Stéphane Dion = Jean Chrétien?

[geoffrey]

Did Dion vote to extend the mission to Afghanistan?

No.

Here is the recorded division:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...d=2215122#Div-9

EDIT: It's under Goverment Orders - Afghanistan then scroll down to DIVISON 9

[Ricki Bobbi]

Where is Dion going to pick up seats?

Hmm... no where.

When I lived back in Ontario, at least where I was in the 905, the one thing we resenting is having French Canadians dictate life to us. It's worse out West. Dion is the sterotypical Chretien II. Can't speak a word of English and I say that in comparison to Quebec's criticism of Kennedy's French. Dion will not pick up a seat in Ontario, and that does the Liberals no good.

Being said, the practical candidates are Dion and Kennedy, so it really comes down to whether French or English is the most important language in this country. A party that elects Dion is obviously sending a message to the RoC that Quebec is all that matters to them, and we are back to the screw the west mentality of Trudeau and his group. And that's fine. The Liberals will suffer another couple years in opposition as a consequence of that choice, if they are to make it.

I'm willing to put money on a 4th ballot Kennedy win though. Despite my opinion of most Liberals in this country, I do believe they have the intelligence to elect the only leader there that can win seats.

I would be willing to take that bet. If you get Kennedy on exactly the fourth ballot and I get every other candidate and Kennedy on some other balllot ... certainly. We live in the same city so it is doable. PM me if you are serious.

I think Iggy is dead in the water. Expect to see Iggy and Rae all alone on the third ballot with Rae taking it.

[normanchateau]

Did Dion vote to extend the mission to Afghanistan?

No.

Here is the recorded division:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...d=2215122#Div-9

EDIT: It's under Goverment Orders - Afghanistan then scroll down to DIVISON 9

Thanks for the info.

[geoffrey]

I would be willing to take that bet. If you get Kennedy on exactly the fourth ballot and I get every other candidate and Kennedy on some other balllot ... certainly. We live in the same city so it is doable. PM me if you are serious.

I think Iggy is dead in the water. Expect to see Iggy and Rae all alone on the third ballot with Rae taking it.

Only if my payout is like 1:90 for those ridiculous odds. I'd take a bet on Kennedy on any ballot for serious cash. A 4th ballot Kennedy win based on you picking a candidate and a ballot.

[gerryhatrick]

Dion was a senior Liberal cabinet minister under Chrétien. Dion was a Chrétien protégé. But Dion didn't know about Gagliano, sponsorship and kickbacks? Hein?

It's all very well to engage in slanderous speculation. Will anyone accuse you of hatred, I wonder?

[geoffrey]

Dion was a senior Liberal cabinet minister under Chrétien. Dion was a Chrétien protégé. But Dion didn't know about Gagliano, sponsorship and kickbacks? Hein?

It's all very well to engage in slanderous speculation. Will anyone accuse you of hatred, I wonder?

A perceived ethical issue is fatal in an election. Dion will be hung out to dry on that very concept... on top of not being able to speak English coherently.

Dion is the 'dirtiest' of all candidates running. Being said, personally I doubt if he knew anything, but that's just based on my perception and I have no evidence to back up that claim.

[gerryhatrick]

Dion was a senior Liberal cabinet minister under Chrétien. Dion was a Chrétien protégé. But Dion didn't know about Gagliano, sponsorship and kickbacks? Hein?

It's all very well to engage in slanderous speculation. Will anyone accuse you of hatred, I wonder?

A perceived ethical issue is fatal in an election. Dion will be hung out to dry on that very concept... on top of not being able to speak English coherently.

"A perceived ethical issue", huh? Nevermind that Gomery announced that all cabinet members were free

of blame/responsibility/negligence, let's just paint them all with the same brush.

When it's politically convenient.

[Charles Anthony]

"A perceived ethical issue", huh? Nevermind that Gomery announced that all cabinet members were free of blame/responsibility/negligence, let's just paint them all with the same brush.

What does it matter what Gomery said? Everybody (and I do not mean every member of the Liberal party who will be selecting the party leader) who votes in the next election will not be guided by Gomery.

When it's politically convenient.

Unfortunately, that is politics. Public opinion can not be controlled and people are judged by the company they keep.

Just because O.J.Simpson was cleared of criminal charges does not mean everybody in the whole world is obligated to think he is innocent. If O.J.Simpson or one of his supporters ran for public office, maybe the general public might not trust him, no??

[jbg]

"A perceived ethical issue", huh? Nevermind that Gomery announced that all cabinet members were free

of blame/responsibility/negligence, let's just paint them all with the same brush.

When it's politically convenient.

As a great man once said, "a proof is a proof". He also said "if its proven its a good proof".

[jdobbin]

As a great man once said, "a proof is a proof". He also said "if its proven its a good proof".

A great American said: "As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

Fortunately, that man had to resign.

[jbg]

As a great man once said, "a proof is a proof". He also said "if its proven its a good proof".

A great American said: "As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

Fortunately, that man had to resign.

As did the "great man" in my example; sort of. (you probably can't figure out who it is).

[jdobbin]

As did the "great man" in my example; sort of. (you probably can't figure out who it is).

Napoleon?

[August1991]

Back to the future:

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion will use Jean Chrétien's successful 1993 campaign as a model for the next election, he told party supporters yesterday.

Mr. Chrétien's promise to create "jobs, jobs, jobs" was made when unemployment stood at 11.1 per cent. Mr. Dion's campaign on creating jobs with environmental action, however, is being crafted as the country sits with a jobless rate of 6.3 per cent.

The plan is to increase jobs by encouraging industry to meet the world demand for products and technology to help fight global warming, Mr. Dion said.

"We need to say to Canadians the same as in 1993. We'll give you a strong economy. We just need to add that a strong economy in the 21st century is a sustainable economy," he told more than 200 supporters at a $100-a-plate breakfast fundraiser in Winnipeg.

G & M

1993 as a model? Does that mean I have to go back to using my 20 MB harddrive? And is Dion not aware of the fact that 1993 was the year the Bloc got a majority of seats in Quebec and the Reform in Alberta? In fact, the only reason Chretien won a majority is because of all the vote splits.

And finally, I really like this. A Parisian sociologist is going to run a campaign on economic issues to "fix" Canada's economy.

[jdobbin]

And finally, I really like this. A Parisian sociologist is going to run a campaign on economic issues to "fix" Canada's economy.

As opposed to a Calgarian former president of a secretive lobbyist organization campaigning on "fixing" healthcare and the environment?

[Ricki Bobbi]

1993 as a model? Does that mean I have to go back to using my 20 MB harddrive? And is Dion not aware of the fact that 1993 was the year the Bloc got a majority of seats in Quebec and the Reform in Alberta? In fact, the only reason Chretien won a majority is because of all the vote splits.

And finally, I really like this. A Parisian sociologist is going to run a campaign on economic issues to "fix" Canada's economy.

Hmmm since *scary* *scary* *scary* didn't work in January Dion thinks his best option is to go to the last Lbieral victory that didn't use that winning formula? Hmmmm.....

A campaign on creating green jobs? OK Stephane. If you can actually write a credible plan for that AND understandable messaging power to you. Seems like he has already given up on Alberta.

As opposed to a Calgarian former president of a secretive lobbyist organization campaigning on "fixing" healthcare and the environment?

Looking at the NCC's Web site they seem pretty open to me. Ohh, they didn't feel they should have to disclose people who donate to them, is that why you call them secretive?

[August1991]

Dion was not a Chretien protege. He was brought in with Pettigrew because Chretien was considered a bafoon in Quebec and the Liberals were desperate for some intellectuals to offset Chretien. Dion did not get along with Chretien and held his own with him during cabinet meetings. I wouldn't describe him as his clone at all.

Protege, yes. Clone, no. They're a generation apart. Chretien was born in 1934 and Dion in 1955.

Read this fascinating article by the inimitable, prolific Michel Vastel. It should be translated into English:

«Je vous veux au cabinet», insista malgré tout Jean Chrétien sans se décourager. «Vous vous trompez de personne», répondit Dion en prenant congé. «Mais je connais quelqu'un qui est fait pour ça et qui serait extraordinaire: Pierre Pettigrew... » Voilà comment les libéraux se sont retrouvés avec deux recrues québécoises.

Les hésitations du professeur Dion n'ont pas été faciles à vaincre: une bonne demi-douzaine d'heures d'entretiens privés entre les deux hommes ont été nécessaires. À un moment donné, Stéphane Dion rédigea même à l'intention du premier ministre une longue lettre qui équivalait à un refus. Et les encouragements ne venaient surtout pas de la famille: «Fais pas ça, Stéphane! lui disait-on. Tu as une carrière internationale, tu es sollicité partout, il y a même des éditeurs américains prêts à publier tes livres. Pourquoi abandonnerais-tu tout cela?»

Il finit par accepter l'offre de Jean Chrétien le 6 janvier 1996, mais il y met son prix: un poste prestigieux, comme celui de président du Conseil privé, et une responsabilité précise, les Affaires intergouvernementales. Et il va jusqu'à se payer le luxe d'une «déclaration ministérielle» avant même d'avoir franchi la porte du Conseil des ministres et d'avoir gagné son fauteuil à la Chambre des communes!

L'Actualité 15 avril 1997

[Charles Anthony]

<< In 1996, Jean Chretien wants Stephane Dion in his cabinet.

After a bit of back-and-forth, Stephane Dion accepts Jean Chretien's offer. Despite family nagging, he gives up pursuing an international publishing career.

In return, Stephane Dion wants a high-profile position, like President of the Queen's Privy Council, and to be in charge of Intergovernmental Affairs, even before having a seat in the House of Commons. >>

[Argus]

And finally, I really like this. A Parisian sociologist is going to run a campaign on economic issues to "fix" Canada's economy.

As opposed to a Calgarian former president of a secretive lobbyist organization campaigning on "fixing" healthcare and the environment?

You mean as a opposed to an economist who once headed an organization of citizens which opposed wasteful government spending?

I think the interesting thing about the openness with which Chretien is being welcomed back is that it shows the Liberal party has not the slightest embarrassment or sense of guilt over the massive corruption and unprincipaled incompetence and nepotism for which the Chretien regime was so notorious. Perhaps a strong hint of what kind of a government Dion would run.

[jdobbin]

You mean as a opposed to an economist who once headed an organization of citizens which opposed wasteful government spending?

I think the interesting thing about the openness with which Chretien is being welcomed back is that it shows the Liberal party has not the slightest embarrassment or sense of guilt over the massive corruption and unprincipaled incompetence and nepotism for which the Chretien regime was so notorious. Perhaps a strong hint of what kind of a government Dion would run.

The NCC is more than just against wasteful spending.

As far as unprincipled, the Liberals certainly don't need any lessons from the Harper government who take their advice from Mulroney. Firing the president of the Canadian Wheat Board over the objections of the Board directors ranks right up there.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The NCC is more than just against wasteful spending.

Attack, attack, attack. How about dealing with the alleged *secretiveness* of the NCC first?

[jbg]

As did the "great man" in my example; sort of. (you probably can't figure out who it is).

Napoleon?

Chrétien.

[August1991]

As far as unprincipled, the Liberals certainly don't need any lessons from the Harper government who take their advice from Mulroney. Firing the president of the Canadian Wheat Board over the objections of the Board directors ranks right up there.

Try to divert the discusssion if you want, Dobbin. But a few simple facts remain.

Stephane Dion is the son of a well-known, newspaper column writing, respected, Quebec Claude Ryan federalist, university political science professor. In fact, Stephane did very well studying at the same university in the same department where his father taught. (In Quebec, Dion fils is kind of like Trudeau Jnr.)

Then, Stephane goes off to study soche in Paris. (BTW, his diploma is less impressive than Boisclair's from Harvard and certainly less than Parizeau's at the LSE. Paris VII gives credit for enrollment. Belinda, take note.)

Back in Canada, our man goes to NB (why?) before wisely choosing UdeM rather than Laval. (It was unwise to work in the same department or same university where his old man was a fixture.)

And then, Chretien recruits Dion. Chretien came of political age under Duplessis but Chretien saw what Pearson did and Chretien worked under Trudeau. In 1996, Chretien understood that he needed la relève and an intellectual one at that. He sought a young, university prof but a federalist. Dion fit the bill.

And that brings us to 2006 and Stephane Dion, federal Liberal leader. Maybe Dion has the gumption to be leader. Yeltsin chose Putin and Putin, despite looking like a wimp, turned out to be a tough guy.

Let's see what Dion is capable of. Maybe Chretien chose right.

----

I'm going to add a point. Both Quebec and the US are New World societies - one French, the other English -and language matters in both but in a very different way. Indeed, they use French and English differently than in the Olde Country. Who would confuse The Beatles for The Monkees? Or Robert Charlebois for Michel Sardou?

In Quebec, people who speak International French are respected - Dion speaks well. The accent matters as well as a play on words. A good lâââche - Trudeau did this every so often for fun - or a Duplessis "Laporte ? Qu'il la prenne !".

In the US, language is different - a simple Bush Texan ordinary guy malapropism, however phony, matters most of all - but a good play matters too. Ford was not a Lincoln, Nixon was not a crook and OJ's glove didn't fit. In Hollywood, the bad guys have British accents.

Trudeau, Levesque (franchement), Parizeau and even Chretien ("flag sur le hood") used language far better than Dion has so far. Dion's accent is international but can he play with words.

[jdobbin]

Try to divert the discusssion if you want, Dobbin. But a few simple facts remain.

Stephane Dion is the son of a well-known, newspaper column writing, respected, Quebec Claude Ryan federalist, university political science professor. In fact, Stephane did very well studying at the same university in the same department where his father taught. (In Quebec, Dion fils is kind of like Trudeau Jnr.)

The language you use is unnecessarily inflammatory and diverts from whatever point you're making. Parisian sociologist? He's a Canadian who has received an international education.

You've used words like whiny and such to make your point (from other posts).

You attack his education, his vocation and his family. Simple facts?

[August1991]

You attack his education, his vocation and his family. Simple facts?

Imagine, year 2023, "Willie", the son/daughter of Judy Rebick or Andrew Coyne runs for president of the USA.

As a Canadian, you know that Willie is the son/daughter of Rebick/Coyne and you are astonished that some Americans are fascinated by Willie. Americans know nothing about Rebick/Coyne and care only about Willie.

Sound weird? David Frum is the son of Barbara Frum.

----

Stephane Dion's father has a history in Quebec that English Canadians don't know.

[Charles Anthony]

Stephane Dion's father has a history in Quebec that English Canadians don't know.

It all sounds too unreal.

I dread how it will sound once PolyNoobly catches on.