Are the bloodthirsty Israelies out of control?

[cybercoma]

Israel is doing them [Lebanon] a favour.

Oh yeah, let me do you a favor and bomb your house!?!

Here's the thing with that...

Israel dropped flyers on that town the day before, warning everyone to evacuate. Israel also has imagery of rockets being launched from in or around those apartment complexes. I can't remember who it was at this point, but someone from Israel made the suggestion that Hezbollah actually held those people up in that apartment complex.

[geoffrey]

Cyber,

I agree that Israel is taking some steps to limit civilian casualties, but many of their actions are counter productive in that regard. Bombing 90% of bridges makes it really hard to get out of some areas. Bombing convoys of cars as they escape doesn't help much either. Taking out the airport so that people can only be brought out by ship wasn't in the innocent everyday Lebanese person's interest.

So yes, Israel is taking steps that look good in the media. But in practicality, they fail miserably.

The civilian count is much to high on both sides. Hezbollah needs to stop and be disarmed with force. But your not going to disarm an underground terrorist organization by bombing neighbourhoods. You might over time, but the cost would be hundreds of thousands in lives and the destruction of what used to be refered to as the Paris of the middle east.

It's unfortunate that the world didn't see this potential issue... a country with a weak armed forces (Lebanon) that doesn't have the capacity to eliminate a terrorist sect in their midst. Maybe Hezbollah would have been a better target than Saddam?

[Army Guy]

Geoffrey:

I agree that Israel is taking some steps to limit civilian casualties, but many of their actions are counter productive in that regard. Bombing 90% of bridges makes it really hard to get out of some areas. Bombing convoys of cars as they escape doesn't help much either. Taking out the airport so that people can only be brought out by ship wasn't in the innocent everyday Lebanese person's interest

Those actions are to contain the Hezbullah, make it very difficult for them to be resupplied, to move around etc.. The bombings of car convoys I agree with you they are counter productive to everthing.

So yes, Israel is taking steps that look good in the media. But in practicality, they fail miserably

If one was to look at a Sat image of these towns one would find that selective targets have be destroyed, entire cities and towns have not been razed to the ground, as the hezbullah would suggest..

The civilian count is much to high on both sides. Hezbollah needs to stop and be disarmed with force. But your not going to disarm an underground terrorist organization by bombing neighbourhoods. You might over time, but the cost would be hundreds of thousands in lives and the destruction of what used to be refered to as the Paris of the middle east.

Compared to what, Compared to the dresden bombings during WWII, compared to the Cambodian killings, compared to the genicide in Rwanda, Dafur etc. ( there are many dozens more ) Why is it that a few hundred lebanonese die and the world screams , and kicks it feet demanding that these Jewish killers be stopped NOW...They've gone to far...

Could it be that the Hezbullah has a highly tuned PR department, and is posting pictures of the dead on every media network available...And we in the west get sick to our stomachs at the sight of a dozens dead lebanonese children, So WHY this cause, why are we in the west so concerned and demanding imediate action ? When the west sat down a debated for weeks on end over the Rwanda crisies, hell we are still debating Dafur.

It's unfortunate that the world didn't see this potential issue... a country with a weak armed forces (Lebanon) that doesn't have the capacity to eliminate a terrorist sect in their midst. Maybe Hezbollah would have been a better target than Saddam?

Perhaps we should see the problem for what it really is, most of Lebanons military (est strength just over 70,000) is based in the north. WHY is that, to fend off Syria, NO, To control the northern christian population perhaps, or is it that the south already has a recongized militant miltia called the Hezbullah to defend lebanons southern borders ? I say recongized because that is what the government of lebanon has stated, So why is it that a recongized militia of lebanon allowed to wage war with Israel, and then act shocked when Israel decides to punish a country that has attacked them. When lebanon offically recongized them as a military force there actions became thier actions of lebanon, with the support of it's government, it's people.

Can't have your cake and eat it to, You can't have a recongized military force engage in terrorist activities then claim they have no control over them... They (The Governmant) have the miliatry force and capibilities to police them, they just perfer not to, made clear by thier absolute lack of action, be it for not wanting a civil war, or betting that Israel would not re-occupy them.

Lebanon has made a clear choice and have publically stated they would defend thier Hezbullah brothers if Israel invaded.

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[Figleaf]

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Edited July 21, 2007 by Figleaf

[cybercoma]

Cyber,

I agree that Israel is taking some steps to limit civilian casualties, but many of their actions are counter productive in that regard. Bombing 90% of bridges makes it really hard to get out of some areas. Bombing convoys of cars as they escape doesn't help much either. Taking out the airport so that people can only be brought out by ship wasn't in the innocent everyday Lebanese person's interest.

So yes, Israel is taking steps that look good in the media. But in practicality, they fail miserably.

The civilian count is much to high on both sides. Hezbollah needs to stop and be disarmed with force. But your not going to disarm an underground terrorist organization by bombing neighbourhoods. You might over time, but the cost would be hundreds of thousands in lives and the destruction of what used to be refered to as the Paris of the middle east.

It's unfortunate that the world didn't see this potential issue... a country with a weak armed forces (Lebanon) that doesn't have the capacity to eliminate a terrorist sect in their midst. Maybe Hezbollah would have been a better target than Saddam?

I was going to reply, but Army Guy did a fine job of going into detail about all thle points I would've hit on.

[Black Dog]

The latter tried to be "understanding" of the feeling of the "indigenous" people and gave Transjordan to them. Were they satisfied? Did creating Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates out of the defunct Ottoman Empire satisfy them? Will giving them an independent "Palestine"out of the so-called "Occupied Territories" satisfy them? Highly unlikely. If the Arabs push the Jews into the sea, what's next? Each other? Europe?

Gee, you mean an foreign imperial power or two's creation of arbitrary borders that completely disregarded the ethno-religious/tribal make up of the population and the very history of the region somehow proved unsatisfactory? The mind boggles, it does.

Do they have any plans for the economic development of these areas? Doubtful.

Ah, I see. Fuck human rights, fuck self-determination: I wana see your business plan?

This problem must be solved, with extreme prejudice

So jbg, what you're saying is there needs to be a Final Solution to the Arab Question?

[jbg]

The latter tried to be "understanding" of the feeling of the "indigenous" people and gave Transjordan to them. Were they satisfied? Did creating Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates out of the defunct Ottoman Empire satisfy them? Will giving them an independent "Palestine"out of the so-called "Occupied Territories" satisfy them? Highly unlikely. If the Arabs push the Jews into the sea, what's next? Each other? Europe?

#1 - Gee, you mean an foreign imperial power or two's creation of arbitrary borders that completely disregarded the ethno-religious/tribal make up of the population and the very history of the region somehow proved unsatisfactory? The mind boggles, it does.

Do they have any plans for the economic development of these areas? Doubtful.

#2 - Ah, I see. Fuck human rights, fuck self-determination: I wana see your business plan?

This problem must be solved, with extreme prejudice

#3 - So jbg, what you're saying is there needs to be a Final Solution to the Arab Question?

Response to #1 - What about the ethno-religious/tribal make up of the Jewish people? Many were exiled from the Holy Land by the Romans, though some Jewish presence always remained. Then, they came back when the ethno-religious/tribal make up of Europe made continued Jewish existence doubtful. Are the only rights that are sacred the rights of Arabs to create multiple satrapies for the benefit of their rulers?

Response to #2 - Isn't the right to self-determination limited by the right of neighboring countries to be safe from incursions from the other country? If Lebanon is unwilling or unable to guarantee Israel's safety why should it fare any differently from Mexico when it allowed Pancho Villa's bandits to attack Texas?

Response to #3 - I never advocated that. That is horrible.

[cybercoma]

Ah, I see. Fuck human rights, fuck self-determination: I wana see your business plan?

Supporting terrorism and human rights at the same time....classy.

[jbg]

Ah, I see. Fuck human rights, fuck self-determination: I wana see your business plan?

Supporting terrorism and human rights at the same time....classy.

Thanks for reminding me of the end of my response to #2. I was going to say that an independent country like the US or Australia pays its own way. Most of the "independent" countries post WW-II are basket cases that exist on international aid, which mostly enriches their rulers.