Religion In Public Schools

[nova_satori]

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he perfers to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible, has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe to save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of the mountains of evidence to the contrary, we will pin all our hopes on the slimest of doubts. God has not be proven not to exist, therefore he must exist! -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

Also, all governments do not have a scewed view of the world. Unarguably America is a super power and those with power make the rules. Those who make the rules know them. Therefore the know how the world works and arent kept in the dark about things.

Yes they do. Everyone has a skewed view of the world. No one can understand the world. You know nothing, but believe much. Every government (i believe) sees the world in their own views, their bias, their interests, their greed all distort the world into something vaguely resembeling its former self.

Do you actually think that justice is "might makes right?"

I have a book for you to read, it's called "PLATO'S REPUBLIC!" While America may act as "might makes right," is hardly correct on the right part. It is simply forcing its views upon the rest of the world. That is not a normal view of the world. Those who make the rules do it for their sole benefit. That is not justice.

You sound like someone who has started 8th grade.

[FastNed]

Hello, Luigi, welcome to the Forum.

First, let's get some facts straight about American Constitutional Law so the conversation has some relation to reality.

Upon the Founding of America, a revolutionary concept was introduced: That all "rights" reside in the people and that no government has any powers except those ceeded and/or assigned by the people to the government.

To make it quite clear, to insure that certain rights were never claimed by the government, the first TEN Amendments were written as specific limitations on the power of the FEDERAL government.

These ten are commonly called the Bill of Rights and you must keep in mind they are limits on the power of the Federal Government.

For those who are interested, here is the LINK.

Note: Article I also forbids laws prohibiting the Free Exercise of any religion so this is not a slam dunk for those who wish all religious speech prohibited. Note that there is a legitimate question of the power of a Federal Court to prohibit the exhibit of the Ten Commandments in a STATE Court.

Roys Rock may make it to the US Supreme Court and this Constitutional question is expected to be the primary issue in contention. Until a decision is issued, the Law remains uncertain.

[nova_satori]

Upon the Founding of America, a revolutionary concept was introduced: That all "rights" reside in the people and that no government has any powers except those ceeded and/or assigned by the people to the government.

More like expanded. Magna carta?

Note: Public schools are funded partially by the government, thus making them federal facilities. Doesn't it make sense that federal facilities abide by federal laws?

Should one be practicing religion in a government facility of a government seperate of the church?

[Luigi71585]

Nova, youre misrepresenting my issue. I never said that the decisions America makes were the correct or just ones. I disagree with many of the decisions, ie the enormous war budget thats being pushed forward. The plain and simple fact is that America controls the worlds economic and for the time being political importance. i dont understand how this point can even be argued. We have access to more information than any other country. My point was that the smaller, radical, theocratic nations keep their people in the dark as to the ways of the world and that is why their is so much terrorism and anti-americanism (not to mention our own people trashing it at every turn).

Anyhow, thanks for the welcome FastNed. Glad to be here. Oh and also i wish to point out that im here to debate not argue and so far am enjoying the respect you give others even with different (or incorrect) points.

Oh and how many people here are actually Canadian?

[Cameron]

Ok, some of my responses have been very harsh, I didn't mean some of them, but others I did. My views are atheist, I'm what you would call a "non-believer". I don't really mind religion. I did get hot-headed in some of my other posts, I usually have a calmer head on my shoulders. This topic has gone way off-topic.

The one thing that we all should have is the liberty to go to a public school and learn. If you did want to put religion in a public school you should make it an after school programme, not mandatory, and should be whatever religion you want to, not just Christianity.

Religion should not be publicly sited, because not everyone wants to hear that.

And, Government and Religion should be separate. Governments are there to govern all peoples of a country and not have a religious bias.

[Luigi71585]

That was an eloquesnt post Cameron. It was so nice it was almost undeabtable. I also wish to so eloquently express my views. My view as a quasi-believer (trust me i have more battles in me than you could care to know) is that religion should not be forced or even mentioned in school. I do, however, support what is now becoming more commonplace in conservative states: a moment of silence. This brief 60 second period is allocated at a convinient time, say after morning annoucements or whathaveyou, where a person can do whatevr they want as long is it is non-distracting. This allows believer a time of quiet prayer and non-believers can sit, read, meditate, or do yoga for all anyone cares. This is the only compromise i have found that anyone agrees with.

What are your views on this Cam?

What is ervyones views?

Is there anyone else in here that supports this?

[Cameron]

That's about it Luigi, have a moment of silence if you wish at the end of announcements and do what you will. Here in Canada it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue as it is in the states. Religion is somewhat a quiet entity here, and that's fine for me. If people want to attend they are more than welcome or you can pass by on the street without objection.

Religion has been with us for a very long time, who knows how the world started. There are many theories, many different stories, beliefs, etc. But we must take one thing to mind. We only have ONE planet. We must learn to live with each other, to respect other people. If we stay our current course in life we may just end up destroying it all together. We must stop fighting and start co-operating if we are going to advance the human race. That may mean some religions may have to advance too. It may be hard, but it is looking like a necessity.

All we have is ONE. ONE planet.

Earnest Hemmingway once said 'This world is a fine place and worth fighting for', I truly agree with the second part....I really do.

[nova_satori]

That may mean some religions may have to advance too. It may be hard, but it is looking like a necessity.

Every religion has to advance.

I never said that the decisions America makes were the correct or just ones

Neither did I (about the religion in the schools).

[Luigi71585]

Nova.

"Do you actaully believe that 'might makes right?'"

Point. You said i believed in might is right and that is incorrect. End Point.

[nova_satori]

your post left a huge impression of that, and it also followed the doctrine of "might makes right."

[Luigi71585]

Nove, please follow me here and try and see the difference.

I said plain and simple America makes the rules. That would be the might. No where in the post did i say the this power made them correct in anything. In fact, as i already stated, i disaggree constantly.

You misquoted me and i was making that distinct difference. They make the rules yes? Than that means that they have a distinct view or sight of the game no matter how good or bad the game they play is.

One say they make the rules and therefore are justified. MINE says the make the rules and can see how the game is played.

Re-read the last few pages. Just wanted to come accross as i intended.

[nova_satori]

Alright, alright. I'm just happy you don't believe dear ol' thrasymacus's definition of justice.

[Vandervecken]

The average schoolchild is in class 7 hours a day. the other 17, let them pray, but in class, let them think. don't bog down the system with anti-scientific processes. that's like teaching an evoloution class in the middle of sunday's sermon.

[Luigi71585]

School's, as a federally set up system, have to be impartial in their actions towards the wards in their care. They cant stop a child from praying. The leaglly cannot be opposed to prayer as long as its not offensive to other students. Churches are a naturally idea-exclusionary system. They have no laws bogging down their systems. They can say whatever they want on whatever issue (1st Amendment). They disagree with evolution so it wouldnt be taught. Point-counterpoint.

In most reasonable opinions, the education of a child is the most imortant part of their measly 24 hour day. To a believer, the relligion is the most important thing to them. They just want the right to combine the 2 most important entities of their days into one. Simple matter of how importnat is 60 seconds to the average student?

Do you disagree with my moment of silence plan? Youre new so try reading earlier posts

[Vandervecken]

Luigi, how can you possibly think that churches "have no laws bogging down their systems"?

have you ever taken a look at the Book of Mormon? or if you want an actual religion, the Chatecism of the Catholic church? Not that I agree with either...

all church law and doctorine. I didn't want my kids learning prayer at public school which is why we homeschool.

[Luigi71585]

These relgions acn say what they want and do what they want. Simple fact of the mater is, even if they preach someting only a minority of its people follow this. I give you the homosexuality/peadophilia scandals opf the Cathols. As for the Book of Mormon, well i dont want to offend anyone, but it bears the same weight as Chicken soup for the soul.

[nova_satori]

isn't the book of mormon the bible with a extra chapter?

[Luigi71585]

The books youre thinking of are the Nicean Books (Books of Tobit, 1st and 2nd Maccabee, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch) which are a Catholic addition to your "standard" bible. They were written approx. 100 years before Christ. These were added to the Catholic Bible at a convention in the past. The Orthadox Churches chose to disagree with this convention and when Luther left the Catholic Church, his bible also left these out.

The controversy on these is whether ot not they were "inspired by God." No one doubts the truth or relevancy of thse books.

The Book O' Mormon is a completely different book than the bible. According to Mormons the Book of Mormon is "another testiment of Jesus Christ." Its the story of the Gospel of Christ spreading from Israel to the americas. Created in the late 1800's when the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni. It tells the STORY of how Jesus visited the ancient indians tribes and blah, blah, blah.

Basically to non-mormon religious folk, the book of mormon is a hoax. A made up story about jesus coming to america. This "revelation" came only after severe European colonization and missionary workings. Joseph Smith was a known "profit hound" and most non-mormons period believe it to be just that - a profit scam.

Heres an interesting thought on Mormonism:

Mormons call the "angel" Moroni the "angel of light."

The bible refers to Lucifer (satan) as the Angel of light...

interesting thought eh?

[Luigi71585]

I would like to correct my last post. The Books are known as the Apocrafa and were added at the Nicene conference. This conference also drafted the Nicene Creed.

[chess123mate]

"It seems around where I live (Knoxville, TN), there are a lot of people who think that there isn't freedom of religion in public schools. I just want these "people" to know that, at least in my school district, PRAYER IS ALLOWED IN SCHOOL. Another thing they don't realize is that FREEDOM OF RELIGION APPLIES TO EVERYONE, not just themselves, but the Islamic and Jewish kids in my school as well."

Hmm. First of all, I want to say that as-of-now, at least in Canada where I live, I haven't encountered anyone telling me I can't practice my religion.

How long will that last? I hear not long.

Anyways, Luigi71585, you seem to have summed up everything else I wanted to say after I signed up and started typing, then realized there were 3 pages not 2

However, I disagree with all your posting Cameron, up until the last one on the 2nd page, and I think you guys have already covered that.

Just I'll point out these things...

"I don't waste a Sunday supporting other forms of cults"

"Cults" are different than "faiths".

"Religion is a virus, separating the human species, causing problems rather than solving them. You can have your religion if you want to, but I pay taxes to a government, not a church.

Keep religion and government separate, that includes SCHOOLS! "

"Religion isn't a virus, it's a freedom. It's quite wonderful. It does separate humans, and the differences cause problems. But is that religion, or people?

It isn't religion that's causing these problems! I literally just spent an hour debating stuff about global warming. You know something? There was no religion in that, yet humans still found out how to make a mess of the world. And make lots of disagreements and problems.

Humans are the problem, not religion. Our attitudes are the problem. The belief you are suggesting, that people should all be the same -- that's the problem!"

That quote is from myself from before I read the 2nd+3rd pages, and sorry, I'm not up to rewriting it.

Anyways, a moment of silence would be awesome. The thing that would mess up the system is if they put into place the law that has been suggested that "you aren't allowed to pray in class". To my knowledge, this isn't in place, but how long will that last?

Prayer in schools to no prayer to ___. The blank (representing a future possibility), logically, would be filled with "prayer banned".

Don't like that at all...

Oh, and Luigi

"They have no laws bogging down their systems. They can say whatever they want on whatever issue (1st Amendment). "

I go to church, and it's got lots of laws bogging it down. I wish the law would go "take a hike", but it doesn't, and it's being oppressed. Silently.

[Kitchener]

Anyways, Luigi71585, you seem to have summed up everything else I wanted to say...

Luigi has, I suspect, raised 4 children, had a fine career, and retired to Muskoka since this thread was last posted in.

Necrothreadia -- ick.

[Drea]

All who believe in prayer in school should believe that students are to pray to ALL the invisible entities -- for fairness to the student population.

You can't say "prayer belongs in schools" without meaning prayer for ALL religions. How will you handle it? 2 hours of varied prayer each morning?

Better to just leave religion out of public school. There are religious schools for the faithful to send their children.

[chess123mate]

All who believe in prayer in school should believe that students are to pray to ALL the invisible entities -- for fairness to the student population.

You can't say "prayer belongs in schools" without meaning prayer for ALL religions. How will you handle it? 2 hours of varied prayer each morning?

Better to just leave religion out of public school. There are religious schools for the faithful to send their children.

What? Are you joking? A moment of silence is fair, that means you can do whatever is proper to your religion. But unless I'm mistaken, almost all faiths would dictate that if you were given a choice to pray to another "god" or not pray at all, you'd choose to not pray. (Of course, it'd be more likely you'd simply keep praying to the "god" you want to anyway)

And, "prayer belongs in schools"? It's not that prayer specifically "belongs" in schools, but that prayer belongs in life!

As long as there is freedom of religions, there must be an allowance for religions in schools.

"Luigi has, I suspect, raised 4 children, had a fine career, and retired to Muskoka since this thread was last posted in.

Necrothreadia -- ick."

Hmm... rats... forgot to check the date

Still, it's a current issue if you ask me.

[segnosaur]

Fools. If you dont know whats next how can you risk it? I say better to place faith in something that MAY be true than in nothing at all. I may be wrong in my beliefs but at least i have one. Destruction is a waste of a life. Try believing in something regardless of what it is. Your soul may be at risk regrdless of what you believe.

What you have expressed is known by some people as "Pascal's Wager"... namely, even if the probability of god is exceptionally small, if it costs you nothing then you're better to believe (and save your immortal soul), than not believe. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager)

There are, of course, a couple of major problems with that argument:

- How do you know your soul will really be saved by your beliefs? Perhaps the real creator of everything is the Norse god Thor, who has a particular dislike for anyone believing in the christian god. Or even consider this: a god who endowed us with enough intelligence in order to reject is existence, and the only criteria he has for getting into heaven is enough intelligence and reasoning skill to reject any supernatural beliefs. So, your 'beliefs' could actually end up condeming you.

- Religion is never without cost. This cost can range from very high, explicit costs (suicide bombers, financial donations, lives 'wasted' in service to a non-existent god), to very minor, hard to quantify costs (impairment of reasoning skills, forgoing possible pleasures for religious purposes)

[Drea]

What? Are you joking? A moment of silence is fair, that means you can do whatever is proper to your religion.

No I am not joking.

Not all prayer is silent. Some yell it... better to just keep it at home IMO.

But unless I'm mistaken, almost all faiths would dictate that if you were given a choice to pray to another "god" or not pray at all, you'd choose to not pray. (Of course, it'd be more likely you'd simply keep praying to the "god" you want to anyway)

And have those that don't pray be "singled out" and picked on by the faithful, no thanks.

And, "prayer belongs in schools"? It's not that prayer specifically "belongs" in schools, but that prayer belongs in life!

No. It does not. Many people go through life without prayer and like it that way. Religion has no place in the public arena. If you want your child to have a religious education send them to a religious school. We don't send our atheist children to harass the kids at St. Mary's so why do you send the religious kids to our secular schools to force our secular children to pray (or be singled out by NOT praying)?

My coworker's daughter (age 8) is continually harassed by a bunch of Christian children that live on her block, they tell her in no uncertain terms that she is a sinner and is going to burn in hell. Nice Kids. Her mother is thankful that they do not attend her school.

As long as there is freedom of religions, there must be an allowance for religions in schools.

As long as there is freedom OF religion, there is freedom FROM religion.