PQ's Plans to Achieve Sovereignty

[August1991]

We have discussed this elsewhere but we should have a thread for it here.

Pendant que Jean Charest tire au poignet avec Stephen Harper sur la table du déséquilibre fiscal, le Parti québécois s'attaque à la définition de son projet de pays. Pour donner suite au «programme de pays» adopté l'an dernier, un comité spécial du PQ se penchera sur le canevas constitutionnel d'un Québec indépendant et républicain, à Montréal, aujourd'hui.

Mine de rien, André Boisclair avance ses pions sur l'échiquier politique et «prépare un projet de constitution initiale pour le Québec» comme le voulaient ses militants.

Canoe

Boisclair seems to be taking a leaf from Parizeau's playbook. If the PQ forms the next government, Boisclair will form a Constituent Assembly composed of the 75 federal MPs, 125 members of the National Assembly and 200 other deputies elected by PR in Quebec. These 400 will then finalize and approve a new constitution for an independant Quebec based on a proposal the PQ is now preparing.

At present, the idea is to have a republic modeled on the American system with an executive president and a bicameral legislature - the current National Assembly and another chamber with 75 members representing the regions.

Once the Constituent Assembly passes the new Constitution, it would presumably be submitted to the population by referendum.

It seems clear to me that this PQ strategy will be an issue in the next provincial election. Under the circumstances, it is hard to imagine the election becoming anything but a referendum on the PQ's project for sovereignty.

[Charles Anthony]

Until the popular numbers are in their favor, it makes sense for the separatists to do as much constitutional preparation ahead of time. I encourage them. It gives federalist politicians and complacent Quebeckers less opportunity to say: "Oh, but if we separate, what will we do?" as they shrug their shoulders and retire back to the devil they know which is federalism.

Furthermore, maybe it will encourage people in other provinces to start thinking the same.

[geoffrey]

Charles,

Stephen Harper has already encouraged us to do the same in Alberta.

From my signature, originaly from the National Post:

"It is time to look at Quebec and to learn. What Albertans should take from this example is to become "maitres chez nous."" - Stephen Harper, National Post (December 8/00)

I couldn't agree more. Quebec gets what it wants because the threat of the PQ winning an election isn't so remote. If other provinces, mine included, want a fair deal, then we need to do the same. I don't understand why others haven't followed down this path.

[Remiel]

Does no one care that in the reasonably near future oil production is going to slide, the Earth is going to go through turbulent climate change, or both? If you want to break up Canada (and I sure as hell don't), why not wait until after the the crisis has passed, or we have a better idea of how things are going down?

[geoffrey]

Does no one care that in the reasonably near future oil production is going to slide, the Earth is going to go through turbulent climate change, or both? If you want to break up Canada (and I sure as hell don't), why not wait until after the the crisis has passed, or we have a better idea of how things are going down?

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Where the hell did you get that near future oil production is going to slide? Do you know anything about the industry?

[jdobbin]

Boisclair seems to be taking a leaf from Parizeau's playbook. If the PQ forms the next government, Boisclair will form a Constituent Assembly composed of the 75 federal MPs, 125 members of the National Assembly and 200 other deputies elected by PR in Quebec. These 400 will then finalize and approve a new constitution for an independant Quebec based on a proposal the PQ is now preparing.

I don't see why any federalist MP or MNA would ever sit in such an assembly and thereby give it legitimacy.

I think Boisclair has it all backwards. You call a referendum on whether a constituent assembly should be called.

He is basically saying here that Quebec separates if they elect a PQ government. All that's left is the paperwork. No can do. Sorry.

[geoffrey]

I don't think anyone would recognize the seperation if it didn't follow more rigid guidelines. How are house values in Montreal with all this talk of late?

[Charles Anthony]

How are house values in Montreal with all this talk of late?

That is a very interesting question. It opens a very different debate.

Many people look at financial costs of separation and how it creates turmoil in an economy. To bring it down to concrete terms, they look precisely at things like housing prices, jobs and migration. What a lot of people do not grasp is that uncertainty in an economy can create stagnation.

If Quebec separates, there will be more economic certainty in the future. Until Quebec separates, the Quebec economy will always be operating with less predictability.

[Remiel]

I didn't mean " near future " three days from now, I meant " near future " several decades from now. Same time scale with climate change.

I would like to ask Quebec and Albertan sovereigntists this: If your province was invaded, would you defend it? If BC was invaded, would you defend it? If the Maritimes was invaded, would you defend it? If the Territories were invaded, would you defend them? And why?

[Charles Anthony]

I would like to ask Quebec and Albertan sovereigntists this: If your province was invaded, would you defend it?

Yes -- provided I could not afford to bribe the "invaders" and pay them to leave me alone.

And why?

Self defense. Are you looking for a more profound outlook on warfare?

Would I defend BC, the Maritimes, the Territories or any other country? No -- not unless I knew I could win or if there was money to be gained as a mercenary.

I would like to ask the federalists a stupid question: If you felt your country was about to be invaded and you had little chance of defending it, would you emigrate to a different country? or would you take the chance of dying in combat? Why or why not?

[Remiel]

I'd fight here rather than flee. I believe in my country, every part of it, not just where I live. Sub-division is all about smoke and mirrors. Other than reasons of patriotism, if Canada were under a military invasion, I find it doubtful that anywhere else in the world would be safe, and they wouldn't likely to be welcoming, either.

Anyway, if provinces are just as important as countries, then aren't municipalities just as important as provinces? How many municipalities are there where there is a wide-spread feeling of needing to seperate from their province? Toronto? Ottawa? I've seen that notion a handful of times in my life. Quebec and Alberta seperatism rear their heads every day if you pay attention to politics.

Why don't the people living in the oil sands region of Alberta want to seperate from the province so that they alone can benefit from the massive wealth that will result from " their " resources. Quebec seperatists may have a few genuine beefs, but why is it so important to Alberta to seperate? They want oil for themselves? Who was it exactly who gave free land to so many immigrants heading into the West? The Canadian government, the federal one.

And as for the actually title of this thread, the PQ's plans for sovereignty, I would have to say that it is irresponsible for the PQ to treat every election like it is a referendum. There are plenty of people who vote PQ because they prefer that partys policies to that of the other parties, but they still don't vote for seperation. If there is another referendum, then the federal government should hold a referendum in the rest of Canada the week before, and ask them, by vote, whether they want Quebec to seperate. At this point, that would be more much more interesting.

[Charles Anthony]

Other than reasons of patriotism, if Canada were under a military invasion, I find it doubtful that anywhere else in the world would be safe, and they wouldn't likely to be welcoming, either.

Exactly. That is why my question is stupid.

Furthermore, the questions of Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, the Maritimes and the Territories being invaded follow the same logic.

Anyway, if provinces are just as important as countries, then aren't municipalities just as important as provinces?

Yes. I would say they are more important.

If you are wondering if our governments are too big, I would say: "Yes!"

How many municipalities are there where there is a wide-spread feeling of needing to seperate from their province? Toronto? Ottawa?

What difference does it make?

I've seen that notion a handful of times in my life. Quebec and Alberta seperatism rear their heads every day if you pay attention to politics.

Yes and if either of those provinces separate, do you think the rest-of-Canadians will be ready for it?

Quebec seperatists may have a few genuine beefs, but why is it so important to Alberta to seperate? They want oil for themselves?

Why not? That is a good enough reason.

There could be other reasons. Maybe they do not want to be governed by a bunch of people outside of their province.

Who was it exactly who gave free land to so many immigrants heading into the West? The Canadian government, the federal one.

They gave the land so now it belongs to Albertans. Albertans can do whatever they want with it. Are Albertans forever to be enslaved to the "government" of Canada?

And as for the actually title of this thread, the PQ's plans for sovereignty, I would have to say that it is irresponsible for the PQ to treat every election like it is a referendum.

Personally, I think it would only be irresponsible if it moves them away from separation. If it leads them to separation, it is responsible.

There are plenty of people who vote PQ because they prefer that partys policies to that of the other parties, but they still don't vote for seperation.

Funny, a party that focusses on the interests of the people it represents gets votes.

If there is another referendum, then the federal government should hold a referendum in the rest of Canada the week before, and ask them, by vote, whether they want Quebec to seperate. At this point, that would be more much more interesting.

I think rest-of-Canadians should muster up the courage and do that right now.

[geoffrey]

If Quebec separates, there will be more economic certainty in the future. Until Quebec separates, the Quebec economy will always be operating with less predictability.

I'd invest more in Quebec and be more comfortable doing business in Quebec, if they were a seperate country. I'm sure most involved in the financial industry would agree, a weaker, more certain Quebec, is generally more attractive long-term then a stronger, risk filled semi-nation.

I would like to ask Quebec and Albertan sovereigntists this: If your province was invaded, would you defend it?

Yes -- provided I could not afford to bribe the "invaders" and pay them to leave me alone.

I'd defend Alberta, and as long as I'm a Canadian, Canada.

I would like to ask the federalists a stupid question: If you felt your country was about to be invaded and you had little chance of defending it, would you emigrate to a different country? or would you take the chance of dying in combat? Why or why not?

I'd emigrate if I were certain of defeat. I have little irrational loyalty towards coloured fabric.

Anyway, if provinces are just as important as countries, then aren't municipalities just as important as provinces?

Yes. I would say they are more important.

If you are wondering if our governments are too big, I would say: "Yes!"

Absolutely. I see more impact in my life from Alberta and Calgary governments than from Ottawa. If I lived in Quebec or Ontario, and I once did in both, I thought differently. But out here, Ottawa is worthless and disconnected. Even with Harper in power.

I've seen that notion a handful of times in my life. Quebec and Alberta seperatism rear their heads every day if you pay attention to politics.

Yes and if either of those provinces separate, do you think the rest-of-Canadians will be ready for it?

Quebec? Likely, I think we all know it will happen, just a matter of when and on what terms. I wish them luck.

Alberta? No chance, most people think it's just a big myth, Alberta seperatism. I can gaurntee nationalist feelings in Alberta would increase 10-fold if Ignatieff is elected and he implements a carbon tax (NEP II). We clearly won't tolerate more robbery of local wealth. And I can tell you for certain Canada cannot survive on it's current level of social welfare without Alberta's contribution. Everyone would suffer greatly at the loss of Alberta, start thinking about that when you elect your leaders Ontario...

Quebec seperatists may have a few genuine beefs, but why is it so important to Alberta to seperate? They want oil for themselves?

Why not? That is a good enough reason.

There could be other reasons. Maybe they do not want to be governed by a bunch of people outside of their province.

Are you kidding me Remiel? Charles has it right. I think it's more along the lines of having some say over how our province is governed. Right now, I'm ok with being Canadian. Ottawa takes too much, but it's not enough to push many over the line yet. A carbon-tax would be the end of my commitment to Canada and I will support Alberta nationalism upon any such measure. Alberta is treated as an exploitable resource colony by the ROC. It's unacceptable, and I don't know why we've tolerated it so far. Harper was so right with his firewalls letter, it's unfortunate he now wears the Federalist robe, he would have been a great leader of our dismissal of Ottawa's financial imprisionment.

Alberta has a distinct culture as well, you can tell that if you've ever been here. Individualism is alot higher on the priority list here, I feel more at home visiting many American cities then I do visiting Toronto or Montreal. Not that I'd ever want to join the US.

Who was it exactly who gave free land to so many immigrants heading into the West? The Canadian government, the federal one.

They gave the land so now it belongs to Albertans. Albertans can do whatever they want with it. Are Albertans forever to be enslaved to the "government" of Canada?

Yup, that's actually one of the most ridiculous claims I've heard. Because Canada divided up the sections of land, we are obliged to stay? Please. Canada abused many homesteaders, sent them to unsuitable land, in order to provide protection from Manifest Destiney and the loss of their British compatriots in British Columbia. That's the reality, exploitation of the West was the motive day 1 of Canada.

There are plenty of people who vote PQ because they prefer that partys policies to that of the other parties, but they still don't vote for seperation.

Funny, a party that focusses on the interests of the people it represents gets votes.

Read: Sucess of the Reform Party?

If there is another referendum, then the federal government should hold a referendum in the rest of Canada the week before, and ask them, by vote, whether they want Quebec to seperate. At this point, that would be more much more interesting.

English Canada would likely vote to boot Quebec (their financial/cultural burden), and keep Alberta (their cash cow). French Canada would likely vote to stay in Canada (hell, they did twice before) and boot Alberta (their cultural antithesis).

[Remiel]

The only when of those answers I feel inclined to address is the bit about the coloured fabric, Geoffrey.

Take a good look at the flag, then take a good look at a groud, and a good look at the faces of your neighbours. The first is a symbol for the second and the third. " Irrational Loyalty " is to the second and the third.

[geoffrey]

The only when of those answers I feel inclined to address is the bit about the coloured fabric, Geoffrey.

Take a good look at the flag, then take a good look at a groud, and a good look at the faces of your neighbours. The first is a symbol for the second and the third. " Irrational Loyalty " is to the second and the third.

My neighbours are as economically and politically harmed/oppressed as I am by what that flag represents. I am loyal to their concerns, not to the one doing the harm.

[fellowtraveller]

The chances of Alberta separating from Canada under any foreseeable circumstance are zero.

Not slim chances, not a slight possibility, not a reasonable probability.

Zero.

And I speak as an Albertan with no great fondness for Ottawa.

[Charles Anthony]

The chances of Alberta separating from Canada under any foreseeable circumstance are zero.

Quebec separation is a foreseeable circumstance. Are you categorically ruling out the possibility of Quebec separation for ever and ever, amen, not now, not ever? [Personally, I think that it will be a long time before Quebec separates but I do believe they will eventually. I use the same logic that people use to believe that we evolved from sludge. Just give Quebec enough time.]

Once Quebec separates, it is unreasonable to think that Alberrta would not do so later.

[mcqueen625]

Until the popular numbers are in their favor, it makes sense for the separatists to do as much constitutional preparation ahead of time. I encourage them. It gives federalist politicians and complacent Quebeckers less opportunity to say: "Oh, but if we separate, what will we do?" as they shrug their shoulders and retire back to the devil they know which is federalism.

Furthermore, maybe it will encourage people in other provinces to start thinking the same.

I'm already thinking that I could care less whether Quebec leave or stays. In fact maybe it is time for them to pay their share of the national debt and just leave with only the land mass they had on the formation of Canada, which I believe is simply a strip of land across the southern part of the province, since the norther part of the province belongs to First Nations, and I'm sure they do not want a separate Quebec government using their Gestapo the QPP's to enforce rulings from Quebec City onto the aborigianl communities.

The other upside to them leaving is that Canada will no longer have a need for a bilingual policy and all of the taxpayer's dollars that are thrown away on this failed social experiment devised by Trudeau. I believe to date less that 17% of Canadians profess French as their mother-tongue, and that is not a great success story in anyone's books, especially after all of these years.

[mcqueen625]

The chances of Alberta separating from Canada under any foreseeable circumstance are zero.

Not slim chances, not a slight possibility, not a reasonable probability.

Zero.

And I speak as an Albertan with no great fondness for Ottawa.

I think a lot of Albertan's would disagree with you if the circumstance were right, especially if Ottawa attempts another cash grab like Trudeau pulled with the National Energy Program. I truly believe if the Liberal's had gotten re-elected with a majority that would have been their next initiative. Thank God the Liberal's never got re-elected. The real sad part is the Liberal stole the people blind and not one politician is going to go to jail. Sure maybe a few scapegoat bureaucrats night do some time in that country club where Karla Holmolka did her time, but the actual politicians who were pulling the strings behind the scenes will never be brought to justice.

[geoffrey]

The chances of Alberta separating from Canada under any foreseeable circumstance are zero.

Not slim chances, not a slight possibility, not a reasonable probability.

Zero.

And I speak as an Albertan with no great fondness for Ottawa.

Put a pretty face on the separatism concept in Alberta, have Ignatieff institute his NEP II and I wouldn't rule out a close 1995 type vote at least. You always here the talk in coffee shops, ect.. There has just never been a crediable leader of the movement.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Where I live, rural northern Alberta, there a few people happy with the Tory government. There is also a lot of Alberta nationalistic types. The day will soon come when the demographics will shift in favour of a free Alberta, NEP II would do the trick I'm sure.

We need a change in the land of black gold.

[geoffrey]

Where I live, rural northern Alberta, there a few people happy with the Tory government. There is also a lot of Alberta nationalistic types. The day will soon come when the demographics will shift in favour of a free Alberta, NEP II would do the trick I'm sure.

We need a change in the land of black gold.

Absolutely, give us a better deal or let's move on.

[B. Max]

Where I live, rural northern Alberta, there a few people happy with the Tory government. There is also a lot of Alberta nationalistic types. The day will soon come when the demographics will shift in favour of a free Alberta, NEP II would do the trick I'm sure.

We need a change in the land of black gold.

I agree, and the last provincial election where a lot of tory supporters stayed home is the proof. Those who are sure that Alberta won't separate should urge that the secession question be put on all provincial election ballots.

[geoffrey]

Where I live, rural northern Alberta, there a few people happy with the Tory government. There is also a lot of Alberta nationalistic types. The day will soon come when the demographics will shift in favour of a free Alberta, NEP II would do the trick I'm sure.

We need a change in the land of black gold.

I agree, and the last provincial election where a lot of tory supporters stayed home is the proof. Those who are sure that Alberta won't separate should urge that the secession question be put on all provincial election ballots.

I'd put money on the result being higher than 35% for full seperation and 65% for fiscal sovereignty (firewalls letter).

[Remiel]

Doesn't almost every province want a better deal though, and everyone? In that, how is Alberta really different than anywhere else?

I think a lot of it comes down to needing better provincial government, just like needing better federal government.

It is pointed out a lot, the notion of how all of Canada revolves around Ontario and Toronto, blah blah blah. And even the humourous notion that the rest of Canada should just seperate from Ontario, or even more specifically, Toronto. Ontario could probably hold its own as a country, though it would still be much weaker, as would any other region in Canada if it seperated.

If you were to do a study, seperating each province and territory into its own section of it, and looked all over the world to find the country where people were most similiar, I bet you would still find that every province was more similar to the rest of Canada than anywhere else. I doubt Nova Scotia is closest to Scotland, that Quebec is closest to France or that Alberta or Ontario is closest to the US.

I pose a question to everyone... We spend so much time talking about what is keeping us apart, so what is keeping us together?