Afghanistan

[killjoy]

jdobbin

The Americans after they removed the Taliban eliminated the the Department of Vice and Virtue law as it stood.

I cannot defend what the media or the US state department feels they need to do in order to trump up the importance of that event, which really was simply a foregone conclusion with invasion.

There has been alarm in NATO that the re-instated law could be used by the Taliban to strike fear again in the public. Certainly the persecution of religious converts with the threat of the death penalty doesn't garner much support from NATO quarters.

I don't know if I've heard of any "alarm" in NATO about this, (I could be wrong), but suffice to say your scenario is as likely as elements in the Taliban or aligned with the right war/drug lords or subvertly inserted into the police force or the ANA or a dozen other organizations could offer the same threat. I don't believe it's prudent to believe just because Afghanistan will implement Shia law like everyone knew they would, that this development is going to lead directly to the same crap the Taliban was trying to enforce. After all 1/3 of the cabinet are women...although I believe Karzai should've appointed his electoral opponents, the Tajik leader (forget his name at the moment) and Dostrum. But they are not without their say or influence either.

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[jdobbin]

I cannot defend what the media or the US state department feels they need to do in order to trump up the importance of that event, which really was simply a foregone conclusion with invasion.

I don't know if I've heard of any "alarm" in NATO about this, (I could be wrong), but suffice to say your scenario is as likely as elements in the Taliban or aligned with the right war/drug lords or subvertly inserted into the police force or the ANA or a dozen other organizations could offer the same threat. I don't believe it's prudent to believe just because Afghanistan will implement Shia law like everyone knew they would, that this development is going to lead directly to the same crap the Taliban was trying to enforce. After all 1/3 of the cabinet are women...although I believe Karzai should've appointed his electoral opponents, the Tajik leader (forget his name at the moment) and Dostrum. But they are not without their say or influence either.

The re-instatement of the law was widely debated in various European parliaments and in the U.S. Certainly the convert who was about to face death raised the level of concern.

There has not been much discussion in Canada on the subject.

It remains to be seen if the law will be used to drive women out of areas that they are now involved in such as politics.

[killjoy]

Can't argue with that. Or at least not over anything beyond trivial symantics. I'd rather make common ground.

If you don't mind a personal observation, you're travelling at the proper 'speed limit' for rational objective thought, imo. Speed kills that. I can respect that about you.

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[jdobbin]

Can't argue with that. Or at least not over anything beyond trivial symantics. I'd rather make common ground.

If you don't mind a personal observation, you're travelling at the proper 'speed limit' for rational objective thought, imo. Speed kills that. I can respect that about you.

I have no problems with your observations on what is happening in Afghanistan. My fear is that Karzai might not have the strength to quell the more religious partners in his government from reversing some of the factors that make NATO's presence worthwhile.

I also fear that Harper is already talking beyond 2009 as he was doing today at the rally. An unlimited timeline possibly strains Canada's military beyond the capabilties of even being present for a crisis in Canada. I don't even think we can talk about helping militarily in any other unforseen world crisis.

Even the U.S. is feeling stretched to the limit.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14958938/

Lastly, as demonstrated in the press conference today in the U.S., Pakistan remains an obstacle to long lasting peace in the region.

[killjoy]

My fear is that Karzai might not have the strength to quell the more religious partners in his government from reversing some of the factors that make NATO's presence worthwhile.

A reasonable concern imo.

I also fear that Harper is already talking beyond 2009

Look, Harper's a goof, and I voted for him even. I don't regret voting for him but I voted with eyes open knowing he was a goof all the while. That doesn’t mean I pay credence to what he says. Simply put if there are no serious signs of advancement in the situation in Afghanistan by 2009 I will be the first in line to be demanding that we get out. That's not to say I think it'll be over and 'won' by 2009, but if Afghanistan can't stand on its own without military backing by then (they'll probably still need money) and there's no real positive signs of development then it'll be lost.

My point is regardless of what Harper does or says now, there's nothing he can do to take the option of getting out in 2009, if it is still 'sucking', off the table. Harpers a small dog on an even smaller leash.

Lastly, as demonstrated in the press conference today in the U.S., Pakistan remains an obstacle to long lasting peace in the region.

Again, a reasonable concern. The deal they (Pakistan prez) just made with their native Taliban is worth watching and waiting a bit. If they are true to their word it may make a substantial difference.

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[Durgan]

Hudood Ordinance is simply punishments for sex, alcohol and theft in many Mulim countries. Sort of the Law of the Land.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about. And you aren't even willing to spend 30 seconds to learn.

No it is NOT "simply punishments for sex and alcohol in many Muslim countries". You are mixing that up with Shia law .

Bla Bla Bla. Anybody can copy and paste. I reduced the Hoodoo Law to its essentials fpr the peasants could understand. Most cannot read more than one sentence due to a short attention span. I repeat: Hudood Ordinance is simply punishments for sex, alcohol and theft in many Muslim countries. Not only Pakistan, the most democratic of all Muslim countires other than Saudia Arabia-both allies of the US.

Muslims have more hangups about sex than even Western countires. That is probably why they have so much energy for violence agasint the helpless and weak. All that testosterone floating around in the body probably has to be disapated someplace. Apparently there or no homosexuals in Muslim countries, because it is forbidden by the Koran, similar to blasphemy against Allah. As per most crimes stoning to death is the prefered method of punishment, but hanging is also practiced, probably copied from the British.

This is the kind of society that are troops are dying to make secure. Democracy at its best.

Killjoy, is there anything else you would like to know?

Durgan.

[Higgly]

Muslims have more hangups about sex than even Western countires.

So in a perfect world everybody would have the same attitude towards sex as you do?

My concern about Afghanistan is that the Afghanis themselves lack the fundamental educational basis upon which strong democracies are built. Not to say they can't attain that, but what might have been there has been destroyed. This is going to be a long, long, long haul. We're not talking about rebuilding just infrastructure and institutions, but reshaping an entire people. I was disappointed none of the press threw this out at Karzai, because it would be interesting to hear what he would have to say on the issue.

I see Pakistan is now being made out to be the bad guy. This should get interesting.

Finally, I think it is important to point out that the Taliban were not the terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center. That was Al Quaida. The Taliban let Al Quaida hide out in Afghanistan, but are not known to have conducted terrorist operations outside of Afghanistan. Are references to the Taliban as terrorists justified? Maybe if you were a Russian soldier once upon a time...

[jdobbin]

There is a report out there right now that bin Laden is dead.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/23092006/6/n-wo...eport-leak.html

I'm not sure how it would effect insurgencies or terrorism in the world. Al Qaeda seems to have developed a whole new series of leaders every time one of their people is killed or captured.

[Durgan]

Muslims have more hangups about sex than even Western countires.

So in a perfect world everybody would have the same attitude towards sex as you do?

Certainly a jump on cogntive thinking! One of our Prime Ministers said something like this, A nation has no business looking in the bedrooms of its people. I will let you sort that out with some cognitive logical thinking.

How do you and Harper reshape a backwards, half illiterate, Muslim country of 30 million people? We spend about 1000 billion in Canada each year in all taxes, and many don't think Canada has addressed many social problems. I suggest the propaganda is not even beginning to address reality. Most of the babbble is totally unrealistic. I suggest the people of Afghanistn don't want to be made into the image of the USA.

Durgan

[Higgly]

Certainly a jump on cogntive thinking!

Well all right then. Just what did you mean?

And why do you have to put everything in a bigger font than everyone else? Are you having trouble with your eyesight?

[Topaz]

SUPPORT the TROOPS, NOT the government! Peacekeeping is what we are know for but things have changed in Afghanistan,and even though the Libs. put the military there, this is the Harper govt doing and no matter what they say, its on their heads and not the Libs! So if we ended up like the US in Iraq, with heavy debt and heavy deaths, its they who will pay for it at election time!

[Durgan]

Certainly a jump on cogntive thinking!

Well all right then. Just what did you mean?

And why do you have to put everything in a bigger font than everyone else? Are you having trouble with your eyesight?

Shiah Law or Hoodoo Law is the same bullshit, why separate them. Actually they have the same practices in Haiti, but it is harmless except for the participients.

Yep to you second question.

Durgan

[Argus]

SUPPORT the TROOPS, NOT the government! Peacekeeping is what we are know for but things have changed in Afghanistan,and even though the Libs. put the military there, this is the Harper govt doing and no matter what they say, its on their heads and not the Libs!

I'm sorry but I'm finding it kind of hard to identify any logic in this bizarre statement.

In what way have things changed? I realize that to those who haven't bothered to keep themselves informed it might appear like a sudden, huge resurgence of the Taliban. However, what has actually happened is that the West, notobably Canada, the UK and the US, have put more troops into Afghanistan and sent them south to the area they had long abandoned. This, of course, has brought about intense fighting with the Taliban there, but this was known, anticipated. It is why we went there.

Second, you admit that the Libs sent them there, and then go on to say that it's Harper's doing. It's hard to reconcile this. Harper has not changed one single thing about the mission to date, other than to extend it. If Martin had been re-elected, absolutely NOTHING would have changed about our mission in Afghanistan other than that the federal Liberals would be trumpeting it as a matter of national honour and defending it with the self-righteous unanimity they're so noted for.

I'd appreciate it if you could make an effort to clear up the logical inconsistencies and inaccuracies in your opinion.

[Argus]

Certainly a jump on cogntive thinking!

Well all right then. Just what did you mean?

And why do you have to put everything in a bigger font than everyone else? Are you having trouble with your eyesight?

Shiah Law or Hoodoo Law is the same bullshit, why separate them. Actually they have the same practices in Haiti, but it is harmless except for the participients.

Yep to you second question.

Durgan

The thing to do about poor eyesight is to set your browser to its largest text size. Netscape is particularly good for this.

[Argus]

People try and make a big deal about them choosing to base their laws on Shia law. So what? Every land in the region does that from Pakistan to Arabia. They each have their own version. This is NOT the same as the Taliban version of the Hudood Ordinance from Pakistan influence that is harsher than the Afghans ever wanted. Go look up Hudood Ordinance, o'bringer of truth.

They are not the same. Again you read a few words in a paper and expect to grasp a region history and all the nebulous factors of their society from a couple of paragraphs and use the typical, "That sounds about right to me" fallacy of logic.

The Americans after they removed the Taliban eliminated the the Department of Vice and Virtue law as it stood. There has been alarm in NATO that the re-instated law could be used by the Taliban to strike fear again in the public. Certainly the persecution of religious converts with the threat of the death penalty doesn't garner much support from NATO quarters.

Logically, the only reason Karzai would have reinstated such a department, however mild compared to its predecessors, was to appeal to more conservative religious elements, including the Taliban - which is exactly what Layton has been calling for.

[jdobbin]

Logically, the only reason Karzai would have reinstated such a department, however mild compared to its predecessors, was to appeal to more conservative religious elements, including the Taliban - which is exactly what Layton has been calling for.

It is hard to say how much like the old law the law will be.

And Layton is all over the map about what he wants.

[Argus]

I reduced the Hoodoo Law to its essentials fpr the peasants could understand. Most cannot read more than one sentence due to a short attention span.

Perhaps you are judging "the peasants" by the fact they won't read more than one sentence FROM YOU.

You might consider the possibility they have evaluated the quality of though and fact which goes into your posts and have decided it isn't worth wasting a whole lot of time on.

[Argus]

My concern about Afghanistan is that the Afghanis themselves lack the fundamental educational basis upon which strong democracies are built.

True. They need education, but just as much they need to discover the art of compromise and negotiaton. Democracy does not and can not work without the willingess to compromise and accept the different viewpoints and and priorities of the many elements which make up a community. If you regard all your own wants as absolute and are unwilling to compromise on them so that your neighbour gets some of what he wants then there can be only violence and strife.

That being said, you can't educate kids when a group keeps blowing up schools.

I see Pakistan is now being made out to be the bad guy. This should get interesting.

Pakistan is partly the bad guy. The real bad guy remains the Saud family. Pakistan was simply the most vulnerable to the money Saudi Arabia pumped out into those madrassas schools. It had a very high illiteracy rate, and extreme poverty. Many of the people the Sauds found to run those schools were fanatics, even by the standards of the Wahabi, and those graduates went on to found more such schools (it's not like they had the education to do anything else) so that the madrassas system grew and blossomed and churned out hundreds of thousands of religious fanatics. Those fanatics helped destabilize Afghanistan - and were the backbone of the Taliban, and they are destabilizing Pakistan, as well.

IMHO, the smart thing (if cold blooded) for the yanks to have done was make peace with Saddam, and let him take out Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

[Rovik]

Second, you admit that the Libs sent them there, and then go on to say that it's Harper's doing. It's hard to reconcile this. Harper has not changed one single thing about the mission to date, other than to extend it. If Martin had been re-elected, absolutely NOTHING would have changed about our mission in Afghanistan other than that the federal Liberals would be trumpeting it as a matter of national honour and defending it with the self-righteous unanimity they're so noted for.

As much as it pains me (lol), Argus is absolutely right. The Liberals are being hypocritical to criticize the Conservatives since as Argus mentions, the changes in the Afghan mission (to a more offensive role) was given the go-ahead under the Liberal rule.

The Liberals also had a part to play in the Conservatives extension of the mission when many of them voted with the Conservatives in passing the extension through the Commons. If all the Liberals voted against the motion, it wouldn't have passed.

[Higgly]

If you regard all your own wants as absolute and are unwilling to compromise on them so that your neighbour gets some of what he wants then there can be only violence and strife.

IMHO, the smart thing (if cold blooded) for the yanks to have done was make peace with Saddam, and let him take out Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

Do you not see a contradiction here?

[Higgly]

Shiah Law or Hoodoo Law is the same bullshit, why separate them. Actually they have the same practices in Haiti, but it is harmless except for the participients.

OK. So I think you are talking about Voodoo. Actually Voodoo is based in ritual and the interpretation of spirits. It descends from the animistic religions of Africa. The Moslem religion is based on principle and thought and descends from the monotheistic religions of the Middle East.

[Argus]

If you regard all your own wants as absolute and are unwilling to compromise on them so that your neighbour gets some of what he wants then there can be only violence and strife.

IMHO, the smart thing (if cold blooded) for the yanks to have done was make peace with Saddam, and let him take out Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

Do you not see a contradiction here?

In the first, I'm speaking about the need, in a democracy, for compromise.

But the world is not a democracy of any kind. It's a free-for-all filled with violent, corrupt, illegitimate leaders and backward, medieval goat-herders, none of whom recognize anything but force.

The Sauds know what they're doing. I don't think it would surprise anyone that the US and other western powers have made their displeasure at Saudi funding for religious extremism known. The Saudis continue to fund religious extremism. And that extremism is the basis for most Muslim terrorism and the increasing radicalism in the Muslim world.

If Sadaam were a US tool, and he could be relied on to safeguard and continue oil shipments, then there really isn't any reason why the US shouldn't have allowed him to conquer the gulf, esp the Sauds. It's not like this would unleash a reign of terror on the people, for there is no freedom there to begin with, and torture is commonplace in Saudi prisons anyway.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Higgly,

Do you not see a contradiction here?

I don't think Argus was contradicting himself, but rather offering up the two extremes of what could be done. I disagree with him, though, that it would have been a good idea (or possible) to let Saddam do the dirty work. From a cold-blooded pragmatic viewpoint, it should have been up to the US to depopulate the ME.

Argus,

They need education, but just as much they need to discover the art of compromise and negotiaton. Democracy does not and can not work without the willingess to compromise and accept the different viewpoints and and priorities of the many elements which make up a community. If you regard all your own wants as absolute and are unwilling to compromise on them so that your neighbour gets some of what he wants then there can be only violence and strife.

I don't know if you read my previous reply to killjoy, but I am in agreement here, with the following caveat. This is the battle that must be fought, and why I claimed that our soldiers (and NATO) in Afghanistan are 'doing the right thing the wrong way'.

While killjpoy may have legitimate concerns about Kaplan's apparent bias, Kaplan did spend a lot of time with the Pathans, and it became evident to him that 'compromise and negotiation' are not in the national psyche.

I saw an excerpt from the interview of Karzai with Peter Mansbridge last night, and I also wish that karzai had been asked about this. Karzai came across as a very good diplomat, but it was almost as though I expected him at anytime to pass around his fuzzy little hat.

[Durgan]

[quote name='Higgly' date='Sep 23 2006, 12:41 PM'

OK. So I think you are talking about Voodoo. Actually Voodoo is based in ritual and the interpretation of spirits. It descends from the animistic religions of Africa. The Moslem religion is based on principle and thought and descends from the monotheistic religions of the Middle East.

No, I was talking about the Hudood bit, but feel it is about a non-sensical as Hoodoo, so chose the Hoodoo bit intentionally. Any law based on religion that has consequences as severe at the Hudood Ordinance should be ridiculed. That was my intent, but you missed it. So this is the clarification. This is the 21st century and it is time to move on and remove some of the misery in trhe world, often casued by religion.

Durgan.

Our New Prime Minister

Durgan

[Durgan]

[quote name='Argus' date='Sep 23 2006,

In the first, I'm speaking about the need, in a democracy, for compromise.

But the world is not a democracy of any kind. It's a free-for-all filled with violent, corrupt, illegitimate leaders and backward, medieval goat-herders, none of whom recognize anything but force.

The Sauds know what they're doing. I don't think it would surprise anyone that the US and other western powers have made their displeasure at Saudi funding for religious extremism known. The Saudis continue to fund religious extremism. And that extremism is the basis for most Muslim terrorism and the increasing radicalism in the Muslim world.

If Sadaam were a US tool, and he could be relied on to safeguard and continue oil shipments, then there really isn't any reason why the US shouldn't have allowed him to conquer the gulf, esp the Sauds. It's not like this would unleash a reign of terror on the people, for there is no freedom there to begin with, and torture is commonplace in Saudi prisons anyway.

Niccolò di Bernado dei Machiavelli at his best. He couldn't have written it better. I suggest during the cold war the essence of the practice mentioned was used particularly in South Amrica. CIA sponsored dictators to achieve stability. I suggest the result is more misery, of which South America is slowly coming out of.

The third world is awakening and going through growing pains, not unlike Britain's effort to achieve the level of Democracy they have today. It took 1000 years, and is an ongoing process.

Rather than work on Afghanistan, we could be closer to home in South America. Afghanistan is no threat to Canada of which I am aware. The root of terrorism is the financing and arms. Trace the money to the source and you will find the true terorists. The Taliban at best are foot soldiers, not unlike our own troops in the area.

Durgan.