Doom and Gloom forecast for Canada

[newbie]

...I dont need to back up what I say as almost all of it is self evident to anyone who lives in the real world - as opposed to ivory tower types whose experience with immigrants consists mainly of going to a Thai restaurant...

And there it is.

[jdobbin]

I was waiting for that!!

If there's one thing I've learned over the years in talking immigration with its supporters, every one of them is too emotionally immature and pig-ignorant to actually discuss the issue without calling names. None can put up any argument in support of it except the old cliche about how we all came from immigrants. And any criticism of immigration inevitably draws the racist charge.

You don't back up anything you say. It's what's called racism. You say Africans are reponsible for what is happening in your miserable life. Reeaallly.

[Argus]

I dont need to back up what I say as almost all of it is self evident to anyone who lives in the real world - as opposed to ivory tower types whose experience with immigrants consists mainly of going to a Thai restaurant.

Oh yes, if only we facilitated them more, we'd have no drug filled slums full of an "underclass" no ethnic street gangs, no drive-bys, no growing squalor and poverty! It's all our fault for not properly aclimating the goat herders the federal government lets in!

And the fact there is no logical, economic argument which stands up to even minor investigation to explain why we should be letting in all these people very year - that's just unimportant.

Racist.

Oh! Oh! Come and faciliate me, Dobby!

[Argus]

I was waiting for that!!

If there's one thing I've learned over the years in talking immigration with its supporters, every one of them is too emotionally immature and pig-ignorant to actually discuss the issue without calling names. None can put up any argument in support of it except the old cliche about how we all came from immigrants. And any criticism of immigration inevitably draws the racist charge.

You don't back up anything you say. It's what's called racism. You say Africans are reponsible for what is happening in your miserable life. Reeaallly.

You say you like to have sex with little boys because you can't get it up for women. Reealllly.

[jdobbin]

You say you like to have sex with little boys because you can't get it up for women. Reealllly.

At least in Canada, Ku Klux Klan members like yourself are few in number.

[Argus]

What a load of crap. The immigrants which flooded the west were largely of the same cultural makeup as the people who were there. And there were plenty of jobs for strong backs and weak, illiterate minds back then. That is not the case now.

What's the average cost of a house in BC today? How long is the commuting distance? In what way are the Canadian citizens of BC better off now than they were thirty years ago? Just what have immigrants done for them other than increase the crowding, cost of living and crime rate?

You must be joking? Same cultural background? The turn of the century saw the same type of intolerance and racism I'm seeing now. It wasn't easy at all and there no services as there are now to help with the adjustment.

The difference in cultural backgrounds between the immigrants of then, and the people already there was minor compared to the differences between, say Muslim goat herders, and Canadians today. As for their being no services, that was great. It meant people succeeded or went home. And neither cost us anything. Now they just stay and go on welfare, and cost us a fortune in settlement, in ESL, in health care, in public housing, etc.

You only argue from racism. You have no facts to back up anything you say, do you?

You only argue emotionally because you have no facts or information to back up what you say.

Well, and because you're a moron, of course.

[Argus]

You say you like to have sex with little boys because you can't get it up for women. Reealllly.

At least in Canada, Ku Klux Klan members like yourself are few in number.

Oh well, I think I would rather be a Ku Klux Klan member than a child molester like you.

[jdobbin]

You only argue emotionally because you have no facts or information to back up what you say.

Well, and because you're a moron, of course.

And you are a white supremacist.

[Argus]

You only argue emotionally because you have no facts or information to back up what you say.

Well, and because you're a moron, of course.

And you are a white supremacist.

I have nothing particular against non-whites.

Morons, on the other hand, I can live without.

[jdobbin]

I have nothing particular against non-whites.

Morons, on the other hand, I can live without.

Baloney. You just said you had a problems with Africans.

[Leafless]

Everyone here is the product of Immigration or Migration. Canada is a country built by Immigrants or it wouldnt exist.

If you ever travelled you would realize how populous the rest of the world is compared to Canada, and by that I mean all of Europe.

Canada was founded by the British who won the war 'on the 'Plains of Abraham" and populated by existing White Canadians and immigrants from Europe from various European countries belonging to Jeudo-Christian religions.

Recent immigrants and refugees Do Not add nothing NEW to this ESTABLISHED country outside of SOME generating taxes from a multitude of small family owned buisnesses but SOME are playing havoc in our major cities by destabilizing the Canadian quality of life in the way of crime, being unemployable, other straining welfare and police resources and housing, creating slums, and incompatibility with many of their religious beliefs and values in comparison to ours.

The federal government in the case of Ontario and immigrants and refugees are contributing in a decline in the quality of life for existing Ontarians many who want NO PART with this large infux of uncontrolled immigration in which Ontario never signed any immigration deal with the federal government.

You wrote:

"If you ever travelled you would realize how populous the rest of the world is compared to Canada, and by that I mean all of Europe."

I don't know if your bragging or complaining with a statement like that and who says Canada wants or would even consider congestion similar to over crowded old Europe.

China can be best described as a country climbing and evolving out of the 'rock age' to a modern industrialized successful country.

Unfortunately we in Canada might or could be described as as modern industrialized country evolving back into the 'rock age'.

[jdobbin]

I apologize for the name calling. Let's say we disagree and leave it at that.

I'm prepared to hash out actual numbers if they are ever presented but I cannot argue against someone's feelings on an issue.

[Argus]

I have nothing particular against non-whites.

Morons, on the other hand, I can live without.

Baloney. You just said you had a problems with Africans.

Prove it.

[Argus]

I apologize for the name calling. Let's say we disagree and leave it at that.

I'm prepared to hash out actual numbers if they are ever presented but I cannot argue against someone's feelings on an issue.

Try this.

What do immigrants bring? Acording to the article, immigrants who have arrived since 1991 have a 52% poverty rate. People below the poverty line are net tax drains, consuming more in government services than they pay in taxes.

So much for us only bringing in skilled immigrants who can support themselves.

And why? That is another issue. No one has yet offered up any substantive reason to support bringing in massive numbers of immigrants. Economic doesn't work in light of the above. You have a shortage of workers? I don't regard that as a problem. A shortage of jobs is a problem. If you need workers train those on welfare.

I don't know about you but I used to like this country. I don't regard it as an improvement when more than half the people in a city are foreign-born. I was one of those people who liked Canadians. So why do we keep bringing in more foreigners? Because it's racist to argue against doing so?

[jdobbin]

Try this.

What do immigrants bring? Acording to the article, immigrants who have arrived since 1991 have a 52% poverty rate. People below the poverty line are net tax drains, consuming more in government services than they pay in taxes.

So much for us only bringing in skilled immigrants who can support themselves.

And why? That is another issue. No one has yet offered up any substantive reason to support bringing in massive numbers of immigrants. Economic doesn't work in light of the above. You have a shortage of workers? I don't regard that as a problem. A shortage of jobs is a problem. If you need workers train those on welfare.

I don't know about you but I used to like this country. I don't regard it as an improvement when more than half the people in a city are foreign-born. I was one of those people who liked Canadians. So why do we keep bringing in more foreigners? Because it's racist to argue against doing so?

I don't give the article too much credence because it deals with 1991 numbers and doesn't say what proportion of that immigrant population has since moved to above that status. It also doesn't say what the poverty numbers are today? Improved? Stayed the same? Who knows?

The column in the Toronto Star was a "what if?" article rather than a story on numbers from the here and now. It forecast what things would look like in 2020. But it doesn't have any hard numbers either.

Ontario has to do a better job with immigration.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

My little praire city? I live about 3kms from a town with about ten houses and no business's in it. I choose to live away from the city life. You chosse to live in it. You can complain about yours if you like but I am fine with mine!

You're fine with yours but saying we need more and more immigration knowing those immigrants are coming to live with me not you. Here's the deal. We'll bring in a hundred immigrants from Somalia specifically to live with you and your little town. You'll have to feed and clothe and house them, btw.

After a year of living with them you come back here and tell us we should continue to bring in more immigrants.

Deal?

So you want to force people to live where you want them to live? Great idea! Lets take that a few steps further, since the government can now tell people where to live, those that employ you are able to do the same thing. You could very well find yourself in Somalia because some corporation can use the labour pool there at about 10 cents an hour.

With all due respect, I am not in favor of the nanny welfare state. The government handing out tax dollars doesn't really promote the individual incentive to accomplish anything for personal benefit. The entire question about immigration does require a rethink, that much I will agree with you on. But having the government tell people where to live is a no-no.

jdobbin (a praire dweller) original post quotes "My little praire city? I live about 3kms from a town with about ten houses and no business's in it. I choose to live away from the city life. You chosse to live in it. You can complain about yours if you like but I am fine with mine!"

So jdobbin thinks he's smart enough to escape the pitfalls of Canada's rotten immigration system while actually supporting it, forgets it is the big cities that keep rural Canada alive.

In other words if 'big cities go down then rural Canada goes down'. Your part of the the problem of the decay of Canada whether you think so or not.

And J.fortin (a praire dweller) must be spaced out if he says he is living in Alberta who is facing current major labour shortages makes this amazing statement: "The entire question about immigration does require a rethink, that much I will agree with you on. But having the government tell people where to live is a no-no."

And to think Mr. Harper ( a former praire dweller) is running the country, hopefully he doesn't think along the lines of these two.

Hey Leafless !

I don't live in a city, I live outside of a village on 10 acres. I am in favor of immigration BECAUSE there is a labor shortage in Alberta. I am against allowing the government of this nation or any other nation to tell citizens where to live, period. It isn't rocket science just common sense. I relaize there are problems associated with immigrants, I live in Alberta and we get "immigrants" from eastern Canada all the time. The poor simple minded folk are closet socialists who believe in the nanny state! Talk about culture shock. It doesn't take that long for these folks to get a job and grow a few brain cells and become good Albertans. I love listening to you folks complain about the cost of supporting these immigrants in your cities! You realize Alberta tax dollars subsidize your incompetent politicians in charge of their welfare states, so how about a little respect for our helping hand? Failing that just say thankyou and let us get back to work instead of bending our ear with complaints all of the time.

As far as I am concerned, the cities are not safe enough to live in, I won't raise my children in them. So I excercised a little personal initiative and moved to the country to protect my family by removing them from danger. You folks want to say in the hood wondering about the safety of your families, dodging car jackers and finding dope in your kids rooms then you are free to do so. But don't snivel about your decisions to me. You knew the risks and you made your call. You are free to leave just as you are free to stay.

The demographics of this nation are such that us low life country folks have about a zero say in what goes on in the legislatures of our own provinces and that of the nation. It is in fact you morons who created the damned problem in the first place with your welfare state attitudes whinning to get the government to do this and that, well now you have had your say and now you have got your way. Ahh geewhiz, it doesn't look the way you wanted it to! Guess what, that a real rough break for you.

But look at the bright side! While you folks have all the problems in the world to deal with because you are sooooo smart and are the only ones qualified to fix the problem, I will stay out here in rural Alberta. If you ever find yourself in the neigborhood stop in sometime, the cooffee is alway on. I haven't locked the door to the house in ten years. There is four vehicles outside at any given time, maybe five if everybody is home, the keys are in the ignitions. The shed in the back has a couple gas cans full in there if you ever need gas, there is no lock on that door either. We alway keep a few bucks in the jar on top of the fridge for emergencies, feel free if you need to and pay me back when you can! Things are a little different out here.

[jbg]

Unfortunately, such statistics are not kept, or if they're kept, are not easily accessible.

Once again, you are quite, quite mistaken.

Prove it. Don't tell me what you personally think. Show it to me. Don't say there are no stats. Show me why your point of view is correct.

Visit any public housing project or slum in Ontario. That ought to clear your head.

Ah, but that's an appeal to common sense, something that's not a) politically correct; or provable after studies costing millions.

[Leafless]

Ontario has to do a better job with immigration.

What makes you think your qualified to make such a statement?

Do you pay the bills?

Ontario is being DUMPED with 43% of all immigration to Canada.

Why is there NO democratic process to resolve the immigration issue?

Why are Ontario residents burdened with the huge cost of uncontrolled immigration when municiple taxes, housing, electricity are among or the highest in Canada?

If taxes are so high because of the high cost of housing, energy and municiple services how is flooding the province with huge numbers of immigrants many who cannot self-sustain themselves going to help the province that does not even have the proper infrastructure to cope with demand and chaotic conditons?

[jbg]

Visit any public housing project or slum in Ontario. That ought to clear your head

That doesn't tell me anything. Many of us have lived in crappy neighborhoods. What are the numbers?

As a very great leader of a very great democracy once said: "A proof is a proof (Link) What kind of proof ? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Ontario has to do a better job with immigration.

What makes you think your qualified to make such a statement?

Do you pay the bills?

Ontario is being DUMPED with 43% of all immigration to Canada.

Why is there NO democratic process to resolve the immigration issue?

Why are Ontario residents burdened with the huge cost of uncontrolled immigration when municiple taxes, housing, electricity are among or the highest in Canada?

If taxes are so high because of the high cost of housing, energy and municiple services how is flooding the province with huge numbers of immigrants many who cannot self-sustain themselves going to help the province that does not even have the proper infrastructure to cope with demand and chaotic conditons?

Ontario has 38% of the total population, and it has 43% of immigration. So the sky is falling from that extra 5%, its a freaking flood of humanity! Well I guess we should all cry a freaking river for poor Ontario. Why don't you folks do something about the problem, or is it possibly not a problem for a majority of citizens?

Are your taxes high because of the high cost of housing, energy and municiple services? In Alberta we have to pay for all that stuff ourselves! Are you suggesting that these things are free to citizens in Ontario and the taxpaying citizen has to pick up the tab for it? Maybe if the government didn't give away all of your taxdollars in social programs you would have sufficient infrastructure!

[Argus]

Try this.

What do immigrants bring? Acording to the article, immigrants who have arrived since 1991 have a 52% poverty rate. People below the poverty line are net tax drains, consuming more in government services than they pay in taxes.

So much for us only bringing in skilled immigrants who can support themselves.

And why? That is another issue. No one has yet offered up any substantive reason to support bringing in massive numbers of immigrants. Economic doesn't work in light of the above. You have a shortage of workers? I don't regard that as a problem. A shortage of jobs is a problem. If you need workers train those on welfare.

I don't give the article too much credence because it deals with 1991 numbers and doesn't say what proportion of that immigrant population has since moved to above that status.

Read it again. What is says it that while immigrants used to have better economic numbers than native born Canadians - presumably because they were carefully selected - SINCE 1991 that situation has turned around, and the immigrants who have arrived SINCE 1991 have a 52% poverty rate.

The column in the Toronto Star was a "what if?" article rather than a story on numbers from the here and now. It forecast what things would look like in 2020. But it doesn't have any hard numbers either.

Yes, it was a "what if things stay the way they are now", the numbers were 100,000 new immigrants into Toronto every year. And immigration is a federal responsibility, not provincial. The prediliction of people to want to live with those of their own kind (long recognized and accepted except when the people in question are White) wherever you try to place immigrants in Ontario most of them will gravitate towards the big cities anyway.

[Argus]

Hey Leafless !

I don't live in a city, I live outside of a village on 10 acres. I am in favor of immigration BECAUSE there is a labor shortage in Alberta. ...

I will stay out here in rural Alberta. If you ever find yourself in the neigborhood stop in sometime, the cooffee is alway on. I haven't locked the door to the house in ten years. There is four vehicles outside at any given time, maybe five if everybody is home, the keys are in the ignitions. The shed in the back has a couple gas cans full in there if you ever need gas, there is no lock on that door either. We alway keep a few bucks in the jar on top of the fridge for emergencies, feel free if you need to and pay me back when you can! Things are a little different out here.

Hey, Jerry. Not a problem. I'll suggest to the government they ship the next 100,000 refugees out to rural Alberta. That will take care of your labour problem. Those jobs will go from $50hr to $9hr in no time! No doubt that will make you happy. As for the unlocked houses and cars, well, with the slum which will spring up next door you'll soon decide you not only want to lock up but put bars in the windows and get an alarm system.

Don't think that'll happen? It happened to me. Oh, but I'm in a big city, so you're safe, right? For now.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Look guys I know things are a little complicated in the cities with immigration. I saw that crap happening, didn't like and I left. I like it out here a lot, it is different than living in town. I feel safe and so does my family its why we are where we are.

My little rant was about that fact that we have choices available to us. Leave the damned cities to the immigrants! Come out into rural Canada where you will find what you are looking for. If you think for a minute that the government will make things better for you then go ahead and stay where you are, suffer it out if you want because it is your right to do so. You don't have to, but you can if you want. I won't hold my breath witing for the government to straigten things out mind you.

I do think we need immigration to enrich our country, yes. The United States opened its doors to it and became the greatest nation on earth by taking in the poor and the sick, the old and the young. They took in everybody that wanted to do something for themselves and the nation has propered because of it. We can too. However in order to do this correctly we need some big time change in policies and methods. The main problem is this nanny state business. We should not just open the damned flood gates to drown, but we can sure tap the resource to irrigate and increase our productive efforts.

Supply and demand is the rule of the day in a consuming society. Right now in Alberta demand outstrips supply and we have inflation. More is wanted than is available and therefore the cost of supply exceeds current values. It will stay that way until a balance is struck and competition provides choice then prices will fall.

If it was up to me I would tell folks to take a look at the options before we jump into the damned river. It is possible to regulate the influx of people by controling the conditions that created the requirement in the first place. Right now in Alberta we have companies providing housing to employees just to get them to work for them. One guy hired people from Indonesia at $15.00 an hour to wash dishes in central Alberta. He had to get them a place to live and buy a bunch of furniture for them before they would come over! So there are ways of doing things. You just need to be creative. Having the government play in this pile is not exactly going to work out the way we want it to. You get some political decision made that will cause social changes not by design but by necessity. That is not a great consequence to public policy.

The main problem we face is over governance and under regulation at the same freaking time. There is simply too much reliance on the government to do things for us, we can do these things better than they can and it will cost us less. Government should concern themselves with providing regulations relevant to safety and environmental protection and then let the free citizens decide what happens from there.

[Leafless]

Ontario has to do a better job with immigration.

What makes you think your qualified to make such a statement?

Do you pay the bills?

Ontario is being DUMPED with 43% of all immigration to Canada.

Why is there NO democratic process to resolve the immigration issue?

Why are Ontario residents burdened with the huge cost of uncontrolled immigration when municiple taxes, housing, electricity are among or the highest in Canada?

If taxes are so high because of the high cost of housing, energy and municiple services how is flooding the province with huge numbers of immigrants many who cannot self-sustain themselves going to help the province that does not even have the proper infrastructure to cope with demand and chaotic conditons?

Ontario has 38% of the total population, and it has 43% of immigration. So the sky is falling from that extra 5%, its a freaking flood of humanity! Well I guess we should all cry a freaking river for poor Ontario. Why don't you folks do something about the problem, or is it possibly not a problem for a majority of citizens?

Are your taxes high because of the high cost of housing, energy and municiple services? In Alberta we have to pay for all that stuff ourselves! Are you suggesting that these things are free to citizens in Ontario and the taxpaying citizen has to pick up the tab for it? Maybe if the government didn't give away all of your taxdollars in social programs you would have sufficient infrastructure!

Somebody has to pay for infrastructure initially (which nobody did in Ontario's case) and get paid back or you have BIG problems that create an additonal burden to SOCIAL PROGRAMS. Iam am not aware of any major federal infrastructure or major projects to look after or accommodate federal immigration in Ontario.

But anyway here is a link to show who gets what in the way of immigration and it looks like in this case Ontario really got shafted with family class and so called protected persons in 2004.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/annual-re...5/section3.html

Check out the numbers.

[jdobbin]

Read it again. What is says it that while immigrants used to have better economic numbers than native born Canadians - presumably because they were carefully selected - SINCE 1991 that situation has turned around, and the immigrants who have arrived SINCE 1991 have a 52% poverty rate.

Yes, it was a "what if things stay the way they are now", the numbers were 100,000 new immigrants into Toronto every year. And immigration is a federal responsibility, not provincial. The prediliction of people to want to live with those of their own kind (long recognized and accepted except when the people in question are White) wherever you try to place immigrants in Ontario most of them will gravitate towards the big cities anyway.

That was until the 2001 census report. It has since dropped to 35%. Old numbers. Get me something newer.

Ontario has a constitutional right to work with the federal government in placing and selecting immigrants.