1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[jennie]

Oh, that's interesting. I'm wondering if genocidal behvaiour committed by Indians against other Indians is going to be included in its mandate. Probably not.

Nor will it dwell on the fact that many of the earliest colonists, who came here in peace and who were in no position to defend themselves were routinely slaughtered. I guess the only way to fight biased, one-sided history is with biased, one-sided history. How will such a museum accomplish anything positive?

Can you provide evidence of these two types of events?

[jennie]

Honestly, if you tried to prove a point this way in a university classroom, you'd be laughed at and ridiculed. The outbreak of smallpox would most likely have come as a result of direct contact with contageous people. Payment in blankets was done because it was considered an object of value. Had the European really wanted to "exterminate" the Indians, it could easily have been done. The fact that every known Indian group in Canada except the Beothuk and the Neutrals (who were largely exterminated by the Five Nations) remain indicates that this was not the policy.

A 95% extermination rate doesn't lie. Granted it may be higher south of the border than north.

Disease decimated all Indigenous Peoples, and the remains of many Iroquoian peoples like the Neutrals and 'Hurons' came together, many with the Five Nations of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, some by choice and some by conquest. There were battles against Jesuits and churches and 'converted' aboriginal people as the churches' land grabs had already begun and the traditional Iroquoian people objected strongly to loss of territory.

There are two sides to every story, and we have been taught only the Euro slanted and perhaps incomplete account.

[jennie]

Small Pox via blankets is a myth.

http://listlva.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2...hist&P=6965

A comment copied from your link:

This is probably *not* a myth. See the refs to Jeffrey Amherst and other smallpox

> >related episodes in the following H-West exchange from 1995:

> >http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html

> >

> >Doug Deal

> >History/SUNY Oswego

So the jury's still out.

[kengs333]

A 95% extermination rate doesn't lie. Granted it may be higher south of the border than north.

Disease decimated all Indigenous Peoples, and the remains of many Iroquoian peoples like the Neutrals and 'Hurons' came together, many with the Five Nations of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, some by choice and some by conquest. There were battles against Jesuits and churches and 'converted' aboriginal people as the churches' land grabs had already begun and the traditional Iroquoian people objected strongly to loss of territory.

There are two sides to every story, and we have been taught only the Euro slanted and perhaps incomplete account.

Nobodys arguing that disease didn't kill some Indians, but there's no way of determining how many. Using a figure like 95% is irresponsible because the Indians didn't conduct a census in 1491, or any time before that; nor did they keep records of births and deaths. What we do know is that basically all Indian groups did survive "Conquest" and in order for that to happen there could not have been systematic attempts to exterminate them.

Incidently, the only Euro I know is the currency.

[M.Dancer]

A comment copied from your link:

This is probably *not* a myth. See the refs to Jeffrey Amherst and other smallpox

> >related episodes in the following H-West exchange from 1995:

> >http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threads/disc-smallpox.html

> >

> >Doug Deal

> >History/SUNY Oswego

So the jury's still out.

If you know who Amherst was then you might know about the alledged letter he wrote. I say alledged because there are no originals to these letters.

There is also no evidence that the task ever took place, and if it took place, that it worked. What makes it even more dubious is the fact that at the time, very little was known how small pox was transmitted and nothing was known about how it could be cured. The caveat being, if this story were to be true, it would be equally as dangerous to give the balnkets as to receive them.

[stignasty]

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763, [262k] suggests in a postscript the distribution of blankets to "inocculate the Indians"

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amher..._40_305_fn.jpeg

[M.Dancer]

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763, [262k] suggests in a postscript the distribution of blankets to "inocculate the Indians"

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amher..._40_305_fn.jpeg

The original letters were microfilmed in Britain during World War II to protect them from possible damage. Assuming that these letters are authentic, it seems clear from the foregoing that Amherst was caught up in war fever, and not at all fond of Indians, and that plans were made to inoculate them with some disease. This disease is presumed to be smallpox, because one earlier letter contains the line:

Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them.

However, there is not a shred of evidence that this plan was actually carried out. Conspicuous by its absence is any letter indicating that either of them took any action on the plan. It is inconceivable that such a letter, if it existed, would not have been found, with the armies of revisionist historians undoubtedly searching for it. Since smallpox was known to be in the area at the time, any disease outbreak among the Indians would prove little.

http://brneurosci.org/smallpox.html

[jennie]

http://brneurosci.org/smallpox.html

True, you won't find Euro evidence of our crimes. Why would this surprise anyone?

It is the elders shared stories of boatloads of blankets being delivered to their villages that convince me, and a story of a person returning home to his village after an absence, and all were dead, floating in the harbour where they seemed to have all gone at once for relief from the smallpox fever and lesions. There was no evidence, as one would expect, of people taken ill earlier being cared for by those still well, as happens when a disease works its way through a village naturally. Instead, the only evidence showed that everyone was taken ill at the same time with the disease running the same course in the same time frame for all. The evidence is consistent with all being infected at once by the blankets delivered.

I don't think it is possible at this time to dismiss the possibility.

[jbg]

It is the elders shared stories of boatloads of blankets being delivered to their villages that convince me, and a story of a person returning home to his village after an absence, and all were dead, floating in the harbour where they seemed to have all gone at once for relief from the smallpox fever and lesions. There was no evidence, as one would expect, of people taken ill earlier being cared for by those still well, as happens when a disease works its way through a village naturally. Instead, the only evidence showed that everyone was taken ill at the same time with the disease running the same course in the same time frame for all. The evidence is consistent with all being infected at once by the blankets delivered.

I don't think it is possible at this time to dismiss the possibility.

And given the fact that Europeans were regularly dieing of smallpox back then, albeit at lower mortality rates, would the deliverers of blankets have wanted to take a 4 in 10 shot of death to try to kill Indians by a roundabout means? I'm skeptical.

[ScottSA]

True, you won't find Euro evidence of our crimes. Why would this surprise anyone?

It is the elders shared stories of boatloads of blankets being delivered to their villages that convince me, and a story of a person returning home to his village after an absence, and all were dead, floating in the harbour where they seemed to have all gone at once for relief from the smallpox fever and lesions. There was no evidence, as one would expect, of people taken ill earlier being cared for by those still well, as happens when a disease works its way through a village naturally. Instead, the only evidence showed that everyone was taken ill at the same time with the disease running the same course in the same time frame for all. The evidence is consistent with all being infected at once by the blankets delivered.

I don't think it is possible at this time to dismiss the possibility.

Of course not Jennie. Shall we consider the jury still out on whether an Indian had his head sewn back on after a beheading at a residential school as well, or can we consider that fact yet?

[jennie]

Of course not Jennie. Shall we consider the jury still out on whether an Indian had his head sewn back on after a beheading at a residential school as well, or can we consider that fact yet?

I think, my child, that you need to learn the difference between truth and fiction.

[ScottSA]

I think, my child, that you need to learn the difference between truth and fiction.

I don't think it's me, little sister, who put it in the Mohawk "News." There's an awful lot of fiction swirling around them thar Caledonian hills masquerading as fact, ain't there?

[old_bold&cold]

My god people, you acted surprised that this type of thing were unheard of. Hell the Jews of Israel sent women who were infected with syphilles to service the Roman legions and these women willinly did so. The British Navy sailors were always trying to get back at their higher ups by getting these guys to lay with prostitutes that were infected with pox and /or venerial diseases of all kinds. During the dark ages cities underseige had bodies with the Black plague catapluted into them, so as to infect those inside. This kind of thing was just the same as saying hello, in those times. It was not something that was hidden and whispered about. Also if the white settlers really wanted to, they could have wiped the red man off the face of the earth. It was not as if they could not have won the fights. The Gatlin Guns that were invented in the early 1800's would have decimated any attacking indians and it would have just been a slaughter if these were used on the indian villages.

The times back then would have been much the same the settlers if infections were openly used. Only things like the Bubonic plague would have been so one sided to kill the indians and not so many settlers and we know that did not happen. I do think though that naturally occuring infections did take more indians then whitemen as the settlers were survivors of the many plagues of europe and had much different immunities. We wll must remember that in the dark ages these plagues killed the majority of people in Europe, and those who did survive had more immunity to it, and could be carriers . It was then only natural that it found its west to the new world, and yes it would kill the majority of the indians who had no immunities to this. This was nature who is responsible not man. So since the native who say they are one with nature, should blame that one for their problems.

[M.Dancer]

My god people, you acted surprised that this type of thing were unheard of. Hell the Jews of Israel sent women who were infected with syphilles to service the Roman legions and these women willinly did so

Where did this gem arrise?

I am currently re-reading Josephus' BJ and I have never encountered such a notion.

[kengs333]

Where did this gem arrise?

I am currently re-reading Josephus' BJ and I have never encountered such a notion.

Syphilis is known to have occurred in the ancient world; thus according to jennie-logic, it also must have happened that it was used in biological warfare.

[M.Dancer]

Syphilis is known to have occurred in the ancient world; thus according to jennie-logic, it also must have happened that it was used in biological warfare.

Quite, but it is old bold and cold making this claim.

[kengs333]

True, you won't find Euro evidence of our crimes. Why would this surprise anyone?

It is the elders shared stories of boatloads of blankets being delivered to their villages that convince me, and a story of a person returning home to his village after an absence, and all were dead, floating in the harbour where they seemed to have all gone at once for relief from the smallpox fever and lesions. There was no evidence, as one would expect, of people taken ill earlier being cared for by those still well, as happens when a disease works its way through a village naturally. Instead, the only evidence showed that everyone was taken ill at the same time with the disease running the same course in the same time frame for all. The evidence is consistent with all being infected at once by the blankets delivered.

I don't think it is possible at this time to dismiss the possibility.

Do the elders share stories of how the Taino apparently deliberately infected members of Columbus' crew with a virulent form of syphilis that caused much death and suffering in Europe? It seems to me that elders like to whitewash and sugar coat things a bit. I've never heard of an elder admitting that their people were once responsible for butchering whole villages, or torturing and canabalizing captives--facts which have been substantiated with written and archeological records.

[M.Dancer]

I can just see the Judean Peoples Liberation Front coming up with this plan to infect legionaires with a deadly disease that would eventually kill the legionaire.....20 to 30 years later......

Edited October 4, 2007 by M.Dancer

[old_bold&cold]

These were in the times where romans were seiging the cities of Israel. In those days the only cure for Syphillis was to infect the person with something giving very high fever. This also could have killed the person but it was not a large chance of it doing so. The Roman soldiers had to suffer the painful urinations and if left alone possible insanity. Syphillis has been used not only then but throughout the centuries as a weapon. Even in the wars before penicillin they had many terrible treatments for this disease. The silver bullet treatment was one of the more awful of its time. They would insert a bullet shape toll made of silver as it was easily shapable, in the mans penis and down hs eurethra to the bladder and the flattened bottom end if the bullet was designed to the scrape the side of the eurethra as they removed this which would of course then open the passage for urination. Kind of wants you to think you are glad you live in todays world now doesn't it. Either way this would tie up soldiers and give way to many kinds of infections etc.. Back then though once syphillis reached it last stage, they were no interventions and death and insanity were the end.

I believe that there even was mention of this in the Discovery channel presentation of Mossada, but yes, this has been presented many times in the descriptions of the events used during the days of the Romans. This should not shock you as it has been well documented about type of use. I am not sure though just how you would google this though.

[M.Dancer]

I believe that there even was mention of this in the Discovery channel presentation of Mossada, but yes, this has been presented many times in the descriptions of the events used during the days of the Romans. This should not shock you as it has been well documented about type of use. I am not sure though just how you would google this though.

I see no evidence of that being anything more than an urban myth. Discovery also air documenatries on theLoch Ness Monster.....I have read Josephus and Tacitus, and others and have never come across anything remotely like this. What's more, where as sexual mores may have been plastic in the mediterannium, amongst the Jews they were very very strict. Sending out a girl to prostitute herself would be a death sentance for her and shame for the family.

The only refence I can think of was J remarking that those with a venereal disease were not allowed in the temple.

No, I don't buy it at all.

[ScottSA]

I too have never heard anything like that. It doesn't even make sense from a strategic POV. Perhaps it's a story told by the elders and handed down through "oral tradition?"

As for the blanket contraversy, it's just more nonsense with nothing of any value to back it up.

[old_bold&cold]

M,Dancer

You never seemed niauve before, but it is not that these women would have a say one way or another. The Jews were slaves and there was no Temple Rules that could be enforced. We are not talking Geneva convention times here. Jewish women were used toi service the Roman legions every day and night in those days. To refuse was death. Once women were infected, yes they willingly went to exact revenge on as many as they could. But if you think for even a second that Temple rules and social cast, had anything to do with this, you are completely off base.

[jennie]

I don't think it's me, little sister, who put it in the Mohawk "News." There's an awful lot of fiction swirling around them thar Caledonian hills masquerading as fact, ain't there?

RedX is hardly intended as fact. You are naive.

[M.Dancer]

M,Dancer

You never seemed niauve before, but it is not that these women would have a say one way or another. The Jews were slaves and there was no Temple Rules that could be enforced.

Hell the Jews of Israel sent women who were infected with syphilles to service the Roman legions and these women willinly did so.

Aside from there being zero factual (contemporary evidence to back this up, and that you can't keep the stroy straight, explain again the value of giving Romans a disease that could take 20 years to kill them?

[jawapunk]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Syphillis was introduced to Europe through contact with North/South American Indians and that it was pretty well the only infectious disease that was passed in that direction.

As to the blanket debate, Europeans did not originally know that they were the ones passing small pox on, but as soon as they put it together there were many cases of what were thought to be "tainted" blankets being passed. Whether or not infection passed with these blankets is another thing. As stated before, smallpox probably wasn't passed on in this manner, but there certainly was an effort to. Rather, the continued interactions with Europeans for trade etc...would have been the cause of transmission.