Dual Citizenship....an abuse of privilege?

[jdobbin]

We give out citizenship far too easily, and it is being abused. It is well-known, for example, that women in certain countries, ie, India and Pakistan, will fly to Canada on tourist visas when they're ready to give birth. This makes their kids "Canadians". They then fly home with their "Canadian" kids, who, when they reach adulthood, can return and sponsor their relatives. They also get the full benefits of citizenship, including health care, if it's worked right. And you can bet that whenever any of those 50,000 "Canadians" who were born in Lebananon, and who live in Lebanon, gets desperately sick and needs an expensive operation they fly to Canada so we can pay for it.

As for why people aren't terribly upset about dual Canadians who are Israeli or Italian - it's because those countries are well-off and have good social service nets. The problem is with dirt poor cesspools like Lebanon and Pakistan and India.

I've heard this story many times but I have never actually have seen it in the media. The only women who could fly to Canada, time it just right in the last month befire birth, find a place to stay, pay for birth in the hospital and then wait to get a citizenship card and passport made up... must be fairly wealthy women.

You would have to show me one of those stories about women doing that. I just don't believe you could see tens of thousands of births like that and then expensive sponsorhip years later of the familie.

[Argus]

We give out citizenship far too easily, and it is being abused. It is well-known, for example, that women in certain countries, ie, India and Pakistan, will fly to Canada on tourist visas when they're ready to give birth. This makes their kids "Canadians". They then fly home with their "Canadian" kids, who, when they reach adulthood, can return and sponsor their relatives. They also get the full benefits of citizenship, including health care, if it's worked right. And you can bet that whenever any of those 50,000 "Canadians" who were born in Lebananon, and who live in Lebanon, gets desperately sick and needs an expensive operation they fly to Canada so we can pay for it.

As for why people aren't terribly upset about dual Canadians who are Israeli or Italian - it's because those countries are well-off and have good social service nets. The problem is with dirt poor cesspools like Lebanon and Pakistan and India.

I've heard this story many times but I have never actually have seen it in the media. The only women who could fly to Canada, time it just right in the last month befire birth, find a place to stay, pay for birth in the hospital and then wait to get a citizenship card and passport made up... must be fairly wealthy women.

In this day and age, almost all these people have at least one relative in Canada. They come to visit, give birth - don't pay (you think the hospital is going to refuse service?) then go home. It's a hell of an investment. Even if it costs a few thousand for the flight, they'll more than make it back in a few years when they promise the little tyke's hand in marriage to someone with a lot of money who wants their kid to get Canadian citizenship.

You would have to show me one of those stories about women doing that. I just don't believe you could see tens of thousands of births like that and then expensive sponsorhip years later of the familie.

The one I saw was about India, but this is the one which popped up after a quick search.

Passport Babies

[jdobbin]

In this day and age, almost all these people have at least one relative in Canada. They come to visit, give birth - don't pay (you think the hospital is going to refuse service?) then go home. It's a hell of an investment. Even if it costs a few thousand for the flight, they'll more than make it back in a few years when they promise the little tyke's hand in marriage to someone with a lot of money who wants their kid to get Canadian citizenship.

You would have to show me one of those stories about women doing that. I just don't believe you could see tens of thousands of births like that and then expensive sponsorhip years later of the familie.

The one I saw was about India, but this is the one which popped up after a quick search.

Passport Babies

First I've heard of it. Immigration Canada must have some stats on how high the numbers are.

And if it is a probelm, it is Stephen Harper's baby now.

If Harper is going to run the country as a Liberal, I see no point as to why you would vote for him.

[gerryhatrick]

On the other hand, he says I'm less of a Canadian than anyone on Earth. Gerry likes to be the inclusive kind when it comes to the world. It's just the Canadian-born he despises. We're all Fascists and racists and scum.

I said you are not a Canadian. Your attitudes are not Canadian. A Canadian does not judge an entire population as you and others here have...judge them unworthy of citizenship. Ironically that makes you unworthy of Canadian citizenship.

[gerryhatrick]

What is a Canadian?

Someone with a Canadian citizenship. Once someone has attained a Canadian citizenship they are Canadian. Perhaps it can be removed if they lied on their application for example, but otherwise they are our Canadian brothers and sisters.

Lied on their application? And what does their application involve?

Gerry, it's frightening to consider that for you, Canadian citizenship is merely a question of completing an application form, honestly.

Well, you can ease your fears because that's not what I said. Let's put asside the melodramatic misrepresentations please.

Sorry. I will shut up now. My legitimate question will fall silent to your fascist political correctness. I was mistaken to intrude with my questions. (And you, like so many fascists before you, will believe that you have the support of the people because you hear no dissent.)

Good.

And in spite of your refusal to see the definition of facism beyond your narrow "won't allow dissent", I'll address your accusation.

You may dissent all you like. I do not seek to dissallow it. Stop pretending that I do.

Talk about dual citizenship and how much you'd like to see it stripped from Lebanese-Canadians all you like. In response I will call it what it is. Don't be so fragile to think your freedom is being threatened.

[Argus]

On the other hand, he says I'm less of a Canadian than anyone on Earth. Gerry likes to be the inclusive kind when it comes to the world. It's just the Canadian-born he despises. We're all Fascists and racists and scum.

I said you are not a Canadian. Your attitudes are not Canadian.

I'm curious. What other attitudes are not Canadian? If, for example, I felt homosexuals were disgusting and sick and should be locked up or even killed, would that disqualify me? What if I hated Jews and felt there was a vast Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? What if I felt that woman should be kept covered in sheets so the sight of them doesn't arouse men, and any who get too uppity should be beaten into place or killed for the honour of my family? Would that disqualify me from being a Canadian? How about if I felt this country should be run according to the law of my holy text?

[Canuck E Stan]

Seems our politicians are also squabbling about dual citizenship Canadians

MPs squabble over cost of saving dual citizens

"If the figure of 40,000 is true, there have to be a substantial number who are dual citizens who are living in Lebanon full time," said Mr. Turner. "I think all voters and taxpayers would be a little bit concerned about the fact that we are offering transport to these people from a region they voluntarily went to. It's not like they're accidental tourists."

Mr. Turner said the costly exercise raises the question of whether the government has the responsibility of removing people who are not resident citizens in Canada and added, "I think there's a strong argument to say no."

Toronto Liberal MP Derek Lee agreed, saying "we should focus primarily on Canadian citizens who are resident in Canada first. After that, I suppose we should accord the same privileges to those who are resident there ... I would be strongly in favour of that, they have to go through the process of identifying people anyway, they just can't take anybody."

Another Liberal MP, however, and NDP MP Bill Siksay said they were appalled by the suggestion of ranking the value of Canadian citizenship. "A Canadian citizen is a Canadian citizen, period," said Mr. Siksay. "We can't start talking about different categories of Canadian citizenship. We should be helping those folks out as best we're able."

[Drea]

Funny thing is.... lookit the pictures on TV of the Canadians fleeing Lebanon -- THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE! Blond haired little kids included! Should we deny them access to Canada too or just the darkies?

[August1991]

Sorry. I will shut up now. My legitimate question will fall silent to your fascist political correctness. I was mistaken to intrude with my questions. (And you, like so many fascists before you, will believe that you have the support of the people because you hear no dissent.)

Good.

And in spite of your refusal to see the definition of facism beyond your narrow "won't allow dissent", I'll address your accusation.

You may dissent all you like. I do not seek to dissallow it. Stop pretending that I do.

Political correctness seeks to silence people by making the expression of certain ideas beyond the pale. It has been used to close off legitimate debate about immigration. You have suggested that it is racist. For example:

Talk about dual citizenship and how much you'd like to see it stripped from Lebanese-Canadians all you like. In response I will call it what it is. Don't be so fragile to think your freedom is being threatened.

What would you call it, Gerry? Racism? (And BTW, I have never advocated removing dual citizenship.)

I don't appreciate being called a racist and under threat of such a slur, many people (including myself) often remove themselves from the debate.

Here's another example of what I mean:

Funny thing is.... lookit the pictures on TV of the Canadians fleeing Lebanon -- THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE! Blond haired little kids included! Should we deny them access to Canada too or just the darkies?

Drea, that post is ignorant and vulgar. You would shut down legitimate discussion about who we let into Canada since according to you, anyone who objects to immigrants must be obsessed with skin colour.

Some of our MPs seem to have more courage. Given Canuck's post above, it appears that some MPs are willing to create a new term, "resident citizen", and grant different rights to citizens who are not resident.

----

The fact of the matter is that visa officers abroad refuse to allow many foreigners to enter Canada every day. They do this on the basis of many factors that you would probably describe as racist. As a matter of official policy, French (and Israeli) citizens do not require a visitor visa to enter Canada temporarily. Indian (and Lebanese) citizens do. Is that not racist?

Gerry, you live in a fictional world where you think Canada is a wonderful country that does not practice discrimination. Canada actively practices discrimination between people of different nationalities.And Gerry, if you ever became PM, you'd have to maintain the same policy. Such is the real world.

My question about "What is a Canadian?" is a question we in Canada should start to ask ourselves seriously. It seems to me Gerry that for you, a Canadian is anyone who can fill out the forms. IOW, it is a purely bureaucratic problem.

That answer won't work anymore.

----

IMV, we cannot stop dual citizenship because it is impractical (impossible) to enforce. We could try to create an new category of "resident citizen" but that leads to abuse. (It exists in the case of the Old Age Pension. A Canadian citizen must be resident in Canada 10 years before receiving it.)

It seems to me the first and easiest change to make is that immigrants must be physically resident in Canada for 5 or even 10 years before they can apply for citizenship. I think we should reconsider how children of Canadian citizens become citizens. At present, any child born anywhere in the world with one Canadian citizen parent is a Canadian citizen. Given the hundreds of thousands if not millions of Canadians living abroad, this has exponential implications.

[Charles Anthony]

I said you are not a Canadian. Your attitudes are not Canadian.

I'm curious. What other attitudes are not Canadian?

There are none.

In the same way as there is no Canadian favorite color and no Canadian favorite hockey team, there are no Canadian attitudes.

The concept of "Canadian attitudes" is impractical.

My question about "What is a Canadian?" is a question we in Canada should start to ask ourselves seriously. It seems to me Gerry that for you, a Canadian is anyone who can fill out the forms. IOW, it is a purely bureaucratic problem.

That answer won't work anymore.

I am confortable saying that a Canadian is a bureaucratic distinction.

Other than bureaucracy, what should it be?

morals?

national pride?

willingness to pay taxes?

It seems to me the first and easiest change to make is that immigrants must be physically resident in Canada for 5 or even 10 years before they can apply for citizenship. I think we should reconsider how children of Canadian citizens become citizens.

It is the easiest and most objective method. Nobody can cry racism or discrimination.

That change can happen overnight.

[Argus]

My question about "What is a Canadian?" is a question we in Canada should start to ask ourselves seriously. It seems to me Gerry that for you, a Canadian is anyone who can fill out the forms. IOW, it is a purely bureaucratic problem.

That answer won't work anymore.

I am confortable saying that a Canadian is a bureaucratic distinction.

Other than bureaucracy, what should it be?

So, if I get off a plane in in Beijing, and fpr whatever reason the Communists decide to give me a passport, I can legitimately call myself Chinese? In your eyes I'd be no different than any of the other Chinese who were born and raised there?

[Charles Anthony]

We are talking about citizenship.

We are not talking about ethnicity or culture or nationality or whatever-other-red-herring.

If the qualifications for Chinese citizenship was just the simple possession of a Chinese passport. You are a Chinese citizen in your example. If that is their rules, that is bureaucracy.

In some countries, such as Switzerland, becoming a citizen is not that easy. Before any bureaucracy, you must have ethnicity or heritage in the country. Those are their rules.

So, if I get off a plane in in Beijing, and fpr whatever reason the Communists decide to give me a passport, I can legitimately call myself Chinese?

What are the requirements of Chinese citizenship? You tell me.

How am I supposed to know???

In your eyes I'd be no different than any of the other Chinese who were born and raised there?

Did I say that? Why the red herring?

In Canada, I do not believe that our population mix and history makes for any valid or useful arguments for ethnicity or heritage or culture or anything else that is subjective. Therefore, we should stick to simple objective criteria such as bureaucracy. In other words, filling out a form or number of years living in the country or one-parent-citizen or something else that is quantifiable.

[jdobbin]

Funny thing is.... lookit the pictures on TV of the Canadians fleeing Lebanon -- THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE! Blond haired little kids included! Should we deny them access to Canada too or just the darkies?

Statistics Canada has reported that 75% of the Lebanese in Canada are Christian.

A number of newspapers including the Globe and Mail have said that many Lebanese have excellent relations with Jewish communities in Canada and many have blamed Hezbollah for engaging Israel in a provactive action. Many in the Lebanese communties voted Conservative in the last election. Many Lebanese Canadians support Harper.

They are disappointed that they couldn't get in touch with their Canadian embassy or government for days. And they are disppointed that the Canadian government hasn't done more to ensure their safety.

When Harper gave Israel carte blanche to respond to Lebanon, he should have thought about how to get Canadians out of the country first.

[Argus]

We are talking about citizenship.

I remind you of your words. I am confortable saying that a Canadian is a bureaucratic distinction.

Other than bureaucracy, what should it be?

You did not speak of citizenship. You said "Canadian". Do you believe that nothing goes into the makeup of being a Canadian but a bureacratic decision?

We are not talking about ethnicity or culture or nationality or whatever-other-red-herring.

In most regards, people use the term "Canadian" and "Canadian citizen" interchangeably. You did so above.

If the qualifications for Chinese citizenship was just the simple possession of a Chinese passport. You are a Chinese citizen in your example.

But am I Chinese? Would you say to your friend "I know this Chinese guy who has a giant collection of dirt".

In your eyes I'd be no different than any of the other Chinese who were born and raised there?

Did I say that? Why the red herring?

It is not intended as a red herring. I'm addressing your apparent flexibility over the issue of who should and shouldn't be a Canadian. There's little point in even bringing up the matter of citizenship in this context because clearly a Canadian citizen is a Canadian citizen if the current law says they are.

In Canada, I do not believe that our population mix and history makes for any valid or useful arguments for ethnicity or heritage or culture or anything else that is subjective.

So there's nothing special or different or even unique about Canadians?

[Charles Anthony]

You did not speak of citizenship. You said "Canadian". Do you believe that nothing goes into the makeup of being a Canadian but a bureacratic decision?

I said that "Canadian" is a bureaucratic distinction in my opinion. The "bureaucratic distinction" issue came up originally in the thread as a qualification for citizenship.

I think Canada is different from many countries.

I can not speak for the Chinese.

In most regards, people use the term "Canadian" and "Canadian citizen" interchangeably. You did so above.

Yes. I think being a Canadian and Canadian-citizen are the same and I think they are only bureaucratic distinctions.

But am I Chinese?

Your example of "Chinese" is a poor choice for an analogy.

The term Chinese can refer to citizenship or culture or heritage or ethnicity.

There is no Canadian ethnicity.

Thus, it seemed like a red-herring.

I'm addressing your apparent flexibility over the issue of who should and shouldn't be a Canadian.

Correct. That would be an accurate way to describe my opinion.

[My honest opinion is even more flexible than you can imagine but I dare not say it. I should fear being tarred, feathered and chased out of town if I made it known.]

So there's nothing special or different or even unique about Canadians?

No. Not anything worth legislating. That is the salient feature of my position.

I would rather the determination of who is a Canadian simply be bureaucratic.

[Kindred]

How much of a burden on Canadians living in Canada will all these Dualies have on Canada when they decide they need Canada when they are in bad health or in need of old age pensions?

I havent read this whole thread but saw this and I have to ask what the hell makes people think that the only medical care available to people is in either Canada or the US? And that anyone living abroad has to go to either of these countries to receive medical care? Someone posted the same stupid comment about China is another thread. Most of these countries have a medical system and medical facilities superior to anything Canada has --

A group of Canadian Doctors just toured several countries overseas to view their medical facilities and medical systems in order to ascertain how to better improve the system in Canada. One of the countries they visited was China.

Further more you cannot collect CPP unless the contribute to it, and a lot of Canadians working overseas pay Canadian Income Tax and pay into CPP. They can also be eligible for pensions from the countries listed on their dual citizenship, which are generally better than Cdn pensions, therefore REDUCING the burden on the Canada Pension system ...... because they are not eligible for OAS supplements because of the two pensions .............. duh ........

What are the requirements of Chinese citizenship? You tell me.

How am I supposed to know???

It wouldnt hurt to do a little research before you post ........ or listen to someone who lives there instead of calling them commie spies and insulting them .......

I'm a Canadian who works in China, when I had a kidney stone within 2 hours I had had an ultra sound and a CT Scan, lab work and had seen a Specialist ......... no waiting years to see a Specialist, no six month wait for a CT Scan, no 2 1/2 month wait for an "emergency Ultra Sound" .......not exactly primitive and no need to rush home to Canada for Inferior Medical Care ...

[Argus]

So there's nothing special or different or even unique about Canadians?

No. Not anything worth legislating. That is the salient feature of my position.

I would rather the determination of who is a Canadian simply be bureaucratic.

Well, of course there is a bureacratic determination based on rules and regulations. When one meets the particular criteria as set by parliament one is legally defined as a citizen of Canada. That does not, however, make them a Canadian, at least, not in my opinion.

Do you think someone who is born and grows up in Lebanon abandons their cultural precepts, their learned behaviour patterns, their societal behaviour patterns the instant they are given a piece of plastic which says they're now Canadian citizens, or do they remain pretty much the exact same people they were the day before?

[Argus]

I'm a Canadian who works in China,

Are you a Canadian Canadian, or a plastic Canadian?

[Charles Anthony]

Do you think someone who is born and grows up in Lebanon abandons their cultural precepts, their learned behaviour patterns, their societal behaviour patterns the instant they are given a piece of plastic which says they're now Canadian citizens, or do they remain pretty much the exact same people they were the day before?

I think it is nobody's business and certainly not what I want a "government" to mind.

Are you a Canadian Canadian, or a plastic Canadian?

What is the difference? You explain.

Personally, I was born in Canada. Call me what you want. I do not care. How you treat me is more important.

I would hope that you treat me the same as you would treat any person standing on Canadian soil regardless of their citizenship. I would treat you the same.

[Argus]

Do you think someone who is born and grows up in Lebanon abandons their cultural precepts, their learned behaviour patterns, their societal behaviour patterns the instant they are given a piece of plastic which says they're now Canadian citizens, or do they remain pretty much the exact same people they were the day before?

I think it is nobody's business and certainly not what I want a "government" to mind.

Given the level of immigration to Canada I think we all have an interest in just what kind of cultural baggage immigrants are bringing with them, what kind of Canadians they become, how they vote, how they behave, etc. Clearly the Lebanese who came here, got Canadian citizenship, and then moved back home to live cannot be said to be loyal to Canada above all others. They are Lebanese with a piece of plastic.

[Canuck E Stan]

They are disappointed that they couldn't get in touch with their Canadian embassy or government for days. And they are disppointed that the Canadian government hasn't done more to ensure their safety.

The logistical nightmare is obvious to everybody except, understandably, the people on the ground desperate to leave Lebanon. But there is no good reason to transmit their personal frustration and expectation back to Canada as a failure of government. There are no existing commitments by any government to provide full passage to safety.

Foreign Affairs plainly states on its travel advisory services in emergencies it can help only in limited ways. It will, for example, "assist in arranging evacuation in the event of war." Assist in arranging, not find the boat and book the flight and pay for the tickets.

By any standard, the Canadian government -- and that of all the other nations whose citizens want out of Lebanon -- is providing service beyond the call of existing policy.

Since when has 'fast exit' been a right?

Prime ministers and presidents all over the world are busy explaining why they don't have a fleet of evacuating equipment on standby to move thousands of people as soon as needed.

How this came to be the new norm in national emergency readiness -- the Dunkirk Standard -- is a function of the all-too-familiar media capacity to telescope the words of a few people into major statements and universal truths, mix them up with a few inaccuracies, crank out newspaper editorials, foment political opposition and, suddenly, we have new policy.

So now Canada's new global policy will become- "24/7 anywhere-Canada will Resc-U"

[Charles Anthony]

Since when has 'fast exit' been a right?

It should not be -- not for Canadians and not for anybody else.

Charity should be handled by charities -- not "governments".

[jdobbin]

So now Canada's new global policy will become- "24/7 anywhere-Canada will Resc-U"

No, the policy is Canada will protect Canadian citizens. Isn't that what Israel is doing and which you support? You don't have the same the support for Canada doing it?

[Drea]

Here's another example of what I mean:

Funny thing is.... lookit the pictures on TV of the Canadians fleeing Lebanon -- THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE! Blond haired little kids included! Should we deny them access to Canada too or just the darkies?

Drea, that post is ignorant and vulgar. You would shut down legitimate discussion about who we let into Canada since according to you, anyone who objects to immigrants must be obsessed with skin colour.

Seems that way to me. Skin colour or percieved religion.

I doubt there would be any debate whatsoever if all the people being evacuated were white.

What if it were Britain being bombed and there were Canadians there? Would that make a difference to you?

What about snowbirds who spend half their life/income in the USA? Should we revoke their citizenship? Are they simply "plastic Canadians"?

There are many many Canadian citizens living and working abroad (all over the entire earth). Are they no longer Canadians?

[Kindred]

Are you a Canadian Canadian, or a plastic Canadian?

And what is that supposed to mean?