Ontario's Health Care premium

[Argus]

Interesting datum from the media today.

As some might recall, Dilton McDoily, Ontario's Liberal Premier, flat-out lied about not raising taxes during the election, even signed a pledge, in front of TV cameras, saying he would not raise taxes without a referendum. His campaign commercials all ended with "I won't raise your taxes, but I won't lower them either".

Ten seconds after he won he implimented a huge tax grab in the form of a "health care premium" all Ontario residents were required to pay. He said it was absolutely essential in order to fix health care.

Now it emerges NONE of the money has been spent on health care.

Ontario's spending on health care was up $1.3 billion last year.

Not coincidentally, the new money Ottawa paid to Ontario for health care was ... $1.3 billion.

Therefore, none of the six hundred million plus collected through the special, emergency health care premium was even spent on health care.

[geoffrey]

Is he likely to get re-elected? I don't follow Ontario politics that closely anymore.

[Argus]

Is he likely to get re-elected? I don't follow Ontario politics that closely anymore.

As hard as it is to believe, he's ahead in polls.

Ontario has a lot of stupid people in it.

[geoffrey]

Is he likely to get re-elected? I don't follow Ontario politics that closely anymore.

As hard as it is to believe, he's ahead in polls.

Ontario has a lot of stupid people in it.

I've noticed, that's why I haven't returned. Why you all sit around breathing in that cancer causing air really puzzles me...

I think all the smart people left with all the head office transfers from Toronto to Calgary.

[Renegade]

Is he likely to get re-elected? I don't follow Ontario politics that closely anymore.

Unfortunately you can't count on the conservatives to do any better in this regard. One of my few peeves about Mike Harris is his "Fair Share Health Care Levy". This was dishonestly named to imply it was meant for the health care system when in fact it went to general revenues.

[Charles Anthony]

The only thing that I see as being wrong is that the government raised taxes when they said that they would not. Whether a tax goes into general revenues or not is a triviality. You can not trace an exchanged dollar.

We do not ask our government for a 100% complete breakdown of every cent that each individual pays in taxes and how it relates to total expenditures. Why make a big deal about health care?

[yam]

Unfortunately we should do. . . . until governments get the feeling that the public wants accountability. Otherwise we will suffer the effects of mismanagement or from being lied to.

[Renegade]

The only thing that I see as being wrong is that the government raised taxes when they said that they would not. Whether a tax goes into general revenues or not is a triviality. You can not trace an exchanged dollar.

We do not ask our government for a 100% complete breakdown of every cent that each individual pays in taxes and how it relates to total expenditures. Why make a big deal about health care?

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect integrity of a government. When they label a tax as a "health tax" it is reasonable to assume the government will spend the additional money on healthcare. When they don't, their integrity is called into question, as it is easy to conclude they intentionally misled the public.

If they did not intend for the revenues to be directed at healthcare, why call it a "health tax" except to mislead the public?

[Charles Anthony]

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect integrity of a government.

Can you imagine if the government told us the truth??

If the government came out and said: "In general, we need more of your money. Demand for total expenses is higher than total revenues. Total demand includes healthcare but it also includes: cronyism; waste; skimming off the top; education; pocketing the change; yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, we will raise taxes." it would be difficult to defend. How long would such a government last?

If they did not intend for the revenues to be directed at healthcare, why call it a "health tax" except to mislead the public?

I am cynical. I believe that it was an easy way to mislead the public since everybody asks for health care. Regardless of the province, nobody would accept the alternative: less health care services.

I dream of a day that more people demand less extraneous spending from their governments. If everybody closely examined all public expenditures, there would be more of an expectation to trim the fat instead of reduce "essential" services.

[scribblet]

Dalton and his crew will be re-elected, as long as people continue to collect their 'free' healthcare they won't care, they probably cannot put two and two together either.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Whether a tomato, blueberry or an orange is in power, they in the end are all fruits.

[Michael Hardner]

Those dumb Ontarians also voted for Harris, and will vote for Harper next time.

It's too easy to come up with these little insults, isn't it ?

[geoffrey]

Those dumb Ontarians also voted for Harris, and will vote for Harper next time.

It's too easy to come up with these little insults, isn't it ?

I liked Harris, my family left Ontario just before he resigned. Harris did so many good things for Ontario, he really lacks alot of the respect he deserves. His no nonsense stance at Ipperwash was way beyond his time, McGuinty needs to learn something about how to keep civilians in line with the law. Oh wait, he's already sided with the hooligans twice so far.

Oh well, maybe they'll give him the boot. The only single-issue I'd ever decide a vote on is societal order, and the Liberal government in Ontario is incapable of maintain the Rule of Law.

[cybercoma]

The title of this thread shocks me....

no really.

I'm shocked.

seriously.

Alright, fine. I'm not surprised or shocked.

[Argus]

Can you imagine if the government told us the truth??

If the government came out and said: "In general, we need more of your money. Demand for total expenses is higher than total revenues. Total demand includes healthcare but it also includes: cronyism; waste; skimming off the top; education; pocketing the change; yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, we will raise taxes." it would be difficult to defend. How long would such a government last?

Ahmm, if they had integrity they would likely not be needing money for croneyism, waste, skimming, etc.

[Gord]

The sad part is that the government creates a so called health tax. But unfortunately the money gets placed in the general fund because provincial and federal budgets do not place taxes collected in specific accounts.

I originally heard that the health tax was being used to repair roads in the city of Toronto. I suppose in might be argued that repairing the roads is a health benefit because it would eliminate a victim's chances of secondary injuries while being transported to a hospital via ambulance.

[geoffrey]

Health taxes are not necessarily as evil as presented. I think a tax on junk food, smoking (even more taxes) and drinking would be effective measures in reducing what will become a major crunch on our health care system, obcesity and heart disease. Of course, as a very conservative fiscal type, we'd all see a greater general income tax cut to balance it out .

[Gord]

I think personally the government goes about trying to correct problems backwards. Take for example junk food. The common belief is to tax the food which will make the average Joe not eat it. Maybe the proper way would be to subsidize good food which then would make it cheaper than junk food and maybe the average Joe just might buy it. This theory holds especially true for the poor. I have heard insane proposals of giving the poor a subsidy in the form of a cheque to help them eat better. Obviously making the good food cheaper for them to purchase would work much better. Do you really think giving a poor person money to buy food guarantees that money won't be spent on junk food. I suppose if you are a politician you just might.

[Higgly]

Unfortunately you can't count on the conservatives to do any better in this regard. One of my few peeves about Mike Harris is his "Fair Share Health Care Levy". This was dishonestly named to imply it was meant for the health care system when in fact it went to general revenues.

Bingo. Is it a new tax or just the old Harris tax with a different name?

We do not ask our government for a 100% complete breakdown of every cent that each individual pays in taxes and how it relates to total expenditures. Why make a big deal about health care?

I for one think we should. Publicly held corporations are forced to do this by not only government but also by the various bodies that control the sale of securities. Why can't we have this for government bodies where we have no choice but to 'invest'.

I liked Harris, my family left Ontario just before he resigned. Harris did so many good things for Ontario, he really lacks alot of the respect he deserves. His no nonsense stance at Ipperwash was way beyond his time, McGuinty needs to learn something about how to keep civilians in line with the law. Oh wait, he's already sided with the hooligans twice so far.

Harris was simply a bad manager. If the Walkerton water supply had been in the hands of a private company, its CEO would probably be in jail right now. The Conservatives knew he was a liability and that's why they forced him out in mid term. Didn't help though.

[Charles Anthony]

Maybe the proper way would be to subsidize good food which then would make it cheaper than junk food and maybe the average Joe just might buy it. This theory holds especially true for the poor.

Unfortunately, that suggestion is wasteful. Even the rich will get your subsidy when they do not need it. As a result, it will cost more in the long run.

If I will stoop so low as to suggest a better way to force charity, redeemable coupons or "food stamps" would be cheaper and accomplish the same thing.

We do not ask our government for a 100% complete breakdown of every cent that each individual pays in taxes and how it relates to total expenditures. Why make a big deal about health care?

I for one think we should. Publicly held corporations are forced to do this by not only government but also by the various bodies that control the sale of securities. Why can't we have this for government bodies where we have no choice but to 'invest'.

But you CAN have this -- all you have to do is demand it and use your almighty Power Of Voting to get it!

Harris was simply a bad manager. If the Walkerton water supply had been in the hands of a private company, its CEO would probably be in jail right now.

You want the Premier of a province to micro-manage a local water supply??? put that on your ballot, too!

[Higgly]

You want the Premier of a province to micro-manage a local water supply??? put that on your ballot, too!

He cut funding to the Ministry of the Environment to the point where they did'nt have the resources they needed to monitor the water supply. We're lucky there weren't more disasters. That's bad management.

He also cut funding to the health care system so severely that we lost an entire generation of nurses to the US and then had to invest heavily in educating a new crop. More bad management.

The man was an idiot.

[Charles Anthony]

The man was an idiot.

Go vote and get your new Premier to give it all back to you. Where is the problem?

Do you believe that provincial governments are able to spend spend spend to no limit??

[Higgly]

Do you believe that provincial governments are able to spend spend spend to no limit??

No but apparently Harris and Eves did. They ended up in the poorhouse.

[MightyAC]

Health taxes are not necessarily as evil as presented. I think a tax on junk food, smoking (even more taxes) and drinking would be effective measures in reducing what will become a major crunch on our health care system, obcesity and heart disease. Of course, as a very conservative fiscal type, we'd all see a greater general income tax cut to balance it out .

Is it fair to tax the physically fit when they eat the occaisional burger? No...but I have a solution.

I think every establishment that sells food should be equiped with a government issued, body fat sensing weigh scale. This scale would sit in front of the cash register and while you're checking out the scale would calculate you're weight, BMI and body fat percentage. Based on this information the a progressive tax would be applied to your bill.

[Renegade]

How about we just make people PAY a portion of their healthcare costs? It gives them an incentive to keep cost low and to take care of themsleves to boot.

IMO, people should pay for health insurance, even if that insurance is provided by the government.