Afghanistan

[jdobbin]

Gee, the US and UK should use that line for Iraq. Victory!

Think Britain has already declared victory and will be out in what....a year from now?

[Army Guy]

The mission should not be extended beyond 2009 unless there is some evidence that Canada isn't going to be the sharp end of the stick for two more years.

Why does it matter on which end of the stick we are on ? Is it because we in combat and sustaining cas. I find that alittle concerning because, it is the soldiers that are doing the fighting and dying and they want to stay, and see this thru...

As for your comparison of Germany, Bosnia or Cyprus, there was not an ongoing insurgency in those countries year after year. Also, nation building in those countries was handled mostly by the people of those places themselves.

Perhaps Germany and Cyprus, were not good examples, But Bosina was still involved in a full blown war when UN first deployed. which continued for 2 or more years.

[jdobbin]

Why does it matter on which end of the stick we are on ? Is it because we in combat and sustaining cas. I find that alittle concerning because, it is the soldiers that are doing the fighting and dying and they want to stay, and see this thru...

Perhaps Germany and Cyprus, were not good examples, But Bosina was still involved in a full blown war when UN first deployed. which continued for 2 or more years.

Actually, I was thinking that in all previous wars fought by an alliance, troops were rotated off the front lines to keep them fresh. We have no nations who are our so-called allies who will relieve us in Kandahar. We are there for the duration.

Bosnia was indeed a full blown war for a time. It was not an insurgency.

[jdobbin]

NATO meeting suggests Afghan mission at risk.

"I have heard increasingly that the government has lost its momentum,'' he said.

"I can sense a tremendous deterioration in the standing of the government. Afghans are now universally talking about their disappointment with Karzai. Let's be honest with ourselves ... the government must succeed or else the Taliban will gain from it.''

Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay, also attending the conference, spoke about the fragility of the operation.

"While I don't want to sound alarmist, I think there is going to be a tipping point unless we are able to stabilize (southern Afghanistan, especially), unless we are able to get on with building the economy, rule of law and government institutions," MacKay said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The government is dropping in support because of the torture, the corruption and the incompetence.

[Argus]

NATO meeting suggests Afghan mission at risk.

"I have heard increasingly that the government has lost its momentum,'' he said.

"I can sense a tremendous deterioration in the standing of the government. Afghans are now universally talking about their disappointment with Karzai. Let's be honest with ourselves ... the government must succeed or else the Taliban will gain from it.''

Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay, also attending the conference, spoke about the fragility of the operation.

"While I don't want to sound alarmist, I think there is going to be a tipping point unless we are able to stabilize (southern Afghanistan, especially), unless we are able to get on with building the economy, rule of law and government institutions," MacKay said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The government is dropping in support because of the torture, the corruption and the incompetence.

The government is dropping in support because it isn't able to build schools, dig wells and repair roads while it's focusing so much resources on keeping your friends the Taliban from killing everyone.

[jdobbin]

The government is dropping in support because it isn't able to build schools, dig wells and repair roads while it's focusing so much resources on keeping your friends the Taliban from killing everyone.

Please refrain from the inflammatory personal rejoinders. Greg has warned people about that.

The Canadian public grows dubious about the success of the mission when it looks like our NATO allies are less than committed. They look at Pakistan and now Iran as a source for insurgency support and realize nothing is really being done to stop it. They see the unpopularity of the Karzai government and the corruption and torture.

If Canada is to succeed in Afghanistan, it will need a lot more support from NATO allies and a commitment from the Afghan government to not be a mini version of the government they replaced.

[scribblet]

Fortunately for the Taliban and their ilk, North Americans generally don't have a stomach for war. They know that count on it, and revel in it.

The Taliban are the enemies of the legitimate government of Afghanistan so really it is appropriate to turn them over to it.

[jdobbin]

Fortunately for the Taliban and their ilk, North Americans generally don't have a stomach for war. They know that count on it, and revel in it.

The Taliban are the enemies of the legitimate government of Afghanistan so really it is appropriate to turn them over to it.

The legitimate government of Afghanistan is deeply unpopular and the torture of detainees undermines support for the troops when they are out in the field.

Canadians are fine at war. What is hard is nation building in a country that as a matter of course has fought with itself over and over.

[ScottSA]

Oh dear, it looks like the Liberals knew all the time:

Crickum rink

[PolyNewbie]

Strange how they waited until the opium trade was practically elliminated by the Taliban before they started putting troops and tanks on the border and carrier in nearby waters. I guess its just another 9/11 coincidence that the heroine trade had been recently cut by 90 % and they already had the war machine there when 9/11 happened.

What other terrorist attacks is Afghanistan guilty of ?

[PolyNewbie]

Army guy: (re banks in place)You mean like Germany, or Japan...

Germany already had Western banks in place. I don't know about Japan, but the same banks were funding both sides of the European conflict. The wars since then have been alrgely fought to put the banks in place in other countries . Rockefeller admits to working against the interest of the USA and working to establish a global government in his own authorized autobiography. He is widely quoted from a CFR meeting as stating this global government will be run by international bankers.

This is all out in the open. You just have to look through books you can buy at Amazon.

[ScottSA]

Is there some way to more actively ignore Polly? I used to think he was a first year university student, but it's apparent that his critical thinking skills are at about a 10th grade level. Not to be offensive or anything, but wow...

[PolyNewbie]

Is there some way to more actively ignore Polly? I used to think he was a first year university student, but it's apparent that his critical thinking skills are at about a 10th grade level. Not to be offensive or anything, but wow...

Instead of shooting your mouth off why don't you actually say what you dissagree with? I have a copy of Rockefellers authorized autobiography right here. You should buy a book and read it.

No wonder your criticisms are always empty and stupid. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[weaponeer]

The government is dropping in support because it isn't able to build schools, dig wells and repair roads while it's focusing so much resources on keeping your friends the Taliban from killing everyone.

Please refrain from the inflammatory personal rejoinders. Greg has warned people about that.

The Canadian public grows dubious about the success of the mission when it looks like our NATO allies are less than committed. They look at Pakistan and now Iran as a source for insurgency support and realize nothing is really being done to stop it. They see the unpopularity of the Karzai government and the corruption and torture.

If Canada is to succeed in Afghanistan, it will need a lot more support from NATO allies and a commitment from the Afghan government to not be a mini version of the government they replaced.

jdobbin,

Our so called NATO allies have NEVER been committed to NATO or Afghanistan. I have worked with our "allies" for the last 19 years, they have never been there. They are not for the most part reliable even when they do show up. I can give countless examples, there heart is just not in it....

[jbg]

Oh dear, it looks like the Liberals knew all the time:

Crickum rink

I am shocked. Shocked.

I thought all governments agreed on the need to protect gentle Muslim Talibanists.

[Argus]

Oh dear, it looks like the Liberals knew all the time:

Crickum rink

I am shocked. Shocked.

I thought all governments agreed on the need to protect gentle Muslim Talibanists.

Not much of a surprise. This outrageous hypocrisy is becoming the hallmarks of the Liberal Party. It's the same as with the environment issue. While in office, they couldn't care less. Now here they are pounding desks, red faced with self righteousness and indignation, demanding action, condemning those who fail to act instantly.

"uh, reports? I don't remember seeing them. Uhm, no I uh, I can't recall the issue. Uh, no, was there torture? Oh, well, I certainly didn't know."

Typical bloody Liberals.

[jdobbin]

Our so called NATO allies have NEVER been committed to NATO or Afghanistan. I have worked with our "allies" for the last 19 years, they have never been there. They are not for the most part reliable even when they do show up. I can give countless examples, there heart is just not in it....

It makes me uneasy when I see even the Dutch not make an attempt to engage the Taliban. This was shown on CBC and CTV this week when they compared Canada's tactics and the rest of our allies.

It reminds me of Dieppe when someone thought it would be great for Canada to hit the beaches of France in force to see what would happen.

[weaponeer]

Our so called NATO allies have NEVER been committed to NATO or Afghanistan. I have worked with our "allies" for the last 19 years, they have never been there. They are not for the most part reliable even when they do show up. I can give countless examples, there heart is just not in it....

It makes me uneasy when I see even the Dutch not make an attempt to engage the Taliban. This was shown on CBC and CTV this week when they compared Canada's tactics and the rest of our allies.

It reminds me of Dieppe when someone thought it would be great for Canada to hit the beaches of France in force to see what would happen.

The Dutch army gives us pretty good artillery support and their Apache gunship helos are awesome, wish we had some. Their infantry do not go outside the wire too often, not by their choice, but by their gov't insruction.

The French and Italians are a walking disaster, always have been. Even in training ex's they are more of a pain than they are worth.

The main prob here is too much to do, not enough troops to do it. NATO has over 1 million soldiers, if 50K more were here we could clean this mess up within a year, no doubt at all. We could clean out the talibs, reinforce the outlying towns and villages, start reconstruct projects, train the ANA (the key to victory) and hand over the fighting to them far sooner..... Too few troops, to many restrictions, just shows the talibs NATO is not serious....

[weaponeer]

Here's alink to some good facts & figure info ref Canada in Afghanistan and the CF as a whole...

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/

[WestViking]

We already know that NATO allies have no stomach for armed confrontation with the terrorists, but we are screwing up by not having our timid allies set up and administer prison camps for captured terror suspects. That would solve the 'problem' and give the rear-echelon types something useful to do.

[weaponeer]

We already know that NATO allies have no stomach for armed confrontation with the terrorists, but we are screwing up by not having our timid allies set up and administer prison camps for captured terror suspects. That would solve the 'problem' and give the rear-echelon types something useful to do.

A bunch of Italian or French conscripts guarding prisoners.......

[jdobbin]

The Afghan Human Rights head said he heard rumours of torture of detainees but didn't tell Canada.

The Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission had heard rumours that Taliban fighters captured by Canadians may have been mistreated in local jails, but failed notify the Conservative government, says the agency's Kandahar manager.

"I have heard that they were being tortured, but I don't have any proof," Abdul Quadar Noorzai said in an interview with The Canadian Press from Kandahar.

"I heard this (as a) rumour."

Throughout the past week's political storm over allegations of prisoner torture, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, his embattled Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor and Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay have insisted they were not aware of "specific" cases.

Noorzai, whose agency was asked by Canada at the end of February to monitor the fate of prisoners, said he requires more than just rumours before reporting cases to Canadian authorities.

O'Connor kept assuring the House that the Commission was aware of what was happening to detainees but it seems obvious that they didn't even have access.

[Army Guy]

weaponeer:

Good to see you finally on line, i hope things are going well as they can go in the dust bowl, have you checked out all that airforce stuff yet, they got some interesting kit. Anyways keep safe.

[Army Guy]

I don't think it is going to matter whom takes over creating a prison,gaurding prisoners, who ever does it will be in for nothing but grief, and scandles. Canadians are far to quick in pionting fingers at abuses, that susposily happen. The present scandle is case in piont, there is no hard proof that prisoners that have been captured by Canadian forces have been tortured, we are assuming that they are...if there was charges should have been laid.

Another example was the accusation of Canadian forces personal abuses prisoners in thier custudy which has since been debunked, but Canadians were far to quick to believe that we were. which begs the question who are these Canadians really supporting , our troops, the mission, or our repution, who knows...but from the troops perspective it's not them, or the mission, not our repution....but more of a polictical piont grab...

The only solution to this problem is to put some presure on the Afagnis government to look into these alleged charges and to fix thier own system, which will take some time...

And although not an excuse to torture, it is these Afganis that are the victims here, The taliban have ruled by fear, torture, gruesome killings, for far to long, and they the Afganis people have not forgotten this...and while we sit in our ivory towers and judge them "would be be so morally superior if those things had been done to us and our families".. A quick look into our history says no we are not so differnet.

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070501/...fghan_cda_abuse

Many critics weigh in on the Afghan detainees.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper continued to insist Tuesday in the House of Commons that there was no evidence behind the allegations that detainees handed over by Canadian troops to Afghan authorities are being mistreated. But there has not yet been a full investigation into the claims of abuse.

The government statements have surprised people close to the Arar case.

"A few months later, (Day) seems to have forgotten everything that commissioner O'Connor said in the Arar report because one of the important lessons is that you can't jump to a conclusion that a person isn't tortured because casual observation doesn't reveal immediate signs of torture," said Lorne Waldman, one of Arar's lawyers.

Justice Dennis O'Connor wrote in his series of recommendations last year that when dealing with countries with a known record of torture, "Canadian officials should not wait for 'verification' or unequivocal evidence of torture in a specific case before arriving at a conclusion of a likelihood of torture."

In the case of Afghanistan, the Canadian government has been told by its own diplomats and human rights groups that torture is a common occurrence in the country's prisons. One of the methods of torture described by Afghans released from prisons resemble that which Arar experienced, such as whipping with electrical cables

Amnesty International's Alex Neve, also involved in the Arar inquiry, says torture was well documented in both Syria and Afghanistan.

"It's completely unacceptable for a government official or a government minister to avert their eyes and insist that they're not going to take it seriously because it has not been conclusively ruled with absolute certainty to be the case," said Neve.

"What is at stake with torture is far too serious to be handled in such a high-handed, cavalier fashion."

In the Commons Tuesday, Harper helped feed the storm of confusion over what Canadian officials have heard - and when - about allegations of torture.

This issue won't go away and Harper will eventually have to deal with it. He hasn't as of yet.