Them thar is Nazi's!

[Argus]

Well, Israel can be compared more directly to the Nazis. (It would still be false, but it actually makes more sense).

Not by any conceivable stretch of logic.

Israel is an expansionist state, like Nazi germany.

Israel is a military powerhouse. If it wanted to, it could fairly easily take over nearby countries like Lebanon and Syria. But it hasn't. For that matter, the obvious Nazi answer to the Palestinians is the "final solution". Israel should have been slaughtering them by the millions. I mean, they've been in complete control for over fifty years. A more humane method, but one they still haven't done, is to force them over the borders into Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They should also be forcing Israeli Arabs out. A ruthless government would have done that long since. A Nazi government most certainly would have done it long ago.

And yet, they haven't even attempted to force Palestinians out. Their Arab population has far more rights than other Arab populations, and the ones they don't have are mainly related to security issues involving attacks from Arab states and terrorist groups. Israel has an independant court system, democratic rights, and a free press.

It displaces people in order to creeate room for a state that mustbe Jewish in Character. This is comparable to the nazi idea of a pure aryan race that could not accomodate competing races.

Nonsense. The purpose behind a Jewish state is to protect Jews, not because of a sense of ethnic, religious or racial superiority, as the Nazis have. Furthermore, as I've already pointed out, they've made no effort at forcing out or eliminating their large Arab population.

Jews, likewise, cannot accomodate competing religions for fear of losing their jewish character, this is why they will not allow refugees the legal right of return,

What do you think Quebecers would say if we told them we were going to move six million unilinigual English speakers into the province? There'd be blood in the streets.

Of course, the Israeli situation is nowhere near comperable. The Palestinians hate the Israelis so much that they have collectively embraced the cult of the suicide martyr, gleefully celebrating their own children's deaths if they can take a few Israelis with them. And you're actually expecting Israel to bring millions of Palestinians inside their borders and make them citizens? And what happens if these millions of Palestinians join together with the rapidly burgeoning Arab Israeli population to form a majority? Another Holocaust, perhaps? The idea of bringing millions of Palestinians into Israel is utterly ludicrous: A recipe for instant civil war. The idea they even have the "right of return" is preposterous given barely 5% of them have ever seen the land they claim as theirs.

Kenny's comments are dishonest, and typical of low-brow uneducated conservatism. Hezbollah is no more a terrorist organization than Israel.

This sentence just shows how ideological zealotry can not only wipe away logic, but eliminate the sense of morality that someone raised in a western democratic society ought to posess. What I read from this is that terrorism is perfectly acceptable to you as long as it's being perpetrated against people you don't like - ie, Israelis.

And regardless of what westerners beleive, the perception of the people in the ME is that Hezbollah is a resistance movement that is responsible for ending the Israeli occupation of lebanon.

I see no reason why westerners ought to alter their beliefs to match those of poorly educated, unsophisticated religious fanatics.

All Canada is doing by saying these things is alienating the common arab

If the common Arab supports terrorism then I'm not going to cry many tears about alienating them.

Hezbollahs tactics are not in anyway disimilar to that of Israel.

They are entirely dissimilar to Israel.

Israel kidnaps civilians and puts them in torture prisons without any trial, never to be heard from again.

Name one.

to the most common definitions of terrorism, as do most powerful governments, the US being the #1 terrorist state in existence based on common definitions of what terrorism is).

I have a feeling that when you say "based on common definitions" you mean "Based on what my wacko friends think".

I knew when the conservatives took power in Canada I would have to be subjected to these asinine statements from ignorant rural bumpkins of the conservative base.

Sounds like there's a lot of hate in you. I can see why you'd be a Hezbollah supporter.

This is sad. I used to love this country, but as every day goes by i lose more and more respect for Canadas position in the world.

Maybe Iran takes immigrants. I'm sure you'd be very happy there.

[Argus]

It is debatable as to whether or not Hezbollah is currently callig for the complete destruction of Israel. There is a difference between Zionist and Jew that people in the west refuse to acknowledge,

Speaking at a graduation ceremony in Haret Hreik, Nasrallah announced on October 22, 2002: "if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."[7][8] The New York Times qualifies this as "genocidal thinking"[9], whereas the New York Sun likens it to the 1992 Hezbollah statement, which vowed, "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."[10] Michael Rubin qualifies his goal as genocide too, quoting Nasrallah ruling out "co-existence with" the Jews or "peace", as "they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."[11] The Age quotes him like so: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."[12]

From Wikopedia

Also

Seeing Jews as "descendants of apes and pigs" is common also in Shi'ite Islam. Such statements appear, for instance, in a 1998 speech by Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah on the occasion of the Shi'ite 'Ashoura holiday. Nasrallah regretted that the holiday fell "on the 50th anniversary of the bitter and distressing historical catastrophe of the establishment of the state of the grandsons of apes and pigs – the Zionist Jews – on the land of Palestine and Jerusalem." He closed his speech with these words: "... We reaffirm the slogan of the struggle against the Great Satan and call, like last year: 'Death to America. To the murderers of the prophets, the grandsons of apes and pigs,' we say: ... 'Death to Israel...'"

Apes and pigs

Also this:

Shiite scholar Amal Saad-Ghorayeb analyzed the anti-Jewish roots of Hezbollah ideology in her book Hezbollah: Politics & Religion. In it, she quotes Hassan Nasrallah describing his antipathy toward Jews:

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)

[WestViking]

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

I could not find anywhere where their platform of '96 calls for the total destruction of the Israeli state. I know of the 1985 document that does call for the elimination of the zionist entity. But the 96 document is what is published on their websites, not the 85 document.

Your inability to read and comprehend simple English renders your arguments nul and void.

[jbg]

Well, Israel can be compared more directly to the Nazis. (It would still be false, but it actually makes more sense).

Israel is an expansionist state, like Nazi germany. It displaces people in order to creeate room for a state that must

be Jewish in Character. This is comparable to the nazi idea of a pure aryan race that could not accomodate competing races. Jews, likewise, cannot accomodate competing religions for fear of losing their jewish character, this is why they will not allow refugees the legal right of return, and insist on religious colonialists from the west emigrating to illegal Jewish settlements on stolen land. Jews are not Nazis, but they fit the definition more aptly than does Hezbollah.

That is a bitterly offensive comment. The Nazi Holocaust had its "official" beginnings with a mass police and military riot against Jews called Christallnacht, where synagogues, Jewish homes and businesses were wantonly smashed to pieces by thugs, with the police and armed forces helping or just standing by. Jews were hauled off to concentration camps "for their own protection". Eventually, mass gassings started. By the time it was done, 1/3 of the Jews alive in 1933 were dead. The level of human savagery was unimaginable before. Since then, only the Muslims and perhaps the rulers of Democratic Kampuchea, Chairman Mao and the rulers in Pyong Yang have emulated it.

The Israelis, on the other hand, are defending themselves against random and wanton slaughter of a kind illsutrated in the US on September 11, 2001. The kind of slaughter which considers slaughtering a father and daughter having a last talk before her wedding, in a cafe, an act of heroism. The same kind of slaughter where people like Saddam Hussein pay families with teenage children for their children to blow themselves to smithereens to kill others.

Youro comparison, like that of Eurotrash politicians, is disgusting and morally bankrupt.

Kenny's comments are dishonest, and typical of low-brow uneducated conservatism. Hezbollah is no more a terrorist organization than Israel. And regardless of what westerners beleive, the perception of the people in the ME is that Hezbollah is a resistance movement that is responsible for ending the Israeli occupation of lebanon. All Canada is doing by saying these things is alienating the common arab, and cheapening the horror of the holocaust. Im surprised the Jewish lobby groups are not angry at the abuse of the language, and the cheapening of their own suffering. These are not smart comments to make.

They are very smart comments to make. They are the truth. Finally, Canada has a leader not afraid to say the obvious, the simple and the true.

I knew when the conservatives took power in Canada I would have to be subjected to these asinine statements from ignorant rural bumpkins of the conservative base. Whats even worse is one day we have Bush calling them islamo-fascists (obvious nazi reference) and a few days later the canucks are making the nazi comparison as well. Im sure they are in cahoots on this nonsense. It is shocking to me that intellectually challenged canadians might latch on to this and actually go forth believing we are in an epic battle against nazis. Politicians just use these terms to gain political capital, and if they can paint the image that we are fighting nazis im sure the typical National Post readership will believe it. This is sad. I used to love this country, but as every day goes by i lose more and more respect for Canadas position in the world.

Andrew

I'm urban myself. When I went to Cornell as an 18 year old, I assumed that the students at the State College of Agriculture and Life Sciences (so-called "Aggies") would be ignorant bumpkins. Until I switched out of pre-med with a "C" first semester freshman chemistry, and a lower grade second semester.=, and many of them got "A's". And until they started changing my politics away from reflexively leftist positions by the force of their arguments.

Why not watch, listen and learn before you insult?

[jbg]

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

Your inability to read and comprehend simple English renders your arguments nul and void.

But WestViking, Hezbollah says it wants to "liberate". Doesn't that mean to free, to establish liberty?

[AndrewL]

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

I could not find anywhere where their platform of '96 calls for the total destruction of the Israeli state. I know of the 1985 document that does call for the elimination of the zionist entity. But the 96 document is what is published on their websites, not the 85 document.

Your inability to read and comprehend simple English renders your arguments nul and void.

What that paragraph says to me is that they will continue the resistance until Israel leaves the occupied lands. Occupied strip is reference to the Gaza strip. They also mention to refuse to take seriously the negotiations that would allow Israel to have any control over the palestinians at the expense of the palestinians.

What the paragraph implies is that if Israel makes final borders within the legal Israeli state, the resistance will end.

So what did i miss?

Andrew

[AndrewL]

If Hezbollah can give financial aid to the people of Lebanon to rebuild, you know damn well where the money is coming from. If Syria and Iran really want to help the Lebanese people, why don't they do it through Lebanon's legitimate government instead of through their own proxy army which they maintain on someone else's soil?

Because the lebanese government does not have the ability to be as effective with the aid money. Hezbollah has pretty much cornered this market. I guarantee if this money was filtered through a modern bureacracy most of it would be used for bribes, hookers, and other typical politician like activities.

Andrew

Of course the people of Lebanon are to stupid and corrupt to elect a government that can be supported with international aid. Much better to give it to a foreign sponsored terrorist organization who is responsible to no one. What a condescending, arrogant attitude. Of course every penny will be spent on aid but not a nickel on arms because Hezbollah will submit to an independent audit at the end of the year. Man oh man, what are you on?

Though Hezbollah is only one of many groups providing social services in Lebanon, its reputation for delivering those services honestly is unmatched, making it that much harder to circumvent. In nearby Nabatiye, for instance, Mercy Corps has begun working through the Jabbar Foundation, a nonprofit group run by Yaseen Jabbar, a wealthy member of Parliament.

But the mayor of Nabatiye, Mustapha Badreddine, 55, says he considers the foundation ineffective. For his own part, Mr. Badreddine says he does not belong to Hezbollah, but that he works with it because it is trustworthy, far more so than any other group in the area.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/23/world/mi...amp;oref=slogin (signup is free)

It is getting to the people.

Andrew

[jbg]

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

I could not find anywhere where their platform of '96 calls for the total destruction of the Israeli state. I know of the 1985 document that does call for the elimination of the zionist entity. But the 96 document is what is published on their websites, not the 85 document.

Your inability to read and comprehend simple English renders your arguments nul and void.

What that paragraph says to me is that they will continue the resistance until Israel leaves the occupied lands. Occupied strip is reference to the Gaza strip. They also mention to refuse to take seriously the negotiations that would allow Israel to have any control over the palestinians at the expense of the palestinians.

What the paragraph implies is that if Israel makes final borders within the legal Israeli state, the resistance will end.

So what did i miss?

Andrew

I guess you have no memory at all. I'm a bit of an amnesiac, but I do recall that Arafat was offered 97% of that land back in 2000 by Clinton and Barak. Arafat's response was to demand a "right of return" of Arabs to the remaining parts of Israel. They frankly consider post-1948 Armicist (sp) and pre-1967 boundaries to be "occupied territory" as well.

[Wilber]

Andrew

When we deal with other countries we deal with the legitimate governments of those countries, we do not pick and chose which factions of those governments suit us and ignore the rest. We expect no less when other countries deal with us. You seem to feel that we do not have to abide by these courtesies because we are somehow superior and know what is good for them.

[WestViking]

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

I could not find anywhere where their platform of '96 calls for the total destruction of the Israeli state. I know of the 1985 document that does call for the elimination of the zionist entity. But the 96 document is what is published on their websites, not the 85 document.

Your inability to read and comprehend simple English renders your arguments nul and void.

What that paragraph says to me is that they will continue the resistance until Israel leaves the occupied lands. Occupied strip is reference to the Gaza strip. They also mention to refuse to take seriously the negotiations that would allow Israel to have any control over the palestinians at the expense of the palestinians.

What the paragraph implies is that if Israel makes final borders within the legal Israeli state, the resistance will end.

So what did i miss?

Andrew

"until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty"

"away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists"

Isreal does not occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, so what area is Hezbollah "liberating" if not the state of Isreal itself? Restored to the national sovereignty is bullroar as the West Bank is a no-mans land that Jordan has refused to recognize as its own.

[AndrewL]

Argus,

Not by any conceivable stretch of logic.

Yes it is conceivable. My intent was to show how easy the Nazi label can be applied, whether to Israel or Hezbollah.

Israel is a military powerhouse. If it wanted to, it could fairly easily take over nearby countries like Lebanon and Syria. But it hasn't. For that matter, the obvious Nazi answer to the Palestinians is the "final solution". Israel should have been slaughtering them by the millions. I mean, they've been in complete control for over fifty years. A more humane method, but one they still haven't done, is to force them over the borders into Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They should also be forcing Israeli Arabs out. A ruthless government would have done that long since. A Nazi government most certainly would have done it long ago.

I said clearly the analogy was false in my original post. I guess you are just choosing to ignore that.

But in the end we cannot deny that Israel would not exist unless it was expansionist. Just because they do not have the means, contrary to your opinion, to control all of the land they wish to, does not mean the Zionists (not the same as Jews or Israelis) do not want all the 'holy land' for themselves.

And yet, they haven't even attempted to force Palestinians out. Their Arab population has far more rights than other Arab populations, and the ones they don't have are mainly related to security issues involving attacks from Arab states and terrorist groups. Israel has an independent court system, democratic rights, and a free press.

Again, I already said in my OP that the analogy was false. But hey, good for Israel for developing a nice liberal society. I know the debate in Israel is alot more open and honest than it is in North America.

Nonsense. The purpose behind a Jewish state is to protect Jews, not because of a sense of ethnic, religious or racial superiority, as the Nazis have. Furthermore, as I've already pointed out, they've made no effort at forcing out or eliminating their large Arab population.

They accommodate only enough to make sure their democracy is Jewish in character. What I said is not nonsense at all. This is the very reason why they refuse the right of return. They know that Arabs outnumber them, and in a democracy the Jewish character would eventually be drowned out. Israel admits as much. They know they have to control immigration to the point of making sure Jews outnumber others.

And this really touches on the comparison i made to Nazis. (one that i feel i must repeat, as in my OP, that is false). The Nazis were partly characterized by their insistence on a Aryan character, not unlike the state of Israel that also insists on a Jewish character. See, it is easy to make Nazi comparisons, just like our weak minded neo-conservative MP.

What do you think Quebecers would say if we told them we were going to move six million unilingual English speakers into the province? There'd be blood in the streets.

Of course, the Israeli situation is nowhere near comparable. The Palestinians hate the Israelis so much that they have collectively embraced the cult of the suicide martyr, gleefully celebrating their own children's deaths if they can take a few Israelis with them. And you're actually expecting Israel to bring millions of Palestinians inside their borders and make them citizens? And what happens if these millions of Palestinians join together with the rapidly burgeoning Arab Israeli population to form a majority? Another Holocaust, perhaps? The idea of bringing millions of Palestinians into Israel is utterly ludicrous: A recipe for instant civil war. The idea they even have the "right of return" is preposterous given barely 5% of them have ever seen the land they claim as theirs.

What do you think Arabs would do if we told them we were going to move hundreds of thousands of Jews into their land. Oh, and alot of you will have to give up your homes, businesses, and farms. Sorry, tough break.

The suicide bomber cult I find equally disgusting as the cruise missile, cluster bomb, collective punishment cult. Maybe even more disgusting, since it only requires a coward to drop a bomb from 30K feet, killing many more innocent people than your average suicide bomber, who actually has to sacrifice himself. I hate suicide bombers, but i dont pretend for a second that it is any worse than the clinical murder practiced by westerners. (speaking of nazi comparisons, which would of course be false).

This sentence just shows how ideological zealotry can not only wipe away logic, but eliminate the sense of morality that someone raised in a western democratic society ought to posess. What I read from this is that terrorism is perfectly acceptable to you as long as it's being perpetrated against people you don't like - ie, Israelis.

No, not at all. Its only that by any definition of terrorism i can find, Israel, the US, and any other world or regional power, now or in history, practices terrorism quite regularly, and with far deadlier consequences. What definition of terrorism do you use?

Morality is not a term i often associate with the western world, or any civilized nation for that matter. We, the global exploiters, are only concerned with consumerism and the harmful and unsustainable use of resources that make it possible. We are more than happy to exploit anybody for this purpose, as long as we do not have to see it up close and personal. We are far from a moral or just society. Everything we do is based on the theft of resources and the displacement of indigenous people. In North America we cannot even teach in our schools that we are responsible for the worst genocide in the history of the world. We gloss over it. Since when is the western world associated with 'morals'. We are some of the worst people to ever walk the earth, and what makes it worse is our complete failure to acknowledge we do anything wrong.

I see no reason why westerners ought to alter their beliefs to match those of poorly educated, unsophisticated religious fanatics.

You are obviously completely ignorant of these people.

If the common Arab supports terrorism then I'm not going to cry many tears about alienating them.

Then what are we doing in Afghanistan, if not attempting to win hearts and minds?

They are entirely dissimilar to Israel.

Ok you are right. Israel kills far more innocent people, and cannot achieve their stated goals. Hezbollah beat them on both counts.

Name one.

How about two, of the thousands.

Osama and Mustafa Muamar

They were kidnapped by the IDF the day before the Israeli soldier was kidnapped by Hamas.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_...d_by_israel.php

And you might argue there is evidence they were connected to Hamas. And I would argue there is stronger evidence that Galid Shalit was connected to the IDF.

I have a feeling that when you say "based on common definitions" you mean "Based on what my wacko friends think".

No. I am basing it on a definition of terrorism that the US military has used for years.

United States Department of Defense: the "calculated use of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of...m#United_States

I am basing it on definitions used by your "wacko friends", not mine. The US dept of defense is my enemy.

Sounds like there's a lot of hate in you. I can see why you'd be a Hezbollah supporter.

Im a supporter of any resistance against immoral and illegal occupation. So would you be, if you were honest. And yes, i am human, so there is hate in me. If you were honest, you would admit the same.

Maybe Iran takes immigrants. I'm sure you'd be very happy there.

Not at all. I hate Islamic theocracies. Are you suggesting Canada no longer tolerates dissent. (speaking of Nazi comparisons, which would be false, of course).

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Isreal does not occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, so what area is Hezbollah "liberating" if not the state of Isreal itself? Restored to the national sovereignty is bullroar as the West Bank is a no-mans land that Jordan has refused to recognize as its own.

Israel does not occupy Gaza or the West bank??????. Ok, you are obviously not informed enough to have this debate. (some people would debate Gaza, but the truth is israel never relinquished control of the resources and infrastructure).

And i still do not see in that paragraph where the destruction of Israel is stated.

Andrew

[Army Guy]

AndrewL:

Andrew you have made some bold statements perhaps you can back them-up with some facts, refs or links. Such as the one below.

Israel is an expansionist state, like Nazi germany. It displaces people in order to creeate room for a state that must be Jewish in Character.

Hezbollahs tactics are not in anyway disimilar to that of Israel. Israel kidnaps civilians and puts them in torture prisons without any trial, never to be heard from again. Hezbollah merely captures soldiers.

And what of Samir Al-Kuntar, Marwan Barghouthi, Nasim nesser, i suppose they never recieved a trial. Never to be heard of again, lst time i heard of that in fact they all had they own web sites. Can the Hezzbullah say the same of the 2 soldiers, when was the last time we heard from them.

So there was been trials and they have been heard from constantly. In fact you bring no proof of your comments.

Israel kills civilians and destroys their homes and businesses in order to punish them for supporting Hezbollah, Hezbollah launches rockets against Israeli civilians in order to punish them for supporting zionism, illegal settlements, and the occupation of stolen lands.

Again bold statements which you have provided no refs or links or proof. Just here say.

There is absolutely no comparison of Hezbollah to the Nazis. Hezbollah calls for the elimination of the zionist entity, (contrary to popular western stupidity, the terms Zionist entity and Israeli state are not synonymous).

But they are one in the same and one can not exist without the other. (contrary to ME stupidity) it is a play on words to allow the hezbullah to step back and not be racist or caught up in the idea that they want to eliminate the entire state of Israel just the zionist entity, which would include everyman,women and child.

.

below is taken from the Hezbullah manifesto under the heading the necessity for the destruction of Israel, pretty much self explanatory, It's not under the heading of Zionist entity, but destruction of Israel.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel

We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_Manifesto"

I knew when the conservatives took power in Canada I would have to be subjected to these asinine statements from ignorant rural bumpkins of the conservative base. Whats even worse is one day we have Bush calling them islamo-fascists (obvious nazi reference) and a few days later the canucks are making the nazi comparison as well. Im sure they are in cahoots on this nonsense. It is shocking to me that intellectually challenged canadians might latch on to this and actually go forth believing we are in an epic battle against nazis. Politicians just use these terms to gain political capital, and if they can paint the image that we are fighting nazis im sure the typical National Post readership will believe it. This is sad. I used to love this country, but as every day goes by i lose more and more respect for Canadas position in the world.

And here i thought it was Canadians making bold statements that the Israelis state or entity should be obliterated. based on fictious claims.

Another good thing about being a Rual Canadian bumpkin is i'm free to choose to do almost anything, including denouncing my canadian citizenship, and moving to another country, like lebanon. but then again i don't think the Hezbullah has alot of support programs ,that young people with alot of time on thier hands can take advantage off.

[August1991]

Morality is not a term i often associate with the western world, or any civilized nation for that matter. We, the global exploiters, are only concerned with consumerism and the harmful and unsustainable use of resources that make it possible. We are more than happy to exploit anybody for this purpose, as long as we do not have to see it up close and personal. We are far from a moral or just society. Everything we do is based on the theft of resources and the displacement of indigenous people. In North America we cannot even teach in our schools that we are responsible for the worst genocide in the history of the world. We gloss over it. Since when is the western world associated with 'morals'. We are some of the worst people to ever walk the earth, and what makes it worse is our complete failure to acknowledge we do anything wrong.

I have rarely seen such a stark expression of self-hatred.

Andrew, the world does not revolve around North America and what it does. Rather, the world is a complex and fascinating place. North America is less important than what you imply. But to understand that, you'll have to remove your self-important glasses and see the world through the eyes of a non North American.

[Wilber]

It's ironic that if the rest of the world hadn't failed so abysmally when it came to respecting the human rights of Jews, culminating in Hitler's atrocities, there would have been no reason to give them a homeland where they would be able to protect themselves.

Riverwind is right when he says that Israel has no incentive to return land when there are neighboring countries and organizations openly committed to Israel's destruction. On the contrary, there is an incentive to occupy more land to act as a buffer for when they are attacked, as they have been told they will be.

[Argus]

Not by any conceivable stretch of logic.

Yes it is conceivable. My intent was to show how easy the Nazi label can be applied, whether to Israel or Hezbollah.

The real determining factor in most people's eyes is Jew-hatred, or something similar directed at another race, religion, or ethnic group. We can see the Jew-hatred of Hezbollah front and centre. We see no similar and obvious paralell from Israel.

Israel is a military powerhouse. If it wanted to, it could fairly easily take over nearby countries like Lebanon and Syria. But it hasn't. For that matter, the obvious Nazi answer to the Palestinians is the "final solution". Israel should have been slaughtering them by the millions. I mean, they've been in complete control for over fifty years. A more humane method, but one they still haven't done, is to force them over the borders into Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They should also be forcing Israeli Arabs out. A ruthless government would have done that long since. A Nazi government most certainly would have done it long ago.

Osama and Mustafa Muamar

They were kidnapped by the IDF the day before the Israeli soldier was kidnapped by Hamas.

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_...d_by_israel.php

And you might argue there is evidence they were connected to Hamas. And I would argue there is stronger evidence that Galid Shalit was connected to the IDF.

You seem incapable of wrapping your mind around the difference between a state grabbing a pair of terrorists who are planning attacks on its people, and a terrorist group grabbing a couple of soldiers guarding a border post. In fact, Israel should not have to grab Hezbollah terrorists. If Lebanon weren't a failed state such people would have been arrested by the Lebanese police for planning terrorist attacks on Lebanon's neighbour.

In North America we cannot even teach in our schools that we are responsible for the worst genocide in the history of the world. We gloss over it. Since when is the western world associated with 'morals'. We are some of the worst people to ever walk the earth, and what makes it worse is our complete failure to acknowledge we do anything wrong.

We didn't do anything wrong, really, not by the standards of the day. All peoples, including aboriginals, killed their neighbours for their land. That's just the way the world was. Your silly guilt trip is merely due to the fact we were better at it than others. I should think you'd be grateful for that.

Don't think for a second that if the Africans or the Azteks or the Chinese had been better at making war than we were that they'd have been one bit more charitable to our ancestors than ours were to theirs. In all likelihood, they'd have been worse.

In any event, we have progressed socially and culturally. Much of the third world has not.

I said clearly the analogy was false in my original post. I guess you are just choosing to ignore that.

Well if the analogy fails so easily why make it? You are attempting to demonstrate the analogy would work for Israel as easily as it does for Hezbollah, yet clearly it does not.

But in the end we cannot deny that Israel would not exist unless it was expansionist. Just because they do not have the means, contrary to your opinion, to control all of the land they wish to,

Sure they do. They just have to use levels of violence necessary to ethnically cleanse the lands they occupy. You think the world wouldn't stand for it? They did nothing in Yugoslavia until the Americans finally lost patience and starting bombing Serbs. I rather doubt they'd do the same to Israel. For all the UN's bitching and moaning there is little they could do if Israel forced all the Palestinians out.

Nonsense. The purpose behind a Jewish state is to protect Jews, not because of a sense of ethnic, religious or racial superiority, as the Nazis have. Furthermore, as I've already pointed out, they've made no effort at forcing out or eliminating their large Arab population.

They accommodate only enough to make sure their democracy is Jewish in character. What I said is not nonsense at all. This is the very reason why they refuse the right of return. They know that Arabs outnumber them, and in a democracy the Jewish character would eventually be drowned out.

I don't think they're as worried about Jewish character being drowned out as they are Jewish babies being drowned in bathtubs. The Arabs have made it very clear their undying hatred for Israel knows no practical limits. They will kill Jews any way they can. Hardly surprising the Israelis don't want to import mililons of Arabs into their land, much less let them take it over.

And this really touches on the comparison i made to Nazis. (one that i feel i must repeat, as in my OP, that is false). The Nazis were partly characterized by their insistence on a Aryan character, not unlike the state of Israel that also insists on a Jewish character.

But the Nazis empthasis on Aryan character was elitist, while the Jews just feel that unless they're in control they're at the mercy of "others" who have, for centuries, turned on them again and again.

See, it is easy to make Nazi comparisons, just like our weak minded neo-conservative MP.

Execept that his works and yours doesn't.

What definition of terrorism do you use?

The one where you set off bombs in markets and community centres in hopes of killing as many people as possible.

Morality is not a term i often associate with the western world, or any civilized nation for that matter. We, the global exploiters, are only concerned with consumerism and the harmful and unsustainable use of resources that make it possible. We are more than happy to exploit anybody for this purpose, as long as we do not have to see it up close and personal. We are far from a moral or just society. Everything we do is based on the theft of resources and the displacement of indigenous people.

Why do you suppose we give so many billions in charity to the third world then? Not merely our governments, but individuals through religious and other charitable organizations? How are we less moral than people in some third world pesthole, who claw for a living to the extent they will steal or cheat from anyone they can in order to make an extra buck?

I am basing it on definitions used by your "wacko friends", not mine. The US dept of defense is my enemy.

Okay, then you are basing it on wacko interpretations of that definition.

Im a supporter of any resistance against immoral and illegal occupation.

But Israel is not occupying any Lebanese land. The UN itself has certified that Israel has completely pulled out and met all the requirements of UN resolutions. It is Lebanon and Hezbollah which have failed to meet their obligations.

[jbg]

Argus, you make good points. Not that many people want to address them.