Residential Schools

margrace · September 1, 2006

A young man who is a cousin of my husband is on the other side of the country. He lives in a town where there are a lot of native people.

He was walking on the street near the cemetery when he came across a native woman sitting on a bench crying. Thinking she might need help he went up to her and asked if there was anything she needed. Her reply was that she couldn't forget the crying babies.

She went on to explain that she had been in a Residential school and when the priests got the girls pregnant and the babies were born, they were put in a room to cry until they died.

There were 8 people around that table listening to this story and the shocked looks on the faces said it all.

Hydraboss · September 1, 2006

Perhaps I am not completely knowledgeable in the entire residential schools issue, but is there any proof that these priests were murderers, because that's one hell of a claim you just made. I would be interested in a link to documented proof.

Riverwind · September 1, 2006

Perhaps I am not completely knowledgeable in the entire residential schools issue, but is there any proof that these priests were murderers, because that's one hell of a claim you just made. I would be interested in a link to documented proof.

It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about what happened a residential schools because too many people are manipulating the issue to advance a political and/or economic agenda. The story in this thread is a good example. It is possible (even likely) that it really happened in one school at one time to a few children, however, the previous poster told the story in a way intended to leave the impression that similar crimes occurred all of the time in different places.

You can contrast the way this story was told and the recent stories about sexually abusive hockey coaches. In the case of the hockey coaches the media and the victims make it very clear that specific individuals are guilty of crimes and do not try to imply that every kid who ever went to hockey camp was abused. Nor do the accusers try to make the claim that the abusers were acting with the permission of the hockey organizations. The abusers are clearly identified as criminals and if the gov't or the hockey organizations are vicariously liable it is because of ignorance or incompetence - not deliberate collaboration.

myata · September 1, 2006

You can't really contrast the two. The state has taken children from their parents by force and gave them into care of an organization known to turn a blind eye on "minor" sins of its members. I agree that the truth about much of what's happened there is probably lost for good, but as a practice it should be remembered as an utmost disgrace. BTW illustrates very well where the "moral and ethical superiority" attitude will end up if allowed to propagate from private thoughts into practice.

margrace · September 1, 2006

Hard to believe isn't it. But it was a random encounter of a young man with a situation he had never experienced. Proof, who is going to believe a Native woman. But why would he make up such a story and why would she.

It easier for us to say something never happened than to admit our own guilt in this. We get very defensive don't we.

jdobbin · September 1, 2006

Don't know how accurate any of this is but there is a growing movement to identify people died in residential school and find out the circumstances.

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/

Gayogoho · September 1, 2006

Perhaps I am not completely knowledgeable in the entire residential schools issue, but is there any proof that these priests were murderers, because that's one hell of a claim you just made. I would be interested in a link to documented proof.

Heres a link with some info on residential schools has some documents just got to read them.My mother was a residential school survivor and does not like to talk about her experience there.So if any survivors out there are reading this site contains information which may trigger.(suffer trauma caused by remembering or reliving past abuses)

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/

http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-692/disast...ential_schools/

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/gs/schl_e.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_resid.htm

http://www.albertasource.ca/treaty8/eng/18...al_schools.html

some to get you started.

Ske:kon Riverspin

How can you compare the 2, you did nothing to inform him of anything other than your opinion.Why is it you do not like Onkwehonwe people riverspin?

jdobbin · September 1, 2006

Heres a link with some info on residential schools has some documents just got to read them.My mother was a residential school survivor and does not like to talk about her experience there.So if any survivors out there are reading this site contains information which may trigger.(suffer trauma caused by remembering or reliving past abuses)

Does she know of any murders?

Gayogoho · September 1, 2006

Heres a link with some info on residential schools has some documents just got to read them.My mother was a residential school survivor and does not like to talk about her experience there.So if any survivors out there are reading this site contains information which may trigger.(suffer trauma caused by remembering or reliving past abuses)

Does she know of any murders?

No she never mentioned any murders but we have never had a indepth conversation on her experience.Some survivors do not like to recall the abuses they faced as they had to cope with them and would not like to relive those moments in their lives that they deal with everyday.She does speak of my great-grandmother and the strength she drew from her traditional teachings.As she was also a residential school survivor who retained her culture and language, not many were able to do that.

jdobbin · September 1, 2006

No she never mentioned any murders but we have never had a indepth conversation on her experience.Some survivors do not like to recall the abuses they faced as they had to cope with them and would not like to relive those moments in their lives that they deal with everyday.She does speak of my great-grandmother and the strength she drew from her traditional teachings.As she was also a residential school survivor who retained her culture and language, not many were able to do that.

It is hard for people to get an idea of what the schools were like when so few have spoken about it. If there were murders that took place, the actual perpetrators might get away.

There has been a focus on compensation but that might bring as many problems as it attempts to solve. Already unscrupulous types are pre-selling things like trucks to people due a check. Compensation doesn't address a lot of issues.

Riverwind · September 1, 2006

Heres a link with some info on residential schools has some documents just got to read them.

Any source that starts out with claims like 'holocaust' and 'genocide' is not credible because whoever put the information together clearly has an agenda. People with agendas selectively pick information that support the conclusions that they have already decided to draw so you can never get the complete picture from those stories. Those links are as useful as a report on the harmful effects of smoking prepared by the tobacco companies.

If people are interested in a reasonably adgenda free discussion of the residential school issue then I suggest they start here: http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/sg/sgm10_e.html I realize that Royal Commission documents are not automatically 'agenda free', however, if you read through this one you can tell by the language and choice of words that authors were trying to be fair to both sides.

How can you compare the 2, you did nothing to inform him of anything other than your opinion.

I warned him that he has to take any information on this topic with a grain of salt since there is so much self interested propaganda out there.

Hydraboss · September 1, 2006

I had no intention of starting a debate on whether or not the residential schools debate is based on truth. My interest is solely in the statement that Margrace made. Priests were killers. If not able to prove it, this would represent the most heinous slander I have ever heard. I only wanted to know if there was in fact documented proof of this ever occuring.

betsy · September 1, 2006

Hard to believe isn't it. But it was a random encounter of a young man with a situation he had never experienced. Proof, who is going to believe a Native woman. But why would he make up such a story and why would she.
It easier for us to say something never happened than to admit our own guilt in this. We get very defensive don't we.

Excuse me....who are these "us" and "we" who are supposed to feel "guilty" over atrocities made by a few?

watching&waiting · September 1, 2006

I am not religious and I do not worry about burning in hell or in paradise in heaven. But I do see that by past verified actions of the Churches and their priests, that not only could this have happened, I would have to give more weight to the possibility then to the dismissal of the events.

To me this would be a good case to investigate, and see just when and where such things were done. While the priesthood today is more inclined to see sexual abuse of young boys, it was not always just that way. We do know that priests and children have been proven in more then a few occassions, so logic only says it would be worth the investigation.

The Catholic Churchs here in North America have already braced themselves against the on slaught of abuse cases, that are now coming forward. The churches now see that they can no longer just move priests with these tendencies around and hide thier deeds. This is what has caused much of the stories now coming forward.

The time of looking up to the priest as a blessed person, is not going to wash away the stains of the past, nor should it. But only when the churches themselves start taking control over this aspect, and openly show they are trying to live up to the better example type of priest, then and only then will they deserve consideration they seek.

Hydraboss · September 1, 2006

My wife and I are both Roman Catholic, and there is no way in hell we would leave either of our kids in the sole company of a priest. The days of trust without question of the clergy has long since passed, and the Catholic church will never do anything to counteract that because that would be an admission that these things could still happen.

And what's worse, I think they will.

Ottawa Core · September 1, 2006

There were 8 people around that table listening to this story and the shocked looks on the faces said it all.

i am sorry to hear of the emotional connection you have made to this woman's heart. this is not a place to express these concerns (as you have seen). bless you and your cousin for hearing the children's cries. nyah weh.

jbg · September 1, 2006

Perhaps I am not completely knowledgeable in the entire residential schools issue, but is there any proof that these priests were murderers, because that's one hell of a claim you just made. I would be interested in a link to documented proof.

Here it is:

As a very great leader of a very great democracy once said: "A proof is a proof (Link) What kind of proof ? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."

margrace · September 2, 2006

Hard to believe isn't it. But it was a random encounter of a young man with a situation he had never experienced. Proof, who is going to believe a Native woman. But why would he make up such a story and why would she.

It easier for us to say something never happened than to admit our own guilt in this. We get very defensive don't we.

Excuse me....who are these "us" and "we" who are supposed to feel "guilty" over atrocities made by a few?

As my parents had to answer to my accusations as a child about the Holocost,we all are guilty of these crimes also

Riverwind · September 2, 2006

we all are guilty of these crimes also

Why? Should we feel all feel guilty because of what Paul Benardo did? The only people that should feel guilty are the people who actually committed the crimes. The idea that children should be held responsible for the crimes of the parents is a concept we left behind with fedualism.

betsy · September 2, 2006

As my parents had to answer to my accusations as a child about the Holocost,we all are guilty of these crimes also

What do you mean "your parents had to answer to your accusations about the holocaust?"

Were your parents Nazi members? Or collaborators?

Were they among those who hated, taunted and preyed on the Jews?

Did they support and believe in the visions of Hitler?

I do not understand. Please explain why you had accused them....accused them of what?

myata · September 2, 2006

I too draw a thick yellow line between understanding (and admitting) that some things in the past were wrong (maybe, very very very wrong) and feeling personally responsible for them. The past is to learn from, and attempt to do better, not to live in it.

betsy · September 2, 2006

A young man who is a cousin of my husband is on the other side of the country. He lives in a town where there are a lot of native people.
He was walking on the street near the cemetery when he came across a native woman sitting on a bench crying. Thinking she might need help he went up to her and asked if there was anything she needed. Her reply was that she couldn't forget the crying babies.

She went on to explain that she had been in a Residential school and when the priests got the girls pregnant and the babies were born, they were put in a room to cry until they died.

There were 8 people around that table listening to this story and the shocked looks on the faces said it all.

Btw Margrace, how sure is your cousin that he was not talking to a cuckoo??

I guess it was a good conversation piece around the dinner table when you're entertaining....but I hope someone in your group at least questioned the mental condition of this woman....or had questioned its intended effect as another one of those "sob stories." The woman was crying...the babies were crying...

hey, it could've happened, don't get me wrong. But before you all jump pronto in the guilt wagon and start bawling your eyes out....you know what I mean.

geoffrey · September 2, 2006

Hard to believe isn't it. But it was a random encounter of a young man with a situation he had never experienced. Proof, who is going to believe a Native woman. But why would he make up such a story and why would she.

It easier for us to say something never happened than to admit our own guilt in this. We get very defensive don't we.

Excuse me....who are these "us" and "we" who are supposed to feel "guilty" over atrocities made by a few?

As my parents had to answer to my accusations as a child about the Holocost,we all are guilty of these crimes also

I don't feel any guilt for anything that's happened beyond my control. Nor do I cave into the whinning kids arguments portrayed as an emotional appeal for compensation. Facts are what the legal system is based on, when they have them, I'd like to see such murders or whatnot prosecuted. But until then, just because a story makes you feel a little sad, doesn't mean the person telling it deserves money or anything. It's quite a complex that one would have to feel guilt for things far beyond any insight or control they had.

we all are guilty of these crimes also
Why? Should we feel all feel guilty because of what Paul Benardo did? The only people that should feel guilty are the people who actually committed the crimes. The idea that children should be held responsible for the crimes of the parents is a concept we left behind with fedualism.

Exactly.

margrace · September 4, 2006

A young man who is a cousin of my husband is on the other side of the country. He lives in a town where there are a lot of native people.

He was walking on the street near the cemetery when he came across a native woman sitting on a bench crying. Thinking she might need help he went up to her and asked if there was anything she needed. Her reply was that she couldn't forget the crying babies.

She went on to explain that she had been in a Residential school and when the priests got the girls pregnant and the babies were born, they were put in a room to cry until they died.

There were 8 people around that table listening to this story and the shocked looks on the faces said it all.

Btw Margrace, how sure is your cousin that he was not talking to a cuckoo??

I guess it was a good conversation piece around the dinner table when you're entertaining....but I hope someone in your group at least questioned the mental condition of this woman....or had questioned its intended effect as another one of those "sob stories." The woman was crying...the babies were crying...

hey, it could've happened, don't get me wrong. But before you all jump pronto in the guilt wagon and start bawling your eyes out....you know what I mean.

Sorry but it was a group of concerned citizens discussing what we, as little people, can do in our small corner to improve the world. Its easy to dismiss it as a dinner party ins't it.

margrace · September 4, 2006

Hard to believe isn't it. But it was a random encounter of a young man with a situation he had never experienced. Proof, who is going to believe a Native woman. But why would he make up such a story and why would she.

It easier for us to say something never happened than to admit our own guilt in this. We get very defensive don't we.

Excuse me....who are these "us" and "we" who are supposed to feel "guilty" over atrocities made by a few?

As my parents had to answer to my accusations as a child about the Holocost,we all are guilty of these crimes also

I don't feel any guilt for anything that's happened beyond my control. Nor do I cave into the whinning kids arguments portrayed as an emotional appeal for compensation. Facts are what the legal system is based on, when they have them, I'd like to see such murders or whatnot prosecuted. But until then, just because a story makes you feel a little sad, doesn't mean the person telling it deserves money or anything. It's quite a complex that one would have to feel guilt for things far beyond any insight or control they had.

we all are guilty of these crimes also
Why? Should we feel all feel guilty because of what Paul Benardo did? The only people that should feel guilty are the people who actually committed the crimes. The idea that children should be held responsible for the crimes of the parents is a concept we left behind with fedualism.

Exactly.

Is it this kind of selfcentred meism that creates these Problems? I guess the prayers of commission and ommission have meant little in a lot of lives.