1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[M.Dancer]

I used the broadly defined races here to make my meaning understood by people here (who are for the most part, not very knowledgeable about clines or subdivisions of human races).

The broad definition is useless for all intents and purpuses excepting for those whose agenda is Ein Reich, Ein Schicklegruber, Ein Schlapstikken Komedy Hour

[benny]

Before 1491, societies were still traditional societies. These societies were imposing harsh rites of passage to their young. In modern societies, these rites have largely vanished. Skinhead movement may be only a proxy to these rites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_passage

[lictor616]

So can arabs...they can quite dark skinned, fair skinned, have blond hair, red hair and even blue eyes.....so basically Jews and Arabs share the same superficial diversity.

Your turn, madman.

arabs are an ethnic group, that are mistakenly made to mean all levantine and all middle eastern and all north african peoples... this is a mistake...

they are called "Arabs" because they speak dialects of Arabic sometimes... but that does not situate their race.

[M.Dancer]

arabs are an ethnic group, that are mistakenly made to mean all levantine and all middle eastern and all north african peoples... this is a mistake...

they are called "Arabs" because they speak dialects of Arabic sometimes... but that does not situate their race.

Never the less that "Arab" isn't a race, they come in all sizes and colours....

[lictor616]

Never the less that "Arab" isn't a race, they come in all sizes and colours....

well as long as we're playing dumb: Brazilian isn't a race either... neither is Democrat... or The Colorado Avalanche for that matter isn't a race either..

[benny]

well as long as we're playing dumb: Brazilian isn't a race either... neither is Democrat... or The Colorado Avalanche for that matter isn't a race either..

The Colorado Avalanche isn't in the race rather.

[jbg]

The broad definition is useless for all intents and purpuses excepting for those whose agenda is Ein Reich, Ein Schicklegruber, Ein Schlapstikken Komedy Hour

Godwin's Law?

[M.Dancer]

Actually they are out of the race...

[M.Dancer]

Godwin's Law?

There is of course one exception to the law. When in the discussion there is one who is on record for stating that Schicklgruber is to be admired..

[lictor616]

Never the less that "Arab" isn't a race, they come in all sizes and colours....

well that's a misconception... Arabs (IE: with Saudi ancestry) have such genes CYP4V2 gene...they also have as a good marker L173W and Q450X (which are recessive genes)...

there is a way to trace back ancestry to a particular geography and call that "Arab"... its just that modern patter confuses arab DIALECTS and arab GENES.

[lictor616]

The Colorado Avalanche isn't in the race rather.

ha! true enough...

[lictor616]

There is of course one exception to the law. When in the discussion there is one who is on record for stating that Schicklgruber is to be admired..

When was I ever on record saying this? Hitler was a political failure and a blundering military tactician who misguided a war that probably never should have been longer then 2 month and only for the purpose of retaining Gdansk...

such a man is not to be admired...

but of course... that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO relationship with the topic at hand... and we all know what kind of person uses such an argument... That's all you do Dancer... Red Herring, Misdirection and False Emphasis type arguments...

Edited April 28, 2009 by lictor616

[M.Dancer]

well that's a misconception... Arabs (IE: with Saudi ancestry) have such genes CYP4V2 gene...they also have as a good marker L173W and Q450X (which are recessive genes)...

there is a way to trace back ancestry to a particular geography and call that "Arab"... its just that modern patter confuses arab DIALECTS and arab GENES.

That's very interesting and totally irrelevant. Arabs come in all sizes and colours.

Here's a bonafide blue eyed arab....

http://www.topnews.in/files/king_1.jpg

But please continue playing dumb.

[lictor616]

That's very interesting and totally irrelevant. Arabs come in all sizes and colours.

Here's a bonafide blue eyed arab....

http://www.topnews.in/files/king_1.jpg

But please continue playing dumb.

??? cannot tell from the picture...

perhaps he has a white ancestor 3 generations ago...

and blue eyes do happen in the Mediterranean, also

and here are some blonde haired BROWN eyed Indo Nordic Europoid children

http://media.photobucket.com/image/brwon%2...rWyattPiper.jpg

they look quite racist don't they?

also, race is a CLUSTER OF TRAITS.. not a single trait..

[M.Dancer]

When was I ever on record saying this?

acting out? have you read his speeches - have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler built a superpopular political party along with a handful of men- at what point do we recognize the monumental achievement that that was?

Hitler was not given anything- he started from scratch and captured a nation- not by coincidence but by his own actions.

National Socialism (or third way capitalism) in Germany was a raving success, zero unemployment, stupendous scientific and mathematical literacy, outstanding social cohesion and sense of community (well except perhaps with Jews). The population was healthy beyond modern day canada- cancers, obesity, STD's were nearly at zero... what else? oh yes taxes were a great deal lower then current rates (its true Nazi Germany did not have millions of regular welfare dependents, the mentally and physically infirm (or "Erbkrank") ... there was also a minimum of inter-class hostility.

National Socialism (the type adopted by the nazis) produced only small government checks on industry while greatly improving technology and supplying Germany with a roaring economy...

But of course in our "free" country no one can say what I have just outlined under pains of "hate speech" prosecution. IN our intellectually undemanding and crumbling culture: one merely has to say "that's what Hitler did" to make fastidious minds boil with the insane and sullen hatred of reason.

for starters

[benny]

A Hitler-like individual important for understanding New World colonization may well be the Cardinal de Richelieu.

[jbg]

A Hitler-like individual important for understanding New World colonization may well be the Cardinal de Richelieu.

Cheapening the Holocaust doesn't look good on you or anyone.

[jbg]

I just fixed the thread title.

People should read the opening post (link) both for the importance of the work it excerpts and for the thread topic, which has been badly lost in a battle between a white supremacist and a nonsense-spouting left-winger.

Edited April 28, 2009 by jbg

[benny]

Cheapening the Holocaust doesn't look good on you or anyone.

The term holocaust originally derived from the Greek word holókauston, meaning a " whole (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god. Its Latin form (holocaustum) was first used with specific reference to a massacre of Jews by the chroniclers Roger of Howden and Richard of Devizes in the 1190s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[ToadBrother]

When was I ever on record saying this? Hitler was a political failure and a blundering military tactician who misguided a war that probably never should have been longer then 2 month and only for the purpose of retaining Gdansk...

such a man is not to be admired...

but of course... that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO relationship with the topic at hand... and we all know what kind of person uses such an argument... That's all you do Dancer... Red Herring, Misdirection and False Emphasis type arguments...

I would hardly call Hitler a "political" failure. He managed to go from a corporal to leader of Germany in the space of 15 years. Now, I'll admit that the way he did was vile and repugnant, but then again, history is replete with people seizing power in all sorts of nasty ways.

Churchill used to call Hitler the "mad genius", and though he thought little enough of the failed Austrian artist, he certainly never underestimated Hitler's capacity to overawe people, whether individuals (like a number of Brits) or large numbers of people. Yes, he was helped by Germany's circumstances as the severe world depression saw Germany's fragile recovery after WWI swept away.

It's often hard to put any of the key German actors in the rise of the Nazis and WWII into perspective, or to separate one thing from another. As a political manipulator, you'll find few individuals in history as skillful as Hitler. But you're right that, militarily, he blundered hideously. He completely underestimated the capacity of the Russians, overestimated Italy's abilities in North Africa, and assumed, for reasons that I don't think are terribly clear to anyone, even seventy years later, that the British Empire would simply fold up its tent. I think, to some extent, the reason he was so misled about Britain was that he had a few open and many more secret admirers in the aristocracy, and rather assumed that after the humiliations early on, that they would topple the government, either with the support of the British people, or despite it, and simply pull Britain out of the war. I don't think he honestly expected that someone like Churchill would ever gain power, or even if such a person did, that he'd ever maintain it.

As to the destruction of European Jewry, it's a sad testament not just to Hitler, but to two thousand years of hatred finally being matched with technical capacity to kill people en masse. All the pogroms, exiles and persecution that had gone on since the days when the Greeks, the original anti-Semites, had so frequently harassed and raised riots against Jews, found their ultimate expression in Hitler's unbelievable hatred of the Jews. The time was ripe; all those absurd Victorian notions of race, combined with the older bedrock of European anti-Semitism, and enabled by a leader willing to transform anti-Semitism into an entire branch of the German government, to apply civil engineering and modern bureaucracy to the extermination of an entire group of people.

Edited April 29, 2009 by ToadBrother

[M.Dancer]

I would hardly call Hitler a "political" failure.

Depending on which side of his mouth he is talking from, Lictor doesn't call him a political failure either...

Hitler built a superpopular political party along with a handful of men- at what point do we recognize the monumental achievement that that was?

[benny]

Holocausts (human sacrifices) were once very common practices in both pre-Columbian societies and Western societies.

[bush_cheney2004]

Holocausts (human sacrifices) were once very common practices in both pre-Columbian societies and Western societies.

Still are....now we call them "legal abortions".

[lictor616]

Still are....now we call them "legal abortions".

oh woow... quite the feat in mental gymnastics there...

as if a mangled piece of unconscious tissue is equivalent to a fully conscious human...

[ToadBrother]

Depending on which side of his mouth he is talking from, Lictor doesn't call him a political failure either...

I guess it depends on how you define success or failure. If you're talking as a decent human being and using politics to better his fellow man, Hitler was more than a failure, he comes in the category "Diametrically Opposed To".

I'll be clear here, if evil has any meaning at all, then Hitler was an evil man, and not just in our terms. I cannot imagine earlier civilizations viewing the mass murder of an entire ethno-racial group as justifiable. To be sure, even within Christendom, anti-Jewish sentiment runs deep, and I suspect there are a few leaders (Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain and Edward I of England come to mind) who might have done what Hitler did if they had had the technological means to do so. Still, I cannot imagine the Romans doing it. I can't imagine the Ancient Persians doing it. I can't imagine the Egyptians or the Ancient Chinese. Ancient empires were made up, frequently, of numerous groups; classified racially, ethnically, religiously, socially and so forth. The only reason any group would be targeted would be if they were seen as disturbing the general peace and order of the wider society.

Hitler seized control of a nation on the brink of economic and social breakdown. He did so through a combination of ruthlessness and political acumen. He understood his audience and knew and used their prejudices, and used it to achieve and maintain power, even after it had become clear to the political and military elite that he was leading them to unimaginable ruin.