Residential Schools

geoffrey · September 4, 2006

Is it this kind of selfcentred meism that creates these Problems? I guess the prayers of commission and ommission have meant little in a lot of lives.

What could I do to stop the abuse we didn't know was happening in residential schools? Why should I feel guilty about what happened?

I don't associate myself so closely with my racial group, in fact, I tend to just ignore racial groups. I don't hold myself responsible for anything any person did just because they were white and the victim was not.

It's not selfcentred... it's common sense. I don't feel guilty for anything I didn't have a hand in.

betsy · September 4, 2006

Sorry but it was a group of concerned citizens discussing what we, as little people, can do in our small corner to improve the world. Its easy to dismiss it as a dinner party ins't it.

Well, I just assumed you were entertaining...not that there is anything wrong if you were. So it was a discussion group.

Anyway, let's get back to your statement about your accusations towards your parents about the holocaust.

I am assuming that like us, they are not involved in anything related to the slaughtering of Jews.

I find it odd that you would readily condemn us all...that we should feel any guilt...over what had happened in the past.

If I try to follow your rationale over this guilt-trip, are you then also saying ALL MUSLIMS should feel guilty for all the terrorisms that had been perpetuated in the name of Allah?

betsy · September 4, 2006

Is it this kind of selfcentred meism that creates these Problems? I guess the prayers of commission and ommission have meant little in a lot of lives.

Whoa! I don't see any self-centeredness in not wallowing in any guilt-feelings when there is nothing to feel guilty about. We have to put things in proper perspectives.

BUT DEFINITELY, there is something psychologically wrong in having an obsession about, and wanting to carry all the guilt over crimes and wrong-doings perpetuated by others.

As someone stated in one of the posts...we should be learning lessons from the past! Which is true...since we cannot do something to change what had already happened....not until someone comes up with the time machine.

If we're going to embark on any collective guilt-tripping party as a society...let's at least choose something that's happening NOW!

AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Think of genocidal maniacs trying to exterminate people because of their race or beliefs.

And speaking of prayers, I thought religion is supposed to be the one thick on the "guilt-traps."

margrace · September 4, 2006

Are we all guilty? I don't believe in the guilt trips put on fundamentalists who say babies are born sinners.

We all are guilty of not seeing, or if we do see we blame the people we see.

They create their own problems, they are poor because they won't work etc. At this meeting I also found out that there are tent cities in our area and that some people are living in box cars. With winter coming on and not only do we live in one of the poorest areas of Canada but the temperature can go to 40 below in the winter. So what happens to these people. These are people who live on $500 a month. Can you live on that?

That is why we deny stories such as the crying baby ones because there are things going on in our world we do not want to see. Betsy asks are the terrorists guilty, obviously but that is being used to ignore our own problems.

Of course there are people who will not work or want a free ride but I think if you make an effort to be where these people are you will find it is a small percentage. One of the problems is the expectations of employers who want to pay minimum wage and wonder, in our area, why they can't get anyone to work for them. I know it is aggravating having to work and then be expected to help others but perhaps that is what our world is all about.

One basic fact is that in order to make ourselves look good we need someone to look down on.

watching&waiting · September 4, 2006

As I said earlier, it would be something that should be investigated only after an official complaint was made. I am not saying this out of sympathy, but rather out of my own thinking that this does sound like something that could have happened. We all know thta the treatment in many of the church run orphanages were not exactly good and christian behaviour. I do not believethat anyone today would willingly trust preists unsupervised acess to young children, relying on faith alone to protect them.

Many things have been brought to light about these times and yes they are not things that we would be proud of. But the shame for these things remains with the churches and that is where the guilt would be as well. If we did nothing to investigate after complaints were made, then and only then would we be guilty in any of this.

As I said earlier, this sounds to me to be quite possible, from the story teller and to that end I would say that if she was really that bothered about all of this, then why is she not bothered anought to file a complaint about it, and then let society investigate it accordingly.

margrace · September 4, 2006

As I said earlier, it would be something that should be investigated only after an official complaint was made. I am not saying this out of sympathy, but rather out of my own thinking that this does sound like something that could have happened. We all know thta the treatment in many of the church run orphanages were not exactly good and christian behaviour. I do not believethat anyone today would willingly trust preists unsupervised acess to young children, relying on faith alone to protect them.
Many things have been brought to light about these times and yes they are not things that we would be proud of. But the shame for these things remains with the churches and that is where the guilt would be as well. If we did nothing to investigate after complaints were made, then and only then would we be guilty in any of this.

As I said earlier, this sounds to me to be quite possible, from the story teller and to that end I would say that if she was really that bothered about all of this, then why is she not bothered anought to file a complaint about it, and then let society investigate it accordingly.

Well for one thing I live on the other side of the country but I do not back down on confrontation when I am faced with it. Just try fighting in Ontario for Pay Equity, been there, done that. It is unbelievable how many people, espcially the Conservative Gov't of Ontario at the time disobay their own laws. Yes there are laws for everything but they can be very costly as I found out.

betsy · September 4, 2006

Are we all guilty? I don't believe in the guilt trips put on fundamentalists who say babies are born sinners.
We all are guilty of not seeing, or if we do see we blame the people we see.

I don't think anyone is denying that some unfortunate atrocities did happened in residential schools.... and orphanages....and all other establishments where power and authority can easily be abused.

We cannot do anything about the past. BUT WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT"S HAPPENING NOW.

It is easy to lecture of not seeing...and yet, those who do claim to "see" are guilty of "selective see-ing".

What is the criteria to be "seen?"....so liberal-minded folks will scream bloody hell and "fight" for your cause?

There are a lot happening right NOW that needs your sympathy....and most importantly there is still time to RECTIFY the problem!

Since we're talking of babies....let's look no farther than the different standard of childcare the native children are getting! Heard about the child that was ripped from her foster parent simply because the foster folks are non-natives? They gave the child back to its mother....who ended up TORTURING AND KILLING her!

And this happened inside the reserve of only a a population of a few thousand. The baby had been "missing" for months...and NOT EVEN ONE in that reserve even knew where that baby was!

It was through the relentlessness of the foster mother, who kept pestering the agency that nobody gave up on this baby! Too bad, too late...she's been murdered!

And this was not the only case!

I HAVE BROUGHT THIS UP SEVERAL TIMES ON DIFFERENT THREADS! Where are the bleeding hearts? How come no one even gave a weak bleat about it?

It's because of SELECTIVE SEE-ING! Some people "see" conveniently on something that....selfishly....further or give support to their OWN AGENDA.

So stop beating your chest with guilt over things that happened years ago! We have more pressing problems that need attention right NOW!

Renegade · September 4, 2006

Are we all guilty? I don't believe in the guilt trips put on fundamentalists who say babies are born sinners.
We all are guilty of not seeing, or if we do see we blame the people we see.

margrace, your responses do not address the question put to you. Why are "we" guilty of crimes committed by priests many decades ago? By "we" I mean Canadian society as it is today, many of whom did not even have ancestors in Canada at the time the alleged incidents happened.

Can you please be more specific who you think is guilty?

betsy · September 4, 2006

Betsy asks are the terrorists guilty, obviously but that is being used to ignore our own problems.

That is not what I asked.

I asked, should ALL MUSLIMS feel guilty over all terrorist acts done by terrorists in the name of Allah?

I am not ignoring the problem by asking this. I am showing the rationale you're giving.

You seem to be deflecting my question.

So, should they feel guilty or not?

jbg · September 5, 2006

What do you mean "your parents had to answer to your accusations about the holocaust?"
Were your parents Nazi members? Or collaborators?

Were they among those who hated, taunted and preyed on the Jews?

Did they support and believe in the visions of Hitler?

I do not understand. Please explain why you had accused them....accused them of what?

Great point. The Jews, who were the victims of the Holocaust, are not playing the "victim card" by suicide bombing in the countries responsible, roughly, Germany, Austria, Poland, and France. Indeed, to the extent there are still Jews there, they contribute to these societies.

scribblet · September 5, 2006

I too draw a thick yellow line between understanding (and admitting) that some things in the past were wrong (maybe, very very very wrong) and feeling personally responsible for them. The past is to learn from, and attempt to do better, not to live in it.

Well said, I definitely concur with that.

Neither I, nor my parents knew anything about residential schools, I certainly take no personal responsibility, either do I take personal responsibility for what happened hundreds of years ago. As tragic as it was we have to move on.

Neither me nor my children nor Canadians in general should have to pay in perpetuity to keep one group of people apart from the rest of us. Canadians are ALL equal.

I too would like to hear a response to Betsy's question, I'm guessing we won't get one.

geoffrey · September 6, 2006

There's a reason why you can't sue after a limited time period... the evidence is unreliable (or dead) and societial factors change. In Alberta the limit is 2 years, no more than 6 elsewhere. The Indians can't sue anymore for it, it doesn't matter. The issue should be dead.

Unless of course, we decide to give them more rights based on race again... no reason to think the apartheid will end.

NativeCharm · September 12, 2006

Firstly, I'd like to offer a point of view that was sad for me to learn. The horrors and tragedies in residential school history is not only undeniable but clearly misunderstood... especially by most of you commenting on this thread. According to the traumatizing and lengthy research study I undertook with this matter, it is well documented that indeed children were 'taken away' for disposable...often in a shoe box.

There are many tales, stories, cases of conviction that prove the sexual manisfestation that occured with the Native residents of the 'godly' schools.

For those that dare to learn the mystery, there is a 'supposed' burial ground that contains hundreds if not thousands of these babies that were cruelly created, and destroyed at the hands of the colonized church. Many of you may not know , remember or even care about the apologies made by the vatican to the Native peoples for the 'god awful' crimes that were evidently commited throughout 'assimilation'.

No... there may not be any instant links for you lazy researchers, but the facts are there, in black and white...moreso engraved in the hearts for several generations.

As many turn a blind eye, many women weep.

geoffrey · September 12, 2006

Many of you may not know , remember or even care about the apologies made by the vatican to the Native peoples for the 'god awful' crimes that were evidently commited throughout 'assimilation'.

That's quite the comment, any proof of such a statement? The problem with this and most of the residential school issue... it's all based on hearsay.

watching&waiting · September 12, 2006

I am no lawyer but I have had more experience with the law then I wish I had, and if I remember correctly the time limitation for lawsuits is the 2years and 6 years, but not from the time it happened but from the time it was reasonably found out to have happened. Since the church still exists there is still possibly value in that suit. But who would be the complaints and how would one prove by preponderence of evidence that these crimes existed. Some young new lawyers may very well volunteer for such cases or even take on contigencies.

NativeCharm · September 12, 2006

GEO: I'm not gonna do your research for you. I've done far more than my share. It amuses me that you THINK that residential school deaths, survivors, history, and crimes is hearsay. This clearly demonstrates your inability to seperate truth from fiction with your lazy mentality and refusal to accept facts.

What's the matter..did your reality check bounce?

geoffrey · September 12, 2006

GEO: I'm not gonna do your research for you. I've done far more than my share. It amuses me that you THINK that residential school deaths, survivors, history, and crimes is hearsay. This clearly demonstrates your inability to seperate truth from fiction with your lazy mentality and refusal to accept facts.
What's the matter..did your reality check bounce?

No, I know that there were some abuses. I wouldn't dispute that.

But when you make a statement along the lines of the Vatican making an apology, it's not unreasonable to ask for a citation. If your unwilling to back up your factual claims with references, then we're all rather forced to believe they are fabricated.

I'm not asking you to prove the abuses happened or anything, just asking where you got the idea that the Vatican apologized for "god awful" crimes.

Who's Doing What? · September 12, 2006

GEO: I'm not gonna do your research for you. I've done far more than my share. It amuses me that you THINK that residential school deaths, survivors, history, and crimes is hearsay. This clearly demonstrates your inability to seperate truth from fiction with your lazy mentality and refusal to accept facts.
What's the matter..did your reality check bounce?

What's hearsay is your claim the Catholic Church gave an appology for what went on in the Residential schools.

Prove it. Post a link.

More hearsay is the mass graves of half-breed babies who were fathered and killed by the priests.

Prove it. Post a link.

I know terrible things happened in the residential schoolos. I know a survivor, who 60+ years later is still overwhelmed when they talk about it. But I didn't do it. And I'll be damned if someone is going to make me feel guilty about it.

margrace · September 13, 2006

GEO: I'm not gonna do your research for you. I've done far more than my share. It amuses me that you THINK that residential school deaths, survivors, history, and crimes is hearsay. This clearly demonstrates your inability to seperate truth from fiction with your lazy mentality and refusal to accept facts.

What's the matter..did your reality check bounce?

What's hearsay is your claim the Catholic Church gave an appology for what went on in the Residential schools.

Prove it. Post a link.

More hearsay is the mass graves of half-breed babies who were fathered and killed by the priests.

Prove it. Post a link.

I know terrible things happened in the residential schoolos. I know a survivor, who 60+ years later is still overwhelmed when they talk about it. But I didn't do it. And I'll be damned if someone is going to make me feel guilty about it.

No but you are, like me, responsible for what is going on today in places like Africa, just as my parents were responsible for what went on in their time, the holocoust.

You people remind me of the holocost deniers by the way.

Renegade · September 13, 2006

No but you are, like me, responsible for what is going on today in places like Africa, just as my parents were responsible for what went on in their time, the holocoust.

You keep repeating this, yet refuse to explain why you think anyone but the perpetrators are responsible. I'm getting the impression that you have no explaination.

Who's Doing What? · September 13, 2006

No but you are, like me, responsible for what is going on today in places like Africa, just as my parents were responsible for what went on in their time, the holocoust.
You people remind me of the holocost deniers by the way.

Bull****!

Enlighten me as to how I am responsible for the genocide of Huutu's and Tutsi's?

Or how my existance is linked to the sexual assault rate in south africa?

Perhaps it was my life which caused the drought and famine of the 80's?

Unless your parents were Nazi's or Germans that knew what was going on, why should they feel guilty?

You need a reality check.

jbg · September 13, 2006

GEO: I'm not gonna do your research for you. I've done far more than my share. It amuses me that you THINK that residential school deaths, survivors, history, and crimes is hearsay. This clearly demonstrates your inability to seperate truth from fiction with your lazy mentality and refusal to accept facts.
What's the matter..did your reality check bounce?

A nasty response like that means to me that you have no substantial basis for your accusations. Once you start with insults you have already lost the argument.

jbg · September 13, 2006

Bull****!
Enlighten me as to how I am responsible for the genocide of Huutu's and Tutsi's?

Or how my existance is linked to the sexual assault rate in south africa?

Perhaps it was my life which caused the drought and famine of the 80's?

Unless your parents were Nazi's or Germans that knew what was going on, why should they feel guilty?

You need a reality check.

No, either Bush, Harper or Blair caused all of the above.

NativeCharm · September 13, 2006

LMFAO, if insult throwing was the basis for losing an argument then EVERYONE in this forum is a loser.

Now THAT'S funny :lol:

margrace · September 14, 2006

While I am no great believer in some of the stories in the Bible, I do believe that a lot of the teachings beleived that Jesus said have a great moral to them.

One is " Even as ye have done this onto the least of these my children, ye have done it onto me"

Another is "Love your neighbour as yourself"

I find that when one suggests that by our selfishness we create a lot of the problems in this world, Anger is the reaction. When something makes one angry it usually can be associated with ones guilt.