How much is this going to cost?

[August1991]

Some very back of the envelope calculations, all very conservative.

Let's say $700/person by boat to Cyprus or Turkey. (That means it cost $200,000 to charter the first boat with a capacity of 260 people. I may be way off here.)

Let's say three nights/days at $100/person/day for food and hotel en route.

Let's say $1500/person flight back to Canada. That's about $450,000 for a charter. (Fuel is at least half that.)

That's $2500/person and we'll likely have around 10,000 to evacuate. That's $25 million. (Seems too low.) I'm sure the final bill will be well beyond that. It also ignores all the costs of bureaucrats to organize this.

I heard Garth Turner mention the number $500 million but I think that is a scenario where we have to evacuate 50,000 people and I don't think that will be the case.

Anybody seen any numbers?

----

The crazy thing in all this is that a few people criticise Harper for not doing enough so Harper naturally puts the pressure on bureaucrats to solve the problem. They spend other people's money like drunk sailors because the Minister wants it. Any organization that operates this way cannot long endure. If I criticise you and your solution is to spend your neighbour's money, there is no end to the mischief that can occur.

50 years ago, government spending didn't work this way.

[RB]

we spend more than millions of tax dollars looking after other third world nations - you'd prefer we put Canadians to face the danger line, and probably killed while we feed, cloth and house others?

[August1991]

we spend more than millions of tax dollars looking after other third world nations - you'd prefer we put Canadians to face the danger line, and probably killed while we feed, cloth and house others?

You tell me, RB. How should we best spend our money?

Bill Gates just spent about $300 million on an AIDS vaccine. We may be spending about the same to transport several thousand people across the planet. Which is a better use of our abilities?

I'm more concerned about the nagging wife and the lazy husband. If the lazy husband had access to his neighbour's credit card, what do you think he would do when the wife nags?

That's modern government, and that's the situation Harper and hundreds of bureaucrats now face. They are being nagged and they see the credit card (not theirs) lying on the table in front of them. It's not hard to imagine what's going to happen and why the solution will not work in the long term.

----

On the numbers side for this evacuation, Turner seems to have budgeted $10,000 per person and 50,000 people to evacuate. That gives $500 million (half a billion).

I calculated (very conservatively) $2,500 per person and 10,000 to evacuate. That gives $25 million (a really nice lottery prize).

Splitting differences, I'd say we'll have to evacuate 15,000 at (all in) $7000 each. So, it'll cost around $100 million. (Corrected for inflation, that's about half a CN Tower.)

[jdobbin]

The crazy thing in all this is that a few people criticise Harper for not doing enough so Harper naturally puts the pressure on bureaucrats to solve the problem. They spend other people's money like drunk sailors because the Minister wants it. Any organization that operates this way cannot long endure. If I criticise you and your solution is to spend your neighbour's money, there is no end to the mischief that can occur.

50 years ago, government spending didn't work this way.

If Harper had issued the advisory for people to leave at the time the embassy warned, many people might have been able to leave before Israel's response. The Globe and Mail's article on the interference of the PMO is on the boards somewhere.

I think it is preferable to warn your citizen to get out when they can. And *then*, you can warn people about the costs they might be charged if they require help with their travel later on.

[geoffrey]

Travelling abroad carries risks, especially in a war prone area. Mind you, many if not most of these people are likely residents of Lebanon and not Canada and we really shouldn't be carting them around on our tax dollars.

[jdobbin]

Travelling abroad carries risks, especially in a war prone area. Mind you, many if not most of these people are likely residents of Lebanon and not Canada and we really shouldn't be carting them around on our tax dollars.

Still, the PMO should not have delayed the warning for Canadians to leave when they could. It wouldn't have cost the Canadian government anything to do that.

[gerryhatrick]

The crazy thing in all this is that a few people criticise Harper for not doing enough so Harper naturally puts the pressure on bureaucrats to solve the problem.

No the crazy thing is that Harper is micro-managing all things, including this. He needs to get away from that habit.

Did you read the news about how the logistics and decision making on the weekend became problematic because everything had to pass through the PMO?

[jdobbin]

No the crazy thing is that Harper is micro-managing all things, including this. He needs to get away from that habit.

Did you read the news about how the logistics and decision making on the weekend became problematic because everything had to pass through the PMO?

They could have gotten a lot of people out earlier if the PMO had not delayed.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If Harper is supposed to be a political genius, why didn't he simply issue a warning to citizens abroad at the begining of hostilities. Perhaps he will learn from this and change policy to reflect more citizen responsibility and avoid further foolishness. An individual travelling to a war zone is free to do so, but the government ought not to be held accountable for that decision. There is such a thing as common sense.

[MightyAC]

My local free newspaper/flyer distribution tool printed some emails by a local resident describing his struggle to actually get out. Anyway, in them he mentioned that Americans had to pay $4,000 each to be rescued. Has anyone heard about Americans paying for their transport home?

Also, some of the dual citizens we are rescuing have not been to Canada in many years and may not have any place to stay. I wonder if we will pay for their stay or if we'll release them into the wild.

[jdobbin]

My local free newspaper/flyer distribution tool printed some emails by a local resident describing his struggle to actually get out. Anyway, in them he mentioned that Americans had to pay $4,000 each to be rescued. Has anyone heard about Americans paying for their transport home?

Also, some of the dual citizens we are rescuing have not been to Canada in many years and may not have any place to stay. I wonder if we will pay for their stay or if we'll release them into the wild.

Some of the cost of bringing Americans back to the States is being charged but it is possible they might never collect as Republicans and Democrats in the House and Senate argue against it on humanitarian grounds.

Quebec has already said that they will take care of any Canadians returning to Quebec from Lebanon who need assistance. They haven't made an issue of it. The majority of Lebanese live in Quebec. No word on what other provinces are doing.

[seabee]

As of noon today, Québec is already taking care of those people. So far, nobody has criticized this move, very possibly because it is seen as the right thing to do. And nobody, to my knowledge, has raised the issue of dual citizenship. And in the same vein, poll results reported by Radio-Canada this morning indicate that roughly 50% of the people of Canada agree with M. Harper's stand on Israel, but in Québec 68% disagree with him, which means that in the ROC, a clear majority supports him; reminescent of the conscription referendum results during the last World War.

[Rue]

Its one thing to go to Lebanon as a tourist to visit relatives. That is one category of Canadians and its estimated there's about 1000-3000 people like that.

Then there is the issue of that 50,000 joint Canadian-Lebanon citizens. Many people criticize Canada's lax immigration policies that allows people to be convenient Canadians, i.e., get a Canadian passport, but have their principal residence in another country.

In the case of these 50,000 they live in Lebanon, there loyalty is to Lebanon and they use Canada as a convenience, somewhere to go to if things get bad or they need a medical operation but other then that for nothing else.

There is usually a 3 month waiting period when you move back to Canada to get OHIP but with these 50,000, many whom have not lived in Canada for years, Ontario is waiving their 3 month wait.

Now there is a debate going on. Who should be helped out first, the accidental tourists and people with principal residences and homes and businesses in Canada, or these 50,000 joint citizens who in reality are citizens simply because they got passports..

That is Canada's problem. It now may have to absorb 50,000 people who up until this crisis could have cared less about Canada.

I personally have a problem with the notion of dual citizenship. I always have and I practice what I preach, I did not go out and get an Israeli citizenship as I believe I am Canadian and only Canadian and you can only be loyal to one country not two.

I think in this current crisis, there area lot of unrealistic people who think they can make demands on Canada when its convenient.

Maybe its time we question our immigration policy which makes it so easy t be a hyphenated Canadian and live elsewhere and contribute zero to this country.

I say this for a simple reason. How many of these 50,000 are really loyal to Canada before Lebanon when push comes to shove?

More to the point, of these 50,000 how many are related to Canadians and assist in the obtaining of money to finance Hezbollah from their fellow Canadian relatives?

We know in the past Al Sahid and Karballah Charities in Canada were under investigation and exposed by CSIS and Interpol as front operations along with numerous other charitable fronts Hezbollah operates in the US, Latin and South America, Europe, and Africa.

Terrorist organizations like Hezbollah exist precisely because they can find host countries to place their operatives and have them raise finances.

How does it help to build a vision of a strong and unified Canada when people have divided loyalties and only see Canada as a convenient pit stop? Should we be suprised some of these citizens would have contempt for Canada or divided loyalties since we ask so little of them in return for their citizenship?

[Argus]

No the crazy thing is that Harper is micro-managing all things, including this. He needs to get away from that habit.

Did you read the news about how the logistics and decision making on the weekend became problematic because everything had to pass through the PMO?

They could have gotten a lot of people out earlier if the PMO had not delayed.

It's funny how the Globe, a paper which has never made much secret of its willingness to twist the facts around if it can work it into an attack on Harper - who they loath, mentions an anonymous source suggesting the PMO might have interfered and certain people now take it as gospel. Even with nothing else to support it.

[Argus]

Its one thing to go to Lebanon as a tourist to visit relatives. That is one category of Canadians and its estimated there's about 1000-3000 people like that.

Then there is the issue of that 50,000 joint Canadian-Lebanon citizens. Many people criticize Canada's lax immigration policies that allows people to be convenient Canadians, i.e., get a Canadian passport, but have their principal residence in another country.

In the case of these 50,000 they live in Lebanon, there loyalty is to Lebanon and they use Canada as a convenience, somewhere to go to if things get bad or they need a medical operation but other then that for nothing else.

There is usually a 3 month waiting period when you move back to Canada to get OHIP but with these 50,000, many whom have not lived in Canada for years, Ontario is waiving their 3 month wait.

And when things settle down in Lebanon these "Canadians" will hop on a plane and go back HOME.

[gerryhatrick]

And when things settle down in Lebanon these "Canadians" will hop on a plane and go back HOME.

Most of them are coming home. Given the fact that so many Canadians were vacationing in Lebanon at the moment, it's a safe be that most of them reside here at the moment.

As the ones that are returning home after a residing over in Lebanon, I hope they move to your street!

[Argus]

And when things settle down in Lebanon these "Canadians" will hop on a plane and go back HOME.

Most of them are coming home. Given the fact that so many Canadians were vacationing in Lebanon at the moment, it's a safe be that most of them reside here at the moment.

According to the media, 95% of the 50,000 "Canadians" in Lebanon are permanent residents there. Only about 5,000 are tourists.

[gerryhatrick]

And when things settle down in Lebanon these "Canadians" will hop on a plane and go back HOME.

Most of them are coming home. Given the fact that so many Canadians were vacationing in Lebanon at the moment, it's a safe be that most of them reside here at the moment.

According to the media, 95% of the 50,000 "Canadians" in Lebanon are permanent residents there. Only about 5,000 are tourists.

Really? I haven't seen that media report.

Here's one from the National Post:

Why 40,000 Canadians are in Lebanon

Migrants from civil war often go back every summer

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...11986be&k=61499

It mentions how the 2002 Francophonie Summit put the number of Lebanese immigrants in Canada at 250,000 and how a Montreal travel agent estimates 15,000 Montrealers return to Lebanon on vacation each year.

Many are likely coming back after having been in Canada for many years and then returning to Lebanon to reside, but so what? While they were here they paid taxes and contributed to the economy. If they're able to decide where they want to live then they're no doubt an economic benifit, not the burden you assume Lebanese people must be.

I highly doubt it's 95% and would be very interested to see that media report. I provide one here that pegs it around 50%. And in all likelyhood the 50% of Canadians who are currently residing in Lebanon will not all come back.

[jdobbin]

I highly doubt it's 95% and would be very interested to see that media report. I provide one here that pegs it around 50%. And in all likelyhood the 50% of Canadians who are currently residing in Lebanon will not all come back.

According to the reports from the embassy in Lebanon, most of the people who were getting evacuated were tourists.

[gerryhatrick]

I highly doubt it's 95% and would be very interested to see that media report. I provide one here that pegs it around 50%. And in all likelyhood the 50% of Canadians who are currently residing in Lebanon will not all come back.

According to the reports from the embassy in Lebanon, most of the people who were getting evacuated were tourists.

Without a doubt, that would be true. The National Post article above gives the breakdown of the 40,000 estimated Canadians in Lebanon, and given that about 15,000 would be vacationers from Montreal alone and that we have a population residing in Canada of 250,000, it's not unreasonable to extrapolate 50% of the 40,000 are tourists.

And they would be the ones most likely to be scrambling to get out of there.

Some of the Lebanese-Canadians who reside in Lebanon will likely come back, but certainly not the remaining 20,000. It's a big step to decide to move to another continent so most will likely remain, in spite of the destruction.

[geoffrey]

If they can afford to vacation there, they can afford to pay me back my moola.

[BubberMiley]

Children are being blown into pieces and you're worried about your moola. Wow.

[jdobbin]

If they can afford to vacation there, they can afford to pay me back my moola.

If it is a major issue, Harper can introduce it as legislation or as policy next time it happens.

I'm sure some people would pay if there was a mechanism in place. Many tried to get out before the crisis but all airlines were booked.

[BubberMiley]

If it is a major issue, Harper can introduce it as legislation or as policy next time it happens.

But then maybe the policy won't apply if he considers it a "measured response."

[gerryhatrick]

Children are being blown into pieces and you're worried about your moola. Wow.

Conservative values at work.