Which Liberal candidate can defeat Harper?

[gerryhatrick]

The leaderless Liberals are giving him a run for his money....but certainly Rae will beat him by the largest margin.

Contributing to the debate would be to say *something*. But you could stick to your standard *leaderless Liberals* line.

For example, why do you think Rae will beat him by the largest margin?

Yeah, that would take the ability to debate and add something to the board.

Are the Liberals not leaderless at the moment, and running the same as election time?

It is a debate point. d-e-b-a-t-e.

And learn this girl, there's no requirements dictated by your controlling little self here. I can state my opinion that Rae will beat Harper by the largest margin, and that's good enough.

[Ricki Bobbi]

most people are able to admit that the conservatives are doing a decent job but there will always be fears of the social conservative agenda coming out in a majority government.

There's a lot of people on this board who can't admit that. Look at the endless attacks by certain posters....

Fears of the social conservative agenda will recede after time.

Originally the charge was that *any* Conservative government would push the social agenda. Now that we've been in government and haven't pushed the agenda. *Scary* *scary* *scary* has less resonance as time goes on.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Are the Liberals not leaderless at the moment, and running the same as election time?

It is a debate point. d-e-b-a-t-e.

And learn this girl, there's no requirements dictated by your controlling little self here. I can state my opinion that Rae will beat Harper by the largest margin, and that's good enough.

Sure put me in that place with your attack gerry. Is this an attack based on your perception of my manliness or my sexual orientation?

Personal attacks are the playground of the weak-minded...

Your *one and only point* has been responded to many times. But here it is again. A party with the tons of free media associated with a leadership race while the government is in an unpopular armed conflict should be gaining ground.

Back on topic. Rae has the best chance of the leadership hopefuls but whoever wins is in for a tough fight.

[gerryhatrick]

Originally the charge was that *any* Conservative government would push the social agenda.

Now that we've been in government and haven't pushed the agenda. *Scary* *scary* *scary* has less resonance as time goes on.

Oh yeah, you're not employeed by the CPC.

You were pegged your first couple of weeks here...running around accusing every poster critical of Harper of "hate". I wasn't the only one wondering out loud if you were a CPC shill.

And now in freudian fashion you've admitted it.

"Now that WE'VE been in government"? You're in government, huh?

Thx for clearing that up.

[watching&waiting]

Originally the charge was that *any* Conservative government would push the social agenda.

Now that we've been in government and haven't pushed the agenda. *Scary* *scary* *scary* has less resonance as time goes on.

Oh yeah, you're not employeed by the CPC.

You were pegged your first couple of weeks here...running around accusing every poster critical of Harper of "hate". I wasn't the only one wondering out loud if you were a CPC shill.

And now in freudian fashion you've admitted it.

"Now that WE'VE been in government"? You're in government, huh?

Thx for clearing that up.

I thank god for everyday I wake up and read what Gerryhatrick has typed and realise that I am fortunate enough not to in any way ever agree with the posts. When he is confronted like this post, he usuall then ends with "F&*k you or something the like. He never has anything to say that is not tainted by his liberal protracted mind, and mostly I think maybe he suffered a brain injury or something just as truamatic. Opinion like Rae would beat Harper by a large margin are almost comical, but maybe that was what he was trying to do. He will insult and accuse people of all stripes just because he likes being a pain in the but. So sad to have to be him.

[Ricki Bobbi]

I thank god for everyday I wake up and read what Gerryhatrick has typed and realise that I am fortunate enough not to in any way ever agree with the posts. When he is confronted like this post, he usuall then ends with "F&*k you or something the like. He never has anything to say that is not tainted by his liberal protracted mind, and mostly I think maybe he suffered a brain injury or something just as truamatic. Opinion like Rae would beat Harper by a large margin are almost comical, but maybe that was what he was trying to do. He will insult and accuse people of all stripes just because he likes being a pain in the but. So sad to have to be him.

Thanks for that. Couldn't have said it better myself.

No I am not employed by the Conservative Party of Canada. Yes I have volunteered for them in the past. Yes I am a party member. Yes I will volunteer during the next election, when we crush the Bob Rae lead Liberals...

[jbg]

No I am not employed by the Conservative Party of Canada. Yes I have volunteered for them in the past. Yes I am a party member. Yes I will volunteer during the next election, when we crush the Bob Rae lead Liberals...

There are some posters here who dislike Harper so much I'm sure they'd resonate with the electorate. In triplicate.

[gerryhatrick]

Originally the charge was that *any* Conservative government would push the social agenda.

Now that we've been in government and haven't pushed the agenda. *Scary* *scary* *scary* has less resonance as time goes on.

Oh yeah, you're not employeed by the CPC.

You were pegged your first couple of weeks here...running around accusing every poster critical of Harper of "hate". I wasn't the only one wondering out loud if you were a CPC shill.

And now in freudian fashion you've admitted it.

"Now that WE'VE been in government"? You're in government, huh?

Thx for clearing that up.

I thank god for everyday I wake up and read what Gerryhatrick has typed and realise that I am fortunate enough not to in any way ever agree with the posts. When he is confronted like this post, he usuall then ends with "F&*k you or something the like. He never has anything to say that is not tainted by his liberal protracted mind, and mostly I think maybe he suffered a brain injury or something just as truamatic. Opinion like Rae would beat Harper by a large margin are almost comical, but maybe that was what he was trying to do. He will insult and accuse people of all stripes just because he likes being a pain in the but. So sad to have to be him.

The post wasn't a confrontation to me. What are you blabbering about?

[gerryhatrick]

I thank god for everyday I wake up and read what Gerryhatrick has typed and realise that I am fortunate enough not to in any way ever agree with the posts. When he is confronted like this post, he usuall then ends with "F&*k you or something the like. He never has anything to say that is not tainted by his liberal protracted mind, and mostly I think maybe he suffered a brain injury or something just as truamatic. Opinion like Rae would beat Harper by a large margin are almost comical, but maybe that was what he was trying to do. He will insult and accuse people of all stripes just because he likes being a pain in the but. So sad to have to be him.

Thanks for that. Couldn't have said it better myself.

No I am not employed by the Conservative Party of Canada. Yes I have volunteered for them in the past. Yes I am a party member. Yes I will volunteer during the next election, when we crush the Bob Rae lead Liberals...

Thought you were a party shill. And I was right.

W&W's post, that you are so grateful for, is clearly the work of a disturbed mind.

I have told a couple of folks where to park it, but the claim that I "usuall then ends with f&*K you" is obviously a lie.

Beyond that it is ad hom attack. And you say "thanks for that", which speaks to yourself.

[geoffrey]

Is it still possible for McKenna rto run?

Because if he did, he would win the leadership easily and likely defeat Harper..

I'm pretty sure he can no longer join the race. Your right though, I think McKenna would likely win if he did join in. He has accepted a plush exec job at TD Bank though, unlikely to leave that for the scrapyard of politics.

Of course, he is heavily involved in the Carlyle group. If Harper is in Bush's pocket, McKenna is down his pants. What would the Liberals fear monger about if their leading man is closer to the yanks then the conservative player?

What a turning of tables that would be, no? The biggest turning of tables would be that I'd consider voting Liberal with McKenna at the helm.

From Wiki:

His key priority throughout his term was job creation and he was known to say that the "best social program we have is a job." He encouraged small business growth and tried to entice large companies to invest in the province with tax incentives, often directly calling individual professionals to urge them to bring their talents to New Brunswick. Another of his strategies was to raise the collective self confidence of New Brunswickers, which he believed would increase productivity.

Yay a fiscal neo-liberal to the max. My kind of leader.

[bradco]

most people are able to admit that the conservatives are doing a decent job but there will always be fears of the social conservative agenda coming out in a majority government.

There's a lot of people on this board who can't admit that. Look at the endless attacks by certain posters....

Fears of the social conservative agenda will recede after time.

Originally the charge was that *any* Conservative government would push the social agenda. Now that we've been in government and haven't pushed the agenda. *Scary* *scary* *scary* has less resonance as time goes on.

the only thing that will recede true small l liberals fears is a conservative majority government that doesnt push their social agenda and try to put us on par with some other backwards nations

[rover1]

Rae's Ontario failures will be remembered, but he is a very good speaker, and could have a chance if he gives the impression that he is more sincerely 'Canadian' than Harper is. There is a considerable amount or resentment in NDP circles regarding his change of party, and not just in Ontario.

In my view, he would gain less of the left wing vote, than any of the others, which could make him lose.

On the balance of probabilities, I would guess that Ignatieff has the best chance, but I am not strong in my opinion.

[Hicksey]

Rae's Ontario failures will be remembered, but he is a very good speaker, and could have a chance if he gives the impression that he is more sincerely 'Canadian' than Harper is. There is a considerable amount or resentment in NDP circles regarding his change of party, and not just in Ontario.

In my view, he would gain less of the left wing vote, than any of the others, which could make him lose.

On the balance of probabilities, I would guess that Ignatieff has the best chance, but I am not strong in my opinion.

How exactly is one Canadian more Canadian than another?

And how does that relate to Harper and Rae?

[Ricki Bobbi]

the only thing that will recede true small l liberals fears is a conservative majority government that doesnt push their social agenda and try to put us on par with some other backwards nations

So we'll never get a CPC majority because of fears of the social agenda.

Fears of the social agenda won't go away until after a CPC majority.

Seems like a catch-22 that *conveniently* plays into the hands of the Liberals.

[watching&waiting]

The liberals knew from the day they lost that the party needed to be rebuild from the foundations back to the top, and it was pretty much a given that this will take time and that there would not be much chance of there being a successful leader for quite some time. That is why we have the shameful group of present leadership candidates. The back room politics are such that people who knew thay did not have a chance saw this as time to build alliances and ties to those they thought would have a chance by throwing support to these and then in hopes of later favours or positions etc. To me this is still the mark of the old Chretien system and yes it still has too many from that time.

While many of the sure bets to have won the leadership have seen it wise to sit this one out, it says a lot about just how fragmented the party really is. As much as the last election showed that some liberal areas were true to their cause, it probably will not hold thru for another shot in an election. The NDP have pretty much made the biggest mistakes as of late with their positions and yes while the polls say that everything is pretty much the same as that of the last election, I think that is if a election were waged today, the polls would give Harper the needed votes for a majority. That is why I believe the high profile liberals that we would have thought would run for leader, have decided to sit this out and get the veils of corruption to be gone before they run for leadership.

So to me that explains a lot of things. Could I be wrong? Maybe, but what other reason do you think explains the fact that the high profile people are not even trying to become party leader, if the prospects were at all bright?

[August1991]

There are some posters here who dislike Harper so much I'm sure they'd resonate with the electorate. In triplicate.

And that's the question.

Which Liberal candidate can beat Harper? (I liked a CBC voice who asked which candidate would "lead Canada".)

There are only three possibilities: Ignatieff, Dion, Rae.

Which of these three will get the Liberals back into power? That's what Liberal Party members are seeking, and what Liberal Party convention delegates will vote for. Party members, delegates, Jason Cherniak, they have no principles except the principle of compromise to get power and be Number One.

Take Stephane Dion. Is it principle? No, his supporters think he can defeat Harper and win. Such is the Liberal Party.

Someone should question Dion and the sponsorship scandal. Unlike Rae and Ignatieff, Dion was around - in Quebec. Dion can't claim ignorance. A vote for Dion is a vote for the Chretien Liberals.

[Charles Anthony]

Personally, I think the Liberals are doing better with Bill Graham than they could with either of the three stooges.

I am serious.

[geoffrey]

Personally, I think the Liberals are doing better with Bill Graham than they could with either of the three stooges.

I am serious.

Bill Graham has too much baggage to be a serious leader long-term. Can anyone say Lawrence Metherel?

I don't think Canada would be a credible nation with a person accused of being a pedophile (and never having denied it) in the PM seat. Graham should make a statement on the claim at least, he hasn't, I don't think he could ever actually lead the party and be morally justified in doing so.

Missile defense, Afghanistan and pro-Americanism, Graham is on Harper's side, much like Ignatieff.

[jdobbin]

Bill Graham has too much baggage to be a serious leader long-term. Can anyone say Lawrence Metherel?

I don't think Canada would be a credible nation with a person accused of being a pedophile (and never having denied it) in the PM seat. Graham should make a statement on the claim at least, he hasn't, I don't think he could ever actually lead the party and be morally justified in doing so.

Missile defense, Afghanistan and pro-Americanism, Graham is on Harper's side, much like Ignatieff.

Is there any credible source for this information aside from a gay magazine that didn't get confirmation from other sources before taking as fact the statements made by the accuser? Why isn't Harper making an arrest? Pedophillia is a crime. Why isn't the Sun newspaper chain reporting it?

Why should Graham reply? Is he being asked in Parliament? By the media? By the police? By the Justice department?

Why give any credence to a smear campaign? And why does someone have to clear their name when people just whisper in the shadows and believe in the UFOs and the grassy knoll anyways.

[jdobbin]

Someone should question Dion and the sponsorship scandal. Unlike Rae and Ignatieff, Dion was around - in Quebec. Dion can't claim ignorance. A vote for Dion is a vote for the Chretien Liberals.

Just like a vote for Harper was a vote for Mulroney since he was in the backrooms helping the Conservatives in the election? Surely Harper remembered with distaste his time in Ottawa with Mulroney.

[geoffrey]

Someone should question Dion and the sponsorship scandal. Unlike Rae and Ignatieff, Dion was around - in Quebec. Dion can't claim ignorance. A vote for Dion is a vote for the Chretien Liberals.

Just like a vote for Harper was a vote for Mulroney since he was in the backrooms helping the Conservatives in the election? Surely Harper remembered with distaste his time in Ottawa with Mulroney.

I'd vote for Mulroney, not really likely I'd vote for fraud.

[jdobbin]

I'd vote for Mulroney, not really likely I'd vote for fraud.

Mulroney's fraud?

"Mulroney accepted $300,000 in cash from Karlheinz Schreiber, a German-Canadian businessman. The cash changed hands in three meetings in hotels over an 18 month period, beginning in 1993. Schreiber had at his disposal $20 million from Airbus for the payment of secret commissions. CBC television reported on February 8, 2006 that the money Schreiber paid to Mulroney originated in a Swiss bank account code-named "Frankfurt" which Schreiber also used to pay the secret Airbus commissions. $500,000 was transferred from "Frankfurt" to an account in Zurich code-named "BRITAN" on July 26, 1993, from which withdrawals totalling $300,000 were made in 1993-4. But there is no evidence that Mulroney was aware of the source of the funds. Nor is there any evidence that Mulroney accepted bribes in the Airbus affair."

Source - Wikipedia. CBC.

[August1991]

Toronto MP Michael Ignatieff is the Liberal leadership candidate the Conservatives would fear fighting the most in the next federal election. And, of the top contenders, the Tories would most like to take on former NDP premier Bob Rae.

The conclusions are contained in a confidential memo obtained by the Toronto Star, and written by Conservative national campaign chief Doug Finley.

Toronto Star

The Tories are running such a tight shop that I somehow doubt this memo is legitimate. Or maybe the leak was deliberate.

OTOH, the assessments are reasonable. Dion would do better in Quebec than some say, but he'd do worse in ROC. He's boring and his English is not that good. The memo notes also the remarkable way that Dion has avoided the sponsorship scandal. Kennedy is a non-starter. Rae's support is thin. On policy matters, Ignatieff would put up the best fight to the Tories.

I liked this quote about Dion:

"This guy makes Harper look exciting."

[Shakeyhands]

The Tories are running such a tight shop that I somehow doubt this memo is legitimate. Or maybe the leak was deliberate.

Agreed. I have to think they'd rather face Iggy... I think there is more recent stuff to pick at, I think once Rae has won the leadership (there's my predicition) and he gets more press time people will see that he isn't the same person he was 10 years ago in Ontario and he'll become a much greater force.

[August1991]

There's a really good book about Canadian politics coming out this Halloween, and one of the points it will make is that when Doug Finley writes something down, his goal is to have it leaked. When he actually means something, he does it on the phone or face to face.

Paul Wells

So, what's the Tory game plan? (This is like the Sicilian Defense.)

Wells' game plan is easier to figure. It's his book that will trick or treat.