Afghanistan

[jbg]

3 days in a row of Internet casualty counting?

[jdobbin]

3 days in a row of Internet casualty counting?

Now called the forgotten war in America.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial...nistan_ignored/

[jdobbin]

Three Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[Argus]

Three Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

2005

Canadians must prepare for casualties as Canada's contingent in the volatile southern region of Afghanistan grows, Defence Minister Bill Graham warned Thursday.

The army's move from Kabul, the relatively stable capital, to the heart of Taliban country boosts the odds of Canadian deaths and injuries, Graham pointed out in a speech designed to put the Canadian public on notice. A small Canadian force of about 250 troops is working in Kandahar right now with about 1,000 more set to deploy early next year.

"Canadians should have no illusions," Graham told reporters following a speech to the International Relations Council of Montreal.

"This is a very complex, very demanding and quite dangerous mission. Our troops recognize they are going into a more dangerous mission than Kabul. It is more dangerous."

Defence Minister Bill Graham on Afghanistan

[jdobbin]

2005

Canadians must prepare for casualties as Canada's contingent in the volatile southern region of Afghanistan grows, Defence Minister Bill Graham warned Thursday.

The army's move from Kabul, the relatively stable capital, to the heart of Taliban country boosts the odds of Canadian deaths and injuries, Graham pointed out in a speech designed to put the Canadian public on notice. A small Canadian force of about 250 troops is working in Kandahar right now with about 1,000 more set to deploy early next year.

"Canadians should have no illusions," Graham told reporters following a speech to the International Relations Council of Montreal.

"This is a very complex, very demanding and quite dangerous mission. Our troops recognize they are going into a more dangerous mission than Kabul. It is more dangerous."

Defence Minister Bill Graham on Afghanistan

And the Liberals probably would have been falling in the polls over Afghanistan as well had they been in power today.

One thing to note though is that the committment to Afghanistan had an ending under Graham. He set a deadline for a reason. Do you remember what it was?

[Argus]

And the Liberals probably would have been falling in the polls over Afghanistan as well had they been in power today.

First, I don't think the press would have been paying nearly as much attention if the Liberals were in power. As Mackenzie said in the cite, Canada lost 26 troops in Yugoslavia without anyone shedding a tear. The government downplayed (and sometimes outright lied about) casualties and the media were more than happy to cooperate. There was no coverage of solemn ceremonies in Yugoslavia, no coverage of caskets coming home, no coverage of weepy families and funerals. None.

One thing to note though is that the committment to Afghanistan had an ending under Graham. He set a deadline for a reason. Do you remember what it was?

He didn't set any deadlines. He set the length of the mission. Just as is always done in these things, just as exists now. Sometimes those missions are continued and renewed, as the one in Yugoslavia was, repeatedly, as the one in Cyrprus was, repeatedly, as this one was.

[jdobbin]

First, I don't think the press would have been paying nearly as much attention if the Liberals were in power. As Mackenzie said in the cite, Canada lost 26 troops in Yugoslavia without anyone shedding a tear. The government downplayed (and sometimes outright lied about) casualties and the media were more than happy to cooperate. There was no coverage of solemn ceremonies in Yugoslavia, no coverage of caskets coming home, no coverage of weepy families and funerals. None.

He didn't set any deadlines. He set the length of the mission. Just as is always done in these things, just as exists now. Sometimes those missions are continued and renewed, as the one in Yugoslavia was, repeatedly, as the one in Cyrprus was, repeatedly, as this one was.

Show me the cite that says there were no funerals shown or flags flown at half mast. The Liberals were questioned about the war but the fractured right wing was next to useless in opposition. What were Harper's thoughts on it back then? Zip.

Lewis MacKenize was one of the people responsible for getting the message out about what the forces were doing in Yugolslavia. He had already been told that he didn't do a proper job in Somalia. He can't blame the media for his own actions at keeping information to himself.

http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol4/v4c31e.htm

He had no problem criticizing Dallaire.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Pag...orce_login=true

He should take one of the chin himself for his partisan comments. But what can you expect from a failed Conservative candidate?

And Graham called the mission a deadline as did the forces. It has already been cited in this very thread.

[jbg]

Three Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Jdobin, why not give a daily tally of murders/casualties under Taliban and under Saddam Hussein as a basis for comparison. I am tired of people who want the flag to go up and down like a toilet seat every time some soldier dies in order to make teh war on terror politically untenable. If you want to give up, why don't you move to some garden spot like Saudi Arabia. And, oh, declare your religion, either practiced or ancestral, in a loud voice as you walk around Riyadh or Mecca.

[jdobbin]

Jdobin, why not give a daily tally of murders/casualties under Taliban and under Saddam Hussein as a basis for comparison. I am tired of people who want the flag to go up and down like a toilet seat every time some soldier dies in order to make teh war on terror politically untenable. If you want to give up, why don't you move to some garden spot like Saudi Arabia. And, oh, declare your religion, either practiced or ancestral, in a loud voice as you walk around Riyadh or Mecca.

There you go again saying the war on terror included Saddam Hussein. That argument is not working anymore. The message keeps changing about Iraq and the American people are getting tired of it. It is 10 weeks to the elections and people aren't going to buy your argument that it is about terror anymore. And they won't be diverted about starting a new war with Iran either. Or North Korea. Or Syria. Or wherever Bush has in mind for the next attack in the "war on terror".

As far as Afghanistan goes, the new regime under Karzai is showing signs of corruption that might cripple it from ever asserting control over the southern provinces. The Pentagon says that the government could collapse because the U.S. pretty much much its support in the south by turning a blind eye to the trade.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/192040/

The U.S. put NATO in its present situation by going to Iraq and forgetting about Afghanistan this long. Moreover, they have let drug lords work in their midst so that they could track Taliban. Now the Taliban uses the renewed drug trade to kill NATO troops.

The U.S. is the one the left the toilet seat up. Next time, please flush instead of leaving a mess to clean up.

[jdobbin]

American aircraft drops bomb on Canadians.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/04092006/2/nati...fghanistan.html

There was a similar incident last month as well. Fortunately, the bomb hit soft earth there were only injuries.

This time one soldier was killed, the fifth in two days.

Make that six. A British soldier was killed in a suicide bombing in Kabul.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5311464.stm

[Wilber]

The U.S. put NATO in its present situation by going to Iraq and forgetting about Afghanistan this long. Moreover, they have let drug lords work in their midst so that they could track Taliban. Now the Taliban uses the renewed drug trade to kill NATO troops.

This much I agree with, the Americans consentrated on the wrong country. Instead of finishing the right war (Afghanistan) which it may very well could have had the Americans remained commited to it, they blundered into Iraq and now seem incapable of winning either one. Unfotunately their committed NATO allies such as Canada don't have the capacity to take up the slack in Afghanistan.

The latest "friendly fire" incident once again points out Canada's inability to provide air support for its own army.

[jdobbin]

Unfotunately their committed NATO allies such as Canada don't have the capacity to take up the slack in Afghanistan.

The latest "friendly fire" incident once again points out Canada's inability to provide air support for its own army.

It seems we're fighting the battles that the U.S. didn't. Even the Pentagon says the poppy trade is out of control.

[Argus]

American aircraft drops bomb on Canadians.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/04092006/2/nati...fghanistan.html

There was a similar incident last month as well. Fortunately, the bomb hit soft earth there were only injuries.

This time one soldier was killed, the fifth in two days.

Make that six. A British soldier was killed in a suicide bombing in Kabul.

"What you have here is a population that has been so long distanced from war that it has really no internal frame of reference on how you go about dealing with the fact that in war people get killed," said Brian MacDonald, a retired artillery colonel.

"As a consequence, there is then a very powerful reaction on each individual death.

"The actual casualty rates that we have been suffering by historic perspectives are quite light, but people don't know that because they have no personal yardstick against which to measure it."

Canadians don't understand casualties

[Argus]

Unfotunately their committed NATO allies such as Canada don't have the capacity to take up the slack in Afghanistan.

The latest "friendly fire" incident once again points out Canada's inability to provide air support for its own army.

It seems we're fighting the battles that the U.S. didn't. Even the Pentagon says the poppy trade is out of control.

Fires are always out of control - until they're under control. But when a fire is out of control the Fire department doesn't turn and run away, it fights the fire until it brings it under control.

[jdobbin]

"What you have here is a population that has been so long distanced from war that it has really no internal frame of reference on how you go about dealing with the fact that in war people get killed," said Brian MacDonald, a retired artillery colonel.

"As a consequence, there is then a very powerful reaction on each individual death.

"The actual casualty rates that we have been suffering by historic perspectives are quite light, but people don't know that because they have no personal yardstick against which to measure it."

Canadians don't understand casualties

The casualties aren't something in isolation. The corruption of the Karzai government, the Pakistan factor and sectrian violence are all things to think about.

Comparing this to World War 2 by casualties makes this war look small. Looking at the timeline needed to win this battle makes World War 2 look small.

[jdobbin]

Fires are always out of control - until they're under control. But when a fire is out of control the Fire department doesn't turn and run away, it fights the fire until it brings it under control.

Seems this fire was kept under control by allowing poppies to grow.

[Argus]

Fires are always out of control - until they're under control. But when a fire is out of control the Fire department doesn't turn and run away, it fights the fire until it brings it under control.

Seems this fire was kept under control by allowing poppies to grow.

Crime was way down in Germany during the Nazis time. Then, after it was liberated, after the curfews and firing squads went away, crime soared.

The Taliban took the position that drugs were evil, and executed anyone and everyone they thought might be involved in growing them. Is that what you think we should be doing over there?

Clearly, in a time of war, while hearts and minds are being wooed, drug growing flourishes. Incidentally, the heaviest production is in the south of Afghanistan, an area where NATO only recently expanded into to push out the Taliban (who changed their mind on drugs when they needed allies - showing just how devoted they were to their ideals).

[Argus]

"What you have here is a population that has been so long distanced from war that it has really no internal frame of reference on how you go about dealing with the fact that in war people get killed," said Brian MacDonald, a retired artillery colonel.

"As a consequence, there is then a very powerful reaction on each individual death.

"The actual casualty rates that we have been suffering by historic perspectives are quite light, but people don't know that because they have no personal yardstick against which to measure it."

Canadians don't understand casualties

The casualties aren't something in isolation. The corruption of the Karzai government, the Pakistan factor and sectrian violence are all things to think about.

All third world governments are corrupt. That is particularly so where drugs are involved. There will always be corruption in the Afghanistan government. Always. Right now, in a land of poverty, with hundreds of millions of dollars in western aid flowing in, and opium flowing out, it would be impossible for there not to be corruption.

Comparing this to World War 2 by casualties makes this war look small. Looking at the timeline needed to win this battle makes World War 2 look small.

The point he was making was that people are gawping over a few casualties because they don't seem to get it that during war, people die. Casualties were inevitable. The Liberals told you that before we started. We lost ten dead in one night during Korea, and nobody panicked over it. Nobody called for us to run away. I think the real reason so many are uncomfortable is because they see it as an American mission, rather than a UN and NATO mission. And because they don't understand why we're even there.

[fellowtraveller]

Afghanistan exports drugs for a simple reason: it is all they have that is exchangeable for foreign currency.

There is no oil, few exportable minerals, no industry, an uneducated workforce and barely enough arable land to support a small population.

There is little or nothing to rebuild, no nascent economy waiting to be coaxed to full production.

If the West wants the country to reform itself into a modern democracy, they had best be prepared to have a strong presence indefinitely.

The Taliban took the position that drugs were evil, and executed anyone and everyone they thought might be involved in growing them. Is that what you think we should be doing over there?

Really? It was my understanding that the Taliban executions of drug growers were soley intended to control the trade and eliminate competition. Like all the tribal leaders, they needed the money badly.

[jbg]

If the West wants the country to reform itself into a modern democracy, they had best be prepared to have a strong presence indefinitely.

As it will be throughout the Islamic world. Self-determination is a dangerous self-delusion of the West. These "countries" cannot exist and/or be trusted on their own, any more than a rabid dog in your backyard can be trusted.

[jdobbin]

The point he was making was that people are gawping over a few casualties because they don't seem to get it that during war, people die. Casualties were inevitable. The Liberals told you that before we started. We lost ten dead in one night during Korea, and nobody panicked over it. Nobody called for us to run away. I think the real reason so many are uncomfortable is because they see it as an American mission, rather than a UN and NATO mission. And because they don't understand why we're even there.

Actually, the feeling of Canada once the armistice was signed was that Canada should not remain in Korea because we, along with the British, thought it would be a very long occupation along the the lines of Europe. The United States has remained decades later with a permanent force of 40-50,000 soldiers stationed. Canadian sentiment was that this wasn't going to be resolved so long as Korea was supported by China.

I think we might be seeing the same thing as long Pakistan supports the Taliban. A very long term occupation. Although this time, instead of a straight forward fight, we have to fight a low grade insurgency where insecurity is the rule of the day.

[Wilber]

Actually, the feeling of Canada once the armistice was signed was that Canada should not remain in Korea because we, along with the British, thought it would be a very long occupation along the the lines of Europe. The United States has remained decades later with a permanent force of 40-50,000 soldiers stationed. Canadian sentiment was that this wasn't going to be resolved so long as Korea was supported by China.

They were right, it has been a long occupation but someone had to do it or the North would have tried again. The American presence has provided the same result as their presence in Western Europe during the Cold War. Peace in the region.

[jbg]

They were right, it has been a long occupation but someone had to do it or the North would have tried again. The American presence has provided the same result as their presence in Western Europe during the Cold War. Peace in the region.

Exactly why the US and Israel are so reviled in much of the world. Some very brutal people are kept from the West's throat by US and/or Israeli troops. They do not enjoy the restrictions on their ability to kill and/or enslave the West.

[jdobbin]

They were right, it has been a long occupation but someone had to do it or the North would have tried again. The American presence has provided the same result as their presence in Western Europe during the Cold War. Peace in the region.

It is hard to say what would have happened if the U.S. had left after the armistice. The domino theory was used about Vietnam. It really didn't play out that way.

[jbg]

They were right, it has been a long occupation but someone had to do it or the North would have tried again. The American presence has provided the same result as their presence in Western Europe during the Cold War. Peace in the region.

It is hard to say what would have happened if the U.S. had left after the armistice. The domino theory was used about Vietnam. It really didn't play out that way.

I opposed staying in Viet Nam. However, shortly before Viet Nam fell, Comabodia fell. Shortly after, Laos fell, and Burma fell under hostile, though not necessarily Communist, control. Thailand held only because of the threat of military action by the US, as exemplified by the Mayaguez rescue. In short, our surrender was not as consequence free as you imply.