been heard of since. The present generation is no different.

[M.Dancer]

If banal crap is being foisted on Canadians it is being done by Canadians, brought to Canadian theaters by Canadians.

Yeah.....okay....if you say so. I certainly won't ask who brought up the BMG to Toronto.....you must know I'm sure.....

[Wilber]

If banal crap is being foisted on Canadians it is being done by Canadians, brought to Canadian theaters by Canadians.

Yeah.....okay....if you say so. I certainly won't ask who brought up the BMG to Toronto.....you must know I'm sure.....

I don't who owns the Panasonic theater but Panasonic is a Japanese company I believe. Not Canadian but certainly not American. I can't speak for Toronto but most productions that come to Vancouver are brought here by Canadian and often local promoters. Many are American productions, some are successful and some are not.

I didn't start this thread and title it:

Torontonians Ignore High American Culture....., Dontcha wish there was a culture forum, dontcha?

And finish it with:

Apparently, in some parts of the world (south of here) the Blue Man Group is considered high avant garde art. In Toronto, they were considered boring and idiotic.....

[M.Dancer]

I'm sure you claimed that the BMG was brought here by Canadians.....

....never mind. If and when the BMG comes to whereever you're at, go see it.

Perhaps you will enjoy the soiree of high culure.......

[Wilber]

I'm sure you claimed that the BMG was brought here by Canadians.....

....never mind. If and when the BMG comes to whereever you're at, go see it.

Perhaps you will enjoy the soiree of high culure.......

I will if you will.

[killjoy]

And you are trying to argue that in order to not be obsessed we Americans, we have to do everything exactly like them. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Not.

Obviously you're too emotional to discuss this calmly. You purposely ignore the R E A L I T Y of what I'm saying and try and play shell games with what I said. You dally with your personal tv watching habits and you know just how weak that sounds. Your personal tv watching habits are irrelevant in terms of the character of this nation that I am addressing..

I say again:

We don't want to change our immigration because we don't wanna be "like Americans".

We don't want to touch or even fix our health care because of our knee-jerk fear of "turning into Americans".

We destroyed our armed forces because we "don't want to be like Americans".

We live this day-dream of 'peacekeeping' because we don't wanna be like Americans....

Heck we even model our advertising campaigns (Canadian brand beer?) based solely on "not being American" ...apparently "not being American" is more important than buying decient beer.

... our fear irrational fear of "turning American" is a damaging knee-jerk reaction that both plauges this country and stunts our growth, and anyone with an honest bone in their body or who has been in this country for 10+ years and isn't in a coma knows I'm right.

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[Remiel]

Too emotional to discuss this calmly? Why, I would say you are the one who is beginning to get emotional. I don't feel very emotional at all right now.

When people start crying about tightening immigration, they invariably quote how we should harmonize ours with the US, to make them happy, blah blah blah. You're confusing making a choice because of anti-Americanism with deciding that we don't see why we should change immigration because they want us to.

You realize the Americans spend a lot more per capita on health care that covers fewer people too, right? That in the US, people talk about changing their system to be more like ours? Most people who want public health care because its public, not because its anti-American.

How anyone could be stupid enough to want military spending similar to the Americans in beyond me. The people who advocate a stronger military should actually be pointing out countries with capabilities and spending similar to what we want. Do you realize how much money the Americans piss away on the military in bogus contracts?

And wow, a few commercials. I suppose the only reason we call anything Canadian is because of anti-Americanism.

Stunts our growth how? You are aware that our economy is doing pretty well, right? A crap load better than the one south of the border?

Your examples don't even rate as adequate.

[killjoy]

Whatever Remiel. This is what heappens when you know you're right: You don't give a ratz arse if people laugh at you.

I know full well you know exactly what I mean and you transparently and weakly avoid addressing it.. Your examination of Canadian health care purposely misses the point and is entirely irrelevant.. At every juncture, when we decide what we want to do, we look down to the US to make sure we're not doing anything too close to what they're doing. How does this stunt our growth? How? What an incredibly stupid question.

Well for example we destroyed our armed forces because we "didn't want to be like America'. How freakin stupid is that? Does this mean that every nation in the world with an armed force capable of defending it's nation is emulating the US? Of course not. So what's our problem? Stunting growth? Well we had the worlds 4th largest standing army and now we have none. That's called a stunt in your freakin growth dummy. You know this and play dumb.

We NEED to fix our health care system before it crumbles into nothing. We don't have to make it anything at all like the US's system, but our knee-jerk fear of touching it because "it might start to look American" is ludicrous. I suppose we can just keep our heads in the sand until the health care walls of Jeriko fall and we're all screwed. That’s called stunting our growth.

How's about every freakin Liberal attempt to portray the PC or conservative party as "American-like"? They do this because it freakin works. Canadians would rather have a government that steals day and night from them simply because someone teased them into thinking the PC or Conservatives are "American-like". It's pathetic and a stunt in our growth

The fact of the matter is you're being 100% dishonest here. You know full well I'm right or you'd be too stupid to type in the first place.

How anyone could be stupid enough to want military spending similar to the Americans in beyond me.

This would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. I never said anything close "wanting our military spending to be simular to the Americans", but your Canadian preoccupation and knee-jerk fear with all things American decieved you into thinking I did for some reason and completely steered you off course. Thank you for proving my point for me.

Next time try arguing what I'm saying instead of what you wish I was saying.

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[Remiel]

*yawn*

You're going to have to come up with a rebuttal better than that if you think I am going to respond to your rather emotional sounding comments, again.

[killjoy]

I don't need a rebuttal at all - you've already proved my point more solidly and with more eloquence than I probably ever could.

You entire post previous to this one is entirely about Americans and why we should or shouldn’t do something like them. It’s hilarious really to watch you sit there and deny exactly what you’re doing.

I say again:

How anyone could be stupid enough to want military spending similar to the Americans in beyond me.

This would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. I never said anything close "wanting our military spending to be similar to the Americans", but your Canadian preoccupation and knee-jerk fear with all things American deceived you into thinking I did for some reason and completely steered you off course. Thank you for proving my point for me.

You're living, walking, yakking proof of exactly what i'm talking about.

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[geoffrey]

You realize the Americans spend a lot more per capita on health care that covers fewer people too, right? That in the US, people talk about changing their system to be more like ours? Most people who want public health care because its public, not because its anti-American.

Nope, actually the knee jerk reaction is to do what you just did. If we change, we'll be like the Americans, it'll cost more, it won't be public.

Ignorance that the rest of the world has great universal health care programs while we claim our superiority with a crumbling system is the direct cause of all the suffering and pain in our country today due to delays in care. Waiting is unacceptable, forcing those to suffer was found unconstitutional by the SCC. The suffer and death can be solely blamed upon the hand of the 'Friends of Medicare" and their associates.

[Remiel]

If we look at the original context of this argument, about " obsession " with the US, and then examine all of your posts, we'll see that you are at least as obsessed as anyone else. In fact, I would state that you are far more obsessed, because you only seem to be interested in our policy decisions that are affected by country south of the border.

Why do I get pissed off at arguments like this? Because people keep pushing this crap about how we are somehow doing all of this just to avoid some sort of natural state of being like Americans. Do you want to know why people have a hard time thinking of the differences between Canada and the US?

If you think about it a little, there are a tonne of things that are drastically different. But those don't get air time. Because of people like you, who are only concerned with the things that we do differently consciously, and you never mention the things that are just different, so you in fact contribute to the obsession.

If you weren't so obsessed with the Americans, you would be able to see how strong the influence of the Japanese is on electronic entertainment these days. And it will only get stronger. But of course, that doesn't matter to you, you're just worried about the Americans.

But do you know what? There are some good reasons to be obsessed with American politics these days, because they are sliding so far down the craphole that if we don't watch out, we're going to get dragged in with them. If we have some sort of irrational fear of all things American, it is because we don't want their problems. And their problems right now, are legion.

[Remiel]

Or rather, what started this, is a rather cynical interpretation of what one poster said about Americans not seeing themselves in competition with Canadians.

There are two possible interpretations of that:

1. That Americans do not think of there being some struggle.

2. That Americans see Canadians as below them on some sort of universal scale of greatness,and not worthy of struggle.

Since I said cynical interpretation, you can probably imagine which one I based my comment on.

Now, I find myself just generally pissed off because every single argument about our immigration, our military, and our health care system somehow comes back to being an issue with Americans, which I think is overstated. I think there is an issue of saying " because we don't want to be like Americans " because it is the first reason that comes to mind, not because it is the only reason, or the best reason, or the real reason, etc.

It seems every argument framed against the way we do things in Canada is made out as a put down, to put it simply, and that is why I get worked up over it.

In any case, there are other topics here for me to argue bitterly that may have a chance of being resolved. Because here, you are going to keep insisting you're right, and I am sure as hell going to keep insisting I hold the moral high ground, so in all likelihood this argument will never end.

And in case you reply to my last post before I post this, for the record, this is a reply and addendum to my own post.

[Wilber]

I think there is an issue of saying " because we don't want to be like Americans " because it is the first reason that comes to mind, not because it is the only reason, or the best reason, or the real reason, etc.

It is used because it works with a large number of Canadians. As well as appealing to a latent anti American streak, it becomes a convenient excuse for not having to think things through and then act on those conclusions. The problem is that it is used to stop debate, not stimulate it.

When it comes to looking after our own welfare it should not be a reason at all. Americans will do some things better than us and vice versa. Who does what shouldn't matter when it comes to doing what is best.

[killjoy]

It is used because it works with a large number of Canadians. As well as appealing to a latent anti American streak, it becomes a convenient excuse for not having to think things through and then act on those conclusions. The problem is that it is used to stop debate, not stimulate it.

When it comes to looking after our own welfare it should not be a reason at all. Americans will do some things better than us and vice versa. Who does what shouldn't matter when it comes to doing what is best.

Bingo. Wilber's a wise one. You put that better than I could. Thank you.

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[Rue]

Toronto has Blue Man Group feeling ... blue

JAMES ADAMS

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Toronto — New York-based Blue Man Group is shuttering the only Canadian production of its famed stage show less than two years into what it had hoped would be an open-ended extended run.

The show is set to close at Toronto's 700-seat Panasonic Theatre Jan. 7, just 19 months after its official opening there. It's the first time BMG, which started off-Broadway in the late 1980s, has had to cancel a production. Currently shows are running in New York, Las Vegas, Chicago, Boston, London and Berlin. Poor attendance has been given as the reason for the Toronto demise.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto.../Entertainment/

Apparently, in some parts of the world (south of here) the Blue Man Group is considered high avant garde art. In Toronto, they were considered boring and idiotic.....

I think you are reaching and creating a non existent issue as toToronto's perceived tastes. What happened was that this outfit did not want to use union employees and so the school unions boytcotted it meaning its major source of revenue, school trips was cut off.

In regards to Torontonians having different tastes then everyone else, if you want to get all snooty annd think so be my guest but marketing study after marketing study shows we are indistinguishable in consuming habits then any other North American city.

The only unique thing in Toronto is that we apparently had a large ration of our population going out to movies in cinemas (this has changed due to dvds and pay tv obviously) and that we have the most diversified amount of ethnic groups and languages spoken in North America but that does not seem to make us any better then anyone else.

If you want to get snooty, go to Montreal for a weekend, learn what a real bagel and real smoked meat is, then come back and we can talk. True culture would mean appreciating the differene between a puck and a bagel and real smoked meat from dyed pink synthetic meat products. For a city that has supported a losing hockey team for 40 years but still flocks out every year to worship this big Swedish puff pastry on skates, its not a city I would call high-brow. This is HOG Town.

[M.Dancer]

I would have just as happy if Calgary turned their back...happier even, since it's farther away......as to smoked meat....I used to live within walking distance of the fairmount bakery and not far from schwartz's....but I was always willing to have one across the street at the Main if schwartz's was too crowded.

But the snob in me goes to Moishe's......

[killjoy]

2. That Americans see Canadians as below them on some sort of universal scale of greatness,and not worthy of struggle.

That's your projection. Just because they can't find us on a map doesn't mean they think we're below them, it shows they don't think at all about us. Guys like America1 are the exception, but he has an obvious compulsion of some sort. Maybe his dog was run over by someone with canuk license plates I dunno, but if most Americans were asked what they think of Canada they'll get this look on their face like a deer caught in the headlights because they don't have a clue what you're talking about and they'll utter a standard "They seem like nice people" and that'll be it.

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[Higgly]

Just the fact that something as insignificant as the Blue Man Group has taken up this many pages of 'discussion' shows that America1 has hit the nail on the head. Reading this thread has been like trying to watch 'The View'.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Toronto has Blue Man Group feeling ... blue

JAMES ADAMS

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Toronto — New York-based Blue Man Group is shuttering the only Canadian production of its famed stage show less than two years into what it had hoped would be an open-ended extended run.

The show is set to close at Toronto's 700-seat Panasonic Theatre Jan. 7, just 19 months after its official opening there. It's the first time BMG, which started off-Broadway in the late 1980s, has had to cancel a production. Currently shows are running in New York, Las Vegas, Chicago, Boston, London and Berlin. Poor attendance has been given as the reason for the Toronto demise.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto.../Entertainment/

Apparently, in some parts of the world (south of here) the Blue Man Group is considered high avant garde art. In Toronto, they were considered boring and idiotic.....

Your use of the "Blue Man Group" as a cultural barometer provides us more insight into the commentator than the subject matter at hand

[JAh-man]

Sorry but I think the blue men are boaring.. I've met lots of Americans, most I liked, some I didn't..