Liberty or security

Melanie_ · August 18, 2006

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscribe...p-4209928c.html

A Winnipeg doctor was removed from an airplane in Denver because a drunken passenger accused him of being a terrorist. Apparently this was because the doctor, a Muslim, had asked his friend to switch seats so he could have more privacy for his evening prayers. The plane left without him and his two travelling companions, even though they were almost immediately cleared of posing any threat.

The Transportation Security Administration guy said the airline had over-reacted, which seems to be the case. I think they could have had the plane wait while they checked out the accusation, and the guy who made the accusation should have been delayed as well, to verify his story.

This is just an example of how liberty and security are clashing as paranoia continues to grow. They are both tightly held values, both in Canada and the US, but one will eventually have to take primacy over the other. Which one would you give up, in order to have the other?

jdobbin · August 18, 2006

Just another example of fear out there.

The Free Press had a story early this week about how one airline evacuated a plane that had some smoke. The flight attendants were shrieking for the passengers to get out and that led to people being trampled along with some broken bones.

Melanie_ · August 18, 2006

Actually, I thought that article was more about Bartley Kives being inconvenienced than anything else. He tends to whine in his columns.

But back to the first story - do you see a conflict in values as these fears become more pronounced? Does security trump liberty?

mcqueen625 · August 18, 2006

Actually, I thought that article was more about Bartley Kives being inconvenienced than anything else. He tends to whine in his columns.
But back to the first story - do you see a conflict in values as these fears become more pronounced? Does security trump liberty?

I would much sooner have them error on the side of caution than to let anything go, and possibly have people die because of lax security. Sorry if it offends those of teh Muslim faith, but when you have people right here in Canada claiming that a terrorist organization like Hezbollah is the saviour of the Lebanese, then we definitely have a problem. I wonder how much money is being sent to these recognized terrorist organizations by people of Middle Eastern decent who claim to love Canada. I'm sorry, but they cannot play on both sides of the fence. Either they are Canadian period, or they are some kind of hypenated Canadian, which to me if they want to hypenate their citizenship, I feel compelled to ask why they came here in the first place.

jbg · August 18, 2006

This is just an example of how liberty and security are clashing as paranoia continues to grow. They are both tightly held values, both in Canada and the US, but one will eventually have to take primacy over the other. Which one would you give up, in order to have the other?

My response is that this "doctor" would be well placed, in the community, to speak out against the dangerous and senseless elements, and that this inconvenience should be a motivating force.

Melanie_ · August 18, 2006

My response is that this "doctor" would be well placed, in the community, to speak out against the dangerous and senseless elements, and that this inconvenience should be a motivating force.

Why do you put doctor in quotation marks? Do you have some reason to doubt his medical training? And how do you know where he is placed in any community? These are assumptions you are making based on what - the same thing the drunken passenger based his assumptions and accusations on?

Argus · August 18, 2006

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscribe...p-4209928c.html

Since I'm not a member of their email spam collecting club, I can't read the article. I see no reference to this in any real news media. Perhaps they simply made it up.

Melanie_ · August 19, 2006

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscribe...p-4209928c.html

Since I'm not a member of their email spam collecting club, I can't read the article. I see no reference to this in any real news media. Perhaps they simply made it up.

Sorry, I didn't realize the link didn't take you to the story. But Argus, your snottiness is unnecessary.

Argus · August 19, 2006

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscribe...p-4209928c.html

Since I'm not a member of their email spam collecting club, I can't read the article. I see no reference to this in any real news media. Perhaps they simply made it up.

Sorry, I didn't realize the link didn't take you to the story. But Argus, your snottiness is unnecessary.

It wasn't directed at you. I simply loath the fact that so many newspapers are stupidly restricting their on-line content, as if it doesn't occur to them people will simply go elsewhere.

Melanie_ · August 19, 2006

Agreed.

jdobbin · August 19, 2006

Actually, I thought that article was more about Bartley Kives being inconvenienced than anything else. He tends to whine in his columns.
But back to the first story - do you see a conflict in values as these fears become more pronounced? Does security trump liberty?

He may in fact whine but the TSB is conducting an investigation into evacuation protocols. A few other people have testified that Jazz has been having its share of problems when it comes to safety and evacuation protocols.

I think security can support liberty if people have proper training. They are training TSA people in the States in observation. They look for things like rapid blinking, sweating, nervousness... personal behaviours.

I think that if you try to racially profile someone, the groups that are being profiled will change their profile. For example, if security is looking for single men, a terrorist organization might pair a man and a woman together for an assault. They will look for fair skinned people for an attack. They'll look for someone with no accent.

I think behavioural profiling has its problems too and could be folied as well but racial profiling is too limited a security procedure. Ultimately, you have to use a multi-pronged approach. And hopefully, you can stop any and all attacks.

jdobbin · August 19, 2006

My response is that this "doctor" would be well placed, in the community, to speak out against the dangerous and senseless elements, and that this inconvenience should be a motivating force.

What is this supposed to mean?

jdobbin · August 19, 2006

I would much sooner have them error on the side of caution than to let anything go, and possibly have people die because of lax security. Sorry if it offends those of teh Muslim faith, but when you have people right here in Canada claiming that a terrorist organization like Hezbollah is the saviour of the Lebanese, then we definitely have a problem. I wonder how much money is being sent to these recognized terrorist organizations by people of Middle Eastern decent who claim to love Canada. I'm sorry, but they cannot play on both sides of the fence. Either they are Canadian period, or they are some kind of hypenated Canadian, which to me if they want to hypenate their citizenship, I feel compelled to ask why they came here in the first place.

Some of the most recent arrests in Britain were 100% non-hyphenated, non-Middle Eastern, full citizens of Caucasion background. Not exactly something that you look for in a terrorist.

jbg · August 19, 2006

My response is that this "doctor" would be well placed, in the community, to speak out against the dangerous and senseless elements, and that this inconvenience should be a motivating force.

Why do you put doctor in quotation marks? Do you have some reason to doubt his medical training? And how do you know where he is placed in any community? These are assumptions you are making based on what - the same thing the drunken passenger based his assumptions and accusations on?

I put "doctor" in quotes to highlight my skepticism about the story. Most people of that standing would know that an airplane is a lousy place to want to do Muslim prayers, in this environment.

jdobbin · August 19, 2006

I put "doctor" in quotes to highlight my skepticism about the story. Most people of that standing would know that an airplane is a lousy place to want to do Muslim prayers, in this environment.

The Muslim faith allows for prayers to be done silently in an airplane seat to comply with airline regulations.

You'd be surprised at how many people you see praying on an aircraft.

If I thought it would help, I would have done it every time I flew Aeroflot.

Melanie_ · August 19, 2006

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/20...r-winnipeg.html

Well, seeing as how the Winnipeg Free Press is not easily accessible, I tracked down some coverage of the story from CBC.

Drea · August 19, 2006

So now people who bow their heads down to pray whilst flying in an aircraft are suspect?

During particularly rough turbulence this would include most all passengers!

The drunk should have to pay the doctor for his added expense. He should also be forced to publicly apologize as should the airline.

Leafless · August 19, 2006

I'm sorry, but they cannot play on both sides of the fence. Either they are Canadian period, or they are some kind of hypenated Canadian, which to me if they want to hypenate their citizenship, I feel compelled to ask why they came here in the first place.

Sorry mcqueen625 but Canada allows dual citizenship and gleefully promotes official multiculturalism.

If you want to question Canadian nationalism blame TRUDEAU and the LIBERALS who have invented the criteria necessary to keep Quebecers and immigrants of foreign nationalities HYPHENATED Canadians.

And Melaine your initial question 'does security trump liberty' is really inconsequential as if you ask yourself 'how free is free' you should realize freedoms come to end when detrimental actions that endanger the majority take priority over previous assumed freedoms to persons, groups etc. abusing that privilege.

Melanie_ · August 19, 2006

And Melaine your initial question 'does security trump liberty' is really inconsequential as if you ask yourself 'how free is free' you should realize freedoms come to end when detrimental actions that endanger the majority take priority over previous assumed freedoms to persons, groups etc. abusing that privilege.

But what did this guy do to abuse the privilege? Be born brown? As far as I can see he didn't engage in any actions that endangered anyone, but his personal freedom to go about his business was overruled by a drunken accusation based on ignorance.

For you, it seems the answer is security of the group is more important than individual liberties.

Argus · August 20, 2006

Some of the most recent arrests in Britain were 100% non-hyphenated, non-Middle Eastern, full citizens of Caucasion background. Not exactly something that you look for in a terrorist.

Ahm, you have some cites for that?

Argus · August 20, 2006

So now people who bow their heads down to pray whilst flying in an aircraft are suspect?

Unfortunately --- yes. If they're Muslims anyway.

Argus · August 20, 2006

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/20...r-winnipeg.html
Well, seeing as how the Winnipeg Free Press is not easily accessible, I tracked down some coverage of the story from CBC.

Well, it sounds like the captain was an idiot, and will presumably be reprimanded by his airline, which ought to offer the doctor an apology and compensation. United's excuse is no excuse at all. You DON'T take every allegation seriously, not when it has such trivial support and evidence. If the same idiot passenger claimed one of the stewardesses was an alien would the captain immediately put her off the plane, too?

jdobbin · August 20, 2006

Ahm, you have some cites for that?

Right there on good old FOX.

19 of the 24 arrested were of Pakistani descent with Muslim names.

The rest were British born, with English names and Caucasion. Somes were travelling under their old names although they have adopted Muslim names.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207898,00.html

Hard to profile when they look like white.

Abdul Waheed (formerly Don Stewart-Whyte) , born ca. 1986. Son of a former Tory agent, half brother of model Heather Stewart-Whyte, a successful model who lives in North London. She has said that she has never met her half-brother.

Umar Islam (formerly Brian Young), born 23 April 1978 was a ticket inspector on London buses durring the 7 July 2005 London bombings when he helped search for bombs on other buses and assisted victims of the Tavistock Square bus bomb to safety.

Ibrahim Savant (formerly Oliver Savant), born 19 December 1980, (Walthamstow)

jbg · August 20, 2006

No one has responded to my idea of other airlines doing what El Al does, which is asking random passengers to answer a series of questions rapidly about where they are going, why they are travelling, who they're traveling with/meeting, etc. They may also ask some questions about either the departure or arrival cities in order to see if they have plans upon arrival (hint, people who expect to be dead won't have hotel reservations).

Also, why not air marshals on every plane?

jdobbin · August 20, 2006

No one has responded to my idea of other airlines doing what El Al does, which is asking random passengers to answer a series of questions rapidly about where they are going, why they are travelling, who they're traveling with/meeting, etc. They may also ask some questions about either the departure or arrival cities in order to see if they have plans upon arrival (hint, people who expect to be dead won't have hotel reservations).
Also, why not air marshals on every plane?

That is what TSA is doing along with their observation training. It was on ABC News earlier this week.

Profile bahaviour, question passenger, search.

I think the amount of air flights per day answers that question. At Norad headquarters, they track passenger flights and there are thousands of red dots out there. How many marshals do you think might be? They already have 40,000+ TSA people.