Education in China

[Live From China]

I don't know if I would classify this as "an issue" but I just wanted to present a foreigner's view on education in China.

In a word, education in China, is tough, or better yet, brutal! The best Canadian student would have trouble surviving in the system here. First, the days are simply longer. I have seen students heading off to school at 0700 (and the local high school is only a 10 min. walk away). Routinely, classes start at 0730. Students will not finish until 1700. Then, there is what is known as mandatory study: students will go home or to the dining hall (if it is a boarding school) and then return at 1800. Mandatory study is anywhere from 2 to 4 hours, 5 days per week.

Even more striking: I have been told that if a teacher feels they did not grasp a concept, s/he may call for a Saturday class, and they will attend. They won't like it, but they will attend!

Education in Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and English are heavily emphasized. I would guess that your average junior high school student is doing our equivalent of senior high mathematics. Of course, the Chinese are very proud of their philosophical traditions. Laozi (Lao Tzu), Sunzi (Sun Tzu), Kongzi (Confucius), etc. are learned and known by all. Even your Chinese worker (gong ren) knows about Laozi!

Students are proud of their schools and wear their uniforms on their days off, if there really is such a thing. They are kind, polite and dignified (contrast that to many a junior high psychopath in Canada). And they are keen to learn English and many will talk to a foreigner if they get a chance.

Of course, many people in the West criticize Chinese students as robots, only capable of rote learning. My impression is that that is changing. Talk to any young student of high school age and you will find that they are learning to criticize and question.

Anyway, just my observations.

[Shady]

Students are proud of their schools and wear their uniforms on their days off, if there really is such a thing. They are kind, polite and dignified (contrast that to many a junior high psychopath in Canada).

Well, they better be proud and kind and polite and dignified, cause we all know what the consequences can be.

[Live From China]

Not sure I follow you. What are the consequences?

[August1991]

In a word, education in China, is tough, or better yet, brutal! The best Canadian student would have trouble surviving in the system here.

On the contrary.

The Chinese system is rote learning, as it is in most of the world outside of North America. It's a good system if the purpose is to discover who has a good memory and who can regurgitate facts despite stress. (Some Canadians are perfectly capable of this.)

Horace Mann wrote:

A class of small scholars in geography, on being examined respecting the natural divisions of the earth - its continents, oceans, islands, gulfs, etc - answered all the questions with admirable precision and promptness. Then they were asked by their visitor whether they had ever seen the earth about which they had been reciting; and they unanimously declared, in good faith, that they never had.

Years ago, North Americans realized that education is not merely about filtering out the chaff, it's also about learning. And that's the real challenge.

----

I hate to use this kind of argument but I will in this context. If the Chinese education system is so "good" (even the best Canadian students would have trouble), why are Chinese so poor?

[Live From China]

Of course, I never said the Chinese education system is "so good." Nor is it even implied. I said it was tough, very tough! And the best Canadian student would have trouble surviving in this system. They could not handle the work load. And I would challenge your idea that North American students know how to learn. My experience is just the opposite.

And, yes, there is still a lot of rote learning. But the system is changing, and I have witnessed this myself. Students question, come up with their own ideas for projects, etc. I have seen students come up with incredibly different ways of solving problems! Some students are starting to go to school overseas, so Mann's comments are starting to become outdated.

If our education system is so good, why is Canada getting poorer?

[Kindred]

The "Chinese" are so poor? If you are speaking in terms of what Canadians earn in Canada and the cost of living in Canada, then the average wage in China wouldnt go far.

But they dont live in Canada do they? All things are relative and the average Chinese worker is paid no less than the average Canadian worker here, in terms of buying power in their own country.

Why are so many PhD degree holders driving cabs in Canada? Does a degree guarantee you a job or a good income in Canada? It does in China.

Agricultural areas are poorer than urban, and could use more of an income.

The Chinese students ask a lot of questions, they are interested in learning, unlike, I have to say this, the majority of their Canadian counterparts in Canadian High Schools. More time is given to controlling students behavior in Canadian High Schools than is given to teaching or learning.

[Riverwind]

The Chinese students ask a lot of questions, they are interested in learning, unlike, I have to say this, the majority of their Canadian counterparts in Canadian High Schools. More time is given to controlling students behavior in Canadian High Schools than is given to teaching or learning.

Western culture looks down on people with intelligence and glorifies clowns and jocks. The west has such an economic advantage today that this anti-learning culture will not hurt the society in the short term. In the long term cultures like China which value learning will figure out how to encourage more creativity in their education system and that will allow them to catch up and surpass western students in all fields of endevour.

[Kindred]

So true River, and I might add the curiousity, interest and eagerness of the average Chinese person one meets on the street, in coffee shops, in stores, on buses and trains to learn about other cultures.

To welcome foreigners to their country and talk to them about their cultures, their experiences and to ask "is it true that all Canadians are rich and live in big houses?' " How does government work in your country?" etc.

Canada doesnt reward scholarship, or hard work. I know so many incompetent uneducated, and ignorant people holding down management or supervisory postions because daddy owns the company. While an employee with an MBA and ten years of management experience is working in the mail room.

I also believe Live From China said the education system in China is "tough, or brutal" and the average Canadian student couldnt hack it - he didnt say it was superior.

I say its superior because you dont see Chinese students mouthing off or threatening teachers and other students, you dont see the violence, the behavior problems, the laziness you do in Canada. Chinese schools dont have the "touchy feely" fear of discipling students, or setting achievement expectations.

As for what happens to them if they dont toe the line, they are expelled from the school and have to find another willing to take them ...... bet you thought they would be executed huh, Shady? Or thrown into prison or publicly beaten and forced to work on a farm for the rest of their lives ........

Canadian teachers wouldnt enforce such rules or teach in schools in China if that were the case.

If a student acts up we get to take them outside and shoot them - makes discipline really easy. Maybe thats a system Canada could use

[August1991]

I say its superior because you dont see Chinese students mouthing off or threatening teachers and other students, you dont see the violence, the behavior problems, the laziness you do in Canada. Chinese schools dont have the "touchy feely" fear of discipling students, or setting achievement expectations.

Of course not. Chinese students are disciplined. They "learn".

For gawdsakes, do you want all of us to emulate a Chinese education system? China? Do you want us to live in dire poverty? China - The Future!

Our North American education system is a wonder - and we should take pride in the gift of Socrates and Plato - because we question authority. People can learn, have an open mind. I hope in the future that people have the freedom to choose.

In China, they don't. And the Chinese still haven't figured out how to organize a civilized society where ordinary people are free to choose. When the Chinese have figured that out, then come back to me about about their education system and I'll listen.

[Shady]

If our education system is so good, why is Canada getting poorer?

Ok, I'm kinda getting tired of your propaganda. Canada is not getting poorer. Personally, I don't care about how tough Canadian students might find education in China. I think Canadians in general would find life tough in China. When you grow up with certain rights and freedoms, and a certain standard of living, it would be difficult to adjust to such a backward way of life. I couldn't imagine not being able to have as many children as I wanted, and of whatever sex. I couldn't imagine being paid such low and pathetic wages. I couldn't imagine being persecuted for practicing relgion (Falun Gong). I couldn't imagine not being allowed to speak out against the government. I couldn't imagine living in a country that censors the information I'm "allowed" to get from the internet. And I couldn't imagine living in a country with such little regard for environmental standards. Just how educated are they really?

[Live From China]

August1991 your comments are ludicrous. You draw a correlation between the Chinese education system and poverty in China! And the correlation doesn't hold. Are you actually saying that if our system was more disciplined that we would suddenly be thrown into dire poverty?

Furthermore, we don't teach about Socrates and Plato in high school. Our questioning of authority has become naysaying, students question for the sake of questioning, and the rights of the individual has been placed magnitudes above the good of society or the group.

And the Chinese are slowly learning about freedom of choice. Come over here and see for yourself.

[Live From China]

Ok, I'm kinda getting tired of your propaganda.

If you read the very last sentence in my first post, you will see the word O-B-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-O-N-S. I never said the Chinese education system was superior, better, or whatever. There was no value judgement attached to my observations. All, I said was that the system is tougher, and it is!

And I know the above quote is a reference to my comment about Canada getting poorer, but I thought I would start at the beginning. I believe it is and I will find some information for you.

Personally, I don't care about how tough Canadian students might find education in China.

I am not too sure what the purpose of this statement is but OK! So now what? Why get so hot under the collar about my observations. Why not come over here and make some of your own? I think you would be surprised, and enlightened.

And speaking of propaganda:

1. The one-child policy has become a thing of the past. I routinely speak to people who have more than one child; in fact, our secretary is expecting her second child.

2. Wages are on the increase. Astoundingly there is actually labor shortages in China. As a result, employers are being forced to offer higher wages, better housing and benefits.

3. The Chinese are aware that their environmental standards need to improve.

4. Freedom of religion is expanding.

So there

[Kindred]

I thought this thread was about education, funny how the mention of China drives the majority of the posters here into a rabid frenzy ...

The title of this forum is "THE REST OF THE WORLD" it doesnt say in the title of this forum, "BASH THE REST OF THE WORLD" I would assume that would mean "Discussing the gaining knowledge of other countries"........ in the world today, 2006 -

Shady why dont you publish pamphlets in Toronto or where ever you choose saying you are going to over throw the Canadian Government, execute the PM and members of Parliament and see how far you get? Be sure the murder all the members of your family before you set out to do this because they wont join you in your attempt to overthrow the Government and become the Supreme Ruler of the world -- do you think Canada is going to say "oh well she does have freedom of expression to do these things."

Or set up a website - oh wait, thats been done and everyone connected with it was arrested werent they?

China does allow freedom to practise religion, any religion with the exception of violent cults, but then Charles Manson wasnt welcomed with open arms in the US was he? And it seems to me its hard times being Muslim in Canada, US or any "western country" these days so all this talk about freedom of religion really isnt legitimate is it? Not to mention the complaints I have read on this forum about the Sikhs and their religious symbols and rights to practise their beliefs in Canada -

All you know about Falun Gong is what they want you to know, and think they are. Their presence in China is NOT what it is in Canada - have you read the material they have published underground in China? People in China are terrified of Falun Gong, afraid to even talk about it because they could be killed too, by the Falun Gong followers.

I dont know how I can word it more plainly for the posters here the the Chinese people do NOT pay $700 or $800 CANADIAN DOLLARS for an apartment, they do NOT pay $600 to $700 CANADIAN DOLLARS to feed their familes, they work for CHINESE WAGES AND PAY CHINESE PRICES for the good they consumer.

Speaking in RELATIVE TERSM THEY ARE NO WORSE OFF THAN MOST CANADIANS ARE. The currency used in China is NOT Canadian dollars. Rent, food, clothing, cars, gas, taxi fares, train fare do NOT cost what they do in Canada.

The fare to travel just over an hour by rapid transit in China from one burb to another is 4 RMB or 59 cents in Canadian money. Most people buy commuter passes that cost far less than that.

A person earning minimum wage in Canada can earn between $6.35 and $9.00 an hour - even if they work 40 hours a week, they earn between $1016.00 and $1440.00 LESS TAXES, CPP, EI, ETC a month. Which is what? Approximately $150.00 to $200.00 a month? Which leaves them with what? $866.00 to $1240.00 a month for net income?

Rent, say in a not so great neighbourhood in Canada, $700.00 a month, utilities around $200.00 a month and food around $350.00 a month for a single person, in Canada. Whats left? Nothing. They cant even afford THAT.

The same person in China, earning what would be considered minimum wage, say working in a hotel, makes around 500 to 800 RMB a month. No deductions.

Their apartment, a nice one, is about 250 RMB a month, food costs them about 150 to 300 RMB a month, and utilities about 110 RMB a month.

I dont see a huge difference in wages between the two countries , if they want to rent in a not so great by western standards area, they pay about 150 a month for an apartment, that is between 600 to 700 sq feet and has all the amenities except it would have a shower and no bathtub. Gosh they have money left over at the end of the month ! Their Canadian counterparts DONT.

Those just starting out, students training on the job in hotels, earning around 500 RMB a month have their board and room provided for them, for 200 RMB a month.

The ONLY difference between an apartment in Canada and one in China is the one in China is WAY cheaper, and the kitchen is smaller. In fact for the same prices one pays in Canada, I can rent a VILLA in China.

And btw you might be interested in knowing Canadian teachers are being paid Canadian wages by Canadian schools, certified by the provincial education departments of CANADA while working in China -

Our schools head office is in Vancouver BC. They are cetified by the BC School District

The initial post here plainly stated that Live From China felt the education system was tough, or brutal and I plainly stated that I felt it was superior in that students behave themselves in the schools, want to learn, that their purpose in being in school is to learn .. that there isnt the behavior problems in school in China that you see in Canada, the US, England etc ... Ask ANY teacher if violence is a problem in Canadian schools, against teachers, against other students and they will say yes.

Ok, I'm kinda getting tired of your propaganda.

How are any of those comments propaganda? because you perception of China is based on historical events that occurred decades ago, and the Falun Gong's statements?

Most of your posts who no knowledge of China, they are based on events that happened decades ago, who is the Head of the Chinese Government today? What recent legislation has been passed in China, say within the last year or so? What kind of social services does China provide for its citizens? How many Canadian businesses have offices and production facilities in China? How many Canadians work in China? How many Canadian students are studying in China, and why would their parents approve if China is such a horrid, filthy, poor, oppressed, dangerous country for their chikldren to be attending school in? What kind of Government does China have? How involved is Government in business ventures? How much does China and the Chinese contribute in disaster relief to countries like Thailand and India?

I am not "promoting" China, but neither am I so close minded that the mention of another country sends me into a rabid frenzy, or so uneducated and ignorant that I am not interested in or aware of the impact China has on the Canadian economy.

There is no intellectual discussion on this forum, with a few exceptions, it is just a free for all of hurling insults at anyone who doesnt fit into the mold of "secular Canada". It remind me of Rome before its fall -- the same values, the same sense of superiority, the same complete lack of awareness or oher cultures and countries.

My freedoms have never been compromsied or threatened in China, in fact I feel safer there then I do in Canada given the lower crime rates, people can have more than one child if they pay the medical costs associated with having their additional off spring, and education costs etc.

And for the last time, internet, phone conversations, television whatever is not restricted by the Chinese Government except in very extreme cases, just as it is in Western countries given the security concerns they also have. How is it that people from China can post to these kind of forums?

The educational system has its good points, and its drawbacks BUT VIOLENCE AND MISBEHAVIOR BY STUDENTS IS NOT A PROBLEM, THEY WANT TO LEARN AND WORK HARD. Most go on to university in Western Contries and a huge number win scholarships to those universities.

Information, knowledge, its considered a valuable commodity in some countries

[Kindred]

I apologize for all the typos, its been a very long day - sorry for that garbled aspect at times in my post.

[Live From China]

On Canada getting poorer:

http://www.thenav.ca/article_display.php?id=517

http://dawn.thot.net/cera3.html

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ty20050914.html

http://www.parl.gc.ca/infocomdoc/36/1/FINA...2/ndp-e_-29.htm

Some good "grenade-in-the-face" reality!

[Kindred]

Having said that I will try to post something intelligent without a lot of typos- one of the things I love the most about China is the children. They are so well cared for, so bright, so curious, and so friendly. In many areas we are the first foreigners they have seen and they all come running to look at us, talk to us, every child in China can speak a few words of English, they are all studying English in school. Their parents are so proud of them. They tell their children to come and "talk English" to us. They are so trusting and so friendly. China's greatest treasure IMO.

The first question most Chinese will ask is "are you Canadian?" They love Canada and Canadians, they think we are wonderful, kind, generous, peaceful people - go figure 'eh? They ALL say something about how beautiful and clean Canada is .... China is also a very beautiful country, though urban sprawl and reality cant be ignored. Miles of flowers and trees and thousands of parks ....... and art, and statues, and the facades of buildings are sculptured and an amazing thing. So many angels everywhere, statues, building facades -- this surprised me.

We have to teach the students coming to Canada that they cant trust all Canadians, we have to teach them about assaults, and not walking alone at night, to keep their doors locked - etc. They are always so surprised to hear this. And we have to teach them that they will encounter racism. They find that very hard to believe.

The Chinese people love their country, they have a lot of pride in who they are. Chinese businessmen and wealthy people donate phenominal sums to charities. They are very generous people. very kind and hospitable.

One thing they dont have in in China is equality between the sexes. Women still take second place, a woman will stand up and give her seat to a man, let a man push her aside in a queue and is expected to do all the domestic chores.

Men are taking a much greater role in child care, this is great to see. Most of the young men seem to be very kind and soft hearted, this is a good thing to see happening.

We generally see an unequal division of high achievers in school, with the girls being harder working and making better grades than the boys.

Young women are refusing to give in to family pressire and get married, they are putting education and a career first. They want to be independent and not a housekeeper for a husband.

Students are very concerned with environmental issues and charity. A group of students in the school we were at last year pooled their money to buy Christmas presents for the poorer rural people in the area.

The students from wealthy families are not given large allowances, or cars, and a parent delivering a bicycle to one of them is a major event for them. They are not spoiled rich brats who can just slide through life.

Their family's are very important to them and the best compliment you can pay a student is to say "I know your family must be very proud of you".

These students havent had a lot of material goods, given their history and you see 20 year olds with teddy bears, Hello Kitties (ni hao mao ) and other "toys" which are still novel to them - all mass produced in China of course. The High School students love Snoopy, (sha-nooby) and Woodstock -

Almost every student has a laptop and a cell phone. They live in dorms with dorm supervisors in most schools. They are allowed to leave the school ONLY if their marks are good and only one day a week. Smoking, drinking is just not acceptable behavior. In fact I have never seen a Chinese women smoking, it isnt done in public. (that darn inequality thing again). They usually wear uniforms. TEachers are expected to be well dressed.

Some students in public schools often start at 6 AM and go until 5 PM. Many have enforced study hall after dinner, from 6 PM to 9PM. I think its much too hard on the students and would love to see these hours shortened. So many live at school because they dont have time to travel back and forth each day.

Canadian schools DONT start at 6 AM, the teachers wouldnt go along with starting that early. Classes generally go from 8:30 AM to 3:30 or 4:30 PM, and the kids have supervised study halls after dinner, they arent supposed to be using their computers for anything other than study at these times, but this is when they email and chat on messenger with friends in China and overseas. (when no one is watching them).

They are just human beings after all .........

[Kindred]

Just found this on another thread,

Sympatico's customers warned of privacy loss

Updated Tue. Jun. 27 2006 11:31 PM ET

Canadian Press

OTTWA -- One of Canada's largest Internet service providers is warning its customers that Big Brother is lurking online, with the federal government expected to revive an Internet surveillance bill.

If the legislation is reintroduced, it could allow police unfettered access to personal information without a warrant, experts warn.

Bell Sympatico has informed its customers that it intends to "monitor or investigate content or your use of your service provider's networks and to disclose any information necessary to satisfy any laws, regulations or other governmental request.''

Geist fears police will be able to demand customer information from Internet providers without having to make a case before a judge, opening the door wide to an abuse of civil rights........

Read more here: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

couldn't imagine living in a country that censors the information I'm "allowed" to get from the internet.

or monitors your actions and "investigates" content of websites you visit?

Google to open some records to U.S. Justice Dept.

Updated Wed. Mar. 15 2006 11:31 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Google Inc. will be forced to open some of its records to the U.S. Justice Department but will not have to provide data on the specific search results of individual people who use the search engine..........

[theloniusfleabag]

In response to...

People in China are terrified of Falun Gong, afraid to even talk about it because they could be killed too, by the Falun Gong followers.

from...

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/china/China0102.htm#P190_7527

Despite its own protestations to the contrary, it also has a well-organized and technologically sophisticated following and has deliberately chosen a policy of confrontation with authorities. But the confrontations have been peaceful. Apart from those held in connection with the self-immolation suicides in Beijing in January 2001, none of the tens of thousands of Falungong practitioners detained, arrested, or convicted have been held in connection with violent actions or threats of violence

(emphasis added)

as to this...

1. The one-child policy has become a thing of the past. I routinely speak to people who have more than one child; in fact, our secretary is expecting her second child.

from...

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html

From 100 to 150 million surplus rural workers are adrift between the villages and the cities, many subsisting through part-time, low-paying jobs. One demographic consequence of the "one child" policy is that China is now one of the most rapidly aging countries in the world.

4. Freedom of religion is expanding.

from the same source (CIA world Factbook...

Religions:

Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Christian 3%-4%, Muslim 1%-2%

note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

[Live From China]

I would hardly considered the CIA Factbook an objective source (probably a preferred reference for China haters though).

I think this is more balanced:

http://www.peopleandplanet.net/doc.php?id=771

More flexibility

However, as the first generation of children of one-child families has now entered childbearing age, couples in most provinces and regions will be allowed more flexibility in planning their families. Statistics show that except for Henan, Hubei and Gansu Provinces and Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, where local governments have decided to continue the one-child pattern, the other 27 provinces and regions in China allow couples who are both adult children from one-child families to have two children.

"This is not a sign that the Chinese government is making major changes to its family planning policy, and the policy will not greatly affect the

population size of the country," said Chen. "The one-child policy was only directed at one generation, as was stated in the open letter in 1980, and the policy means to keep the promise."

His words are echoed by Tian Xueyuan, general deputy president of the Population Association of China, who was involved in the drafting of the

family planning policy in 1980: “ No country dares to practice the one-child pattern for more than one generation, because this will result in an imbalance in the population, in which there are fewer young people than elderly people, who need to be taken care of."

Pretty good, eh? And very perceptive for people who are only capable of rote learning!

How does the CIA "Factbook" contradict that religious freedom is expanding?

And what do you know: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/03/business...=rssnyt&emc=rss

Kind gives your CIA "Factbook" a bit of a kick in the teeth, doesn't it? In fact, this whole issue of labor shortages in China has been a really headline in a few business magazines. I will try to find a few more articles that are a little more gutsy and substantial than your sources.

Also: I am here witnessing these changes happening. Sure, I only see a little slice of China but it seems my observations are backed up by sociologists and the business community. And you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until after the 2008 Olympics! I guarantee that your sources will end up in the garbage!

[Kindred]

You are sending links to articles from 1999 regardin Falun Gong, your other link (CIA) show a birth rate of 1.5 children, about the same as Canada.

If you are using Google to search good luck, about 99% of your results will be information from the US. No matter how you word your search you will NOT come up with the sites that other search engines will provide. To me that is censorship. I for one am not interested in reading US propoganda.

Live From China posted the secretary is expecting her second child, and I met a number of families who had more than one child. Cant argument with reality. You can protest until you are blue in the face, I have been there, Live From China is living there now - you havent been to China, you can only look for "facts" on the internet. (Provided by the US via Google)

Furthermore the One Child policy was implimented to curb the growing population, and has never been strictly enforced if you were able to look at this logically, and rationally instead of having a hysterical reaction to "loss of freedom and choice" you might be able to see the merit of the policy, given the population and the problems of maintaining and supporting such a huge population with resources that are, as in all countries, limited -

China chose not to become another India, where increasing population has placed on a terrible burden on both governments, and families.

The sense behind the policy should be obvious. Millions of people starved to death during the Cultural Revolution in China - does it make sense to let that continue to happen? Of course it doesnt, hundreds of agencies worldwide are involved in trying to teach birth control to impoverished nations. It doesnt take a lot of deep thinking to see the rational and sense behind it.

One of the results of curbing its population growth is that China is able to providea good education for the people it does have.

Look at India who has had no such restraints places upon its population and its struggle is just to survive, education is on the casualities of this burdeoning population growth ...

The increasing population is one of the root causes of the poverty . Those bent upon spewing communal venom will try to blame the poverty of Muslims on their religion but that argument would have held water if there were no equally poor among other communities. The unvarnished truth is that there are far too many downtrodden people among all sections of society, who are not able to move up the social ladder because of lack of education and there being too many mouths to feed.

As Syed Sadiq has pointed out, it is wrong to presume that Islam was averse to family planning. The example of Iran is with us, which has zero per cent population growth. Similarly, education is the key to the amelioration of the lot of the community. The attempt to apply correctives has to come from within. ....

.......At the same time, the BJP has also shown a positive grain by deciding to support the two-child norm. The policy of giving incentives and disincentives that the party has mooted at its Chief Ministers' conference can be fine-tuned to make this much-needed norm a reality. Curbing population growth should be a national policy which ought not to be demeaned by raising denominational controversies.

Herald Tribune

more here http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/03/news/india.php

Please dont quote the CIA to me an an authority on what is going on in China. Thats ridiculous - we all know where the CIA stands on any issue.

Furthermore we have been to a Christian church nestled in among the sky scrapers in Shanghai, met hundreds of Christians openly meeting and woshiping and China has passed legislation guaranteeing freedom of religion and the right to woship free of harassment and interference. We met openly with our Pastor in coffee shops, Christian symbols and bibles are for sale everywhere -

The Present Conditions of Religion in China

China is a country with a great diversity of religious beliefs. The main religions are Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism. Citizens of China may freely choose and express their religious beliefs, and make clear their religious affiliations. According to incomplete statistics, there are over 100 million followers of various religious faiths, more than 85,000 sites for religious activities, some 300,000 clergy and over 3,000 religious organizations throughout China. In addition, there are 74 religious schools and colleges run by religious organizations for training clerical personnel..........

..........Religious organizations in China run their own affairs independently and set up religious schools, publish religious classics and periodicals, and run social services according to their own needs. As in many other countries, China practices the principle of separating religion from education; religion is not a subject taught in schools of the popular education in China, although some institutions of higher learning and research institutes do teach or conduct research into religion. The various religious schools and institutes set up by the different religious organizations teach religious knowledge in line with their own needs. All normal clerical activities conducted by the clergy and all normal religious activities held either at sites for religious activities or in believers' own homes in accordance with usual religious practices, such as worshipping Buddha, reciting scriptures, going to church, praying, preaching, observing Mass, baptising, monkhood initiation, fasting, celebrating religious festivals, observing extreme unction, and holding memorial ceremonies, are protected by law as the affairs of religious bodies and believers themselves and may not be interfered with......

........The "cultural revolution'' (1966 to 1976) had a disastrous effect on all aspects of the society in China, including religion. But in the course of correcting the errors of the "cultural revolution'' governments at all levels made great efforts to revive and implement the policy of freedom of religious belief, redressed the unjust, false or wrong cases imposed on religious personages, and reopened sites for religious activities. Since the 1980s, approximately 600 Protestant churches have been reopened or rebuilt each year in China. By the end of 1996 more than 18 million copies of the Bible had been printed, with special tax exemption treatment speeding their publication. In addition, more than eight million copies of a hymn book published by the China Christian Council in 1983 have been distributed. From 1958 to 1995, a total of 126 Catholic bishops were selected and ordained by the Chinese Catholic church itself. In the past dozen years more than 900 young Catholic priests have been trained or consecrated by Chinese Catholicism. More than 3,000 Protestants attend the Sunday service at Chongwenmen church in Beijing each week. The Beijing Nantang Catholic Cathedral observes Mass four times each week with an attendance of more than 2,000. Of these, one Mass is held in English specially for foreigners in Beijing.

In the course of the country's long history, the various religions in China have become part of the traditional Chinese thinking and culture. It is traditional for Chinese religious believers to love their country and religions. The Chinese government supports and encourages the religious circles to unite the religious believers to actively participate in the construction of the country. The various religions all advocate serving the society and promoting people's well-being, such as the Buddhists' ``honoring the country and benefiting the people,'' the Catholics and Protestants' ``glorifying God and benefiting the people,'' the Taoists' ``being benevolent, peaceful and harmonious, saving the world and benefiting the people,'' and the Islam's ``praying to allah to give great reward in this world and hereafter.''.........

About.com

In a country of approx 1.4 billion people Christians DONT count as the MAJOR religion. Freedom of choice for the people of China is NOT defined by cramming Christianity down their throats. The Chinese have their own religions and their own beliefs, and the right to choose. Forcing Christianity on them would be taking away that right. People also have the right to be atheists if they so choose, man's freedom is not defined by being Christian

Many of you may have heard or read a lot of horrible stories about how the Chinese Government has suppressed the religion groups and how miserable they are as Christians in China. Don't fall into the trap of the propaganda, which has been carried on for centuries.

Christmas and New Year is not only for Christians to celebrate in China today. It has become an occasion that many non-Christians, especially in the younger generation, celebrate since it has become very commercialized just like anywhere else.

Christians still go to carry out the western ceremony and traditions such as midnight mass, Santa and gifts, etc. Electronic Christmas cards are being used. Christmas Eve is big thing in Hong Kong and Taiwan, where non-Christians will hold parties and young lovers will spend their evening to enjoy their big Christmas dinner. Not like the West, all restaurants, hotels and nightclubs will open for business, just like New Year Eve.

You can find Christmas decoration everywhere in the big cities such as Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipei. Actually most of the decorations you use at home are made from China.

Webiste from China http://www.index-china.com/index-english/xmas-in-china.html

[Live From China]

Well done, Kindred!

Your posts all well-researched, and obviously backed by considerable personal experience.

CIA "Factbook"! Get serious

[theloniusfleabag]

Yeah...odd. If China has enlisted Google to help supress the words 'democracy', Falun Gong', etc, one would think that China would want google to be the only search engine available...

If you are using Google to search good luck, about 99% of your results will be information from the US. No matter how you word your search you will NOT come up with the sites that other search engines will provide. To me that is censorship. I for one am not interested in reading US propoganda.

99% of google is 'propaganda'? I can't believe we have all been suckers for so long...time to use the 'ignore function'.

It always 'de-trolls' my computer for a bit.

[Live From China]

TFB, I notice you didn't counter with very much! Why don't you come to China and have a look for yourself? Again, you will be both amazed and enlightened!

You are so busy worrying about China that you are forgetting to look back over your shoulder!

[Kindred]

Funny how the teachers teaching Social Studies in China can access all that information on the internet. A lot of teachers just download lesson plans and printouts from the internet -