Why liberalism is destined to fail

[John Johnston]

1 hour ago, Barquentine said:

Interesting that it's the 'Pursuit of happiness" not just 'happiness" that's an unalienable right.

 

Is there a definition that fits every individual? Freedom from want or pain? That never changes.

Pain is necessary in life. It keeps you alive. 

[John Johnston]

It's interesting how a persons definition of happiness in life can change with time and personal experience. When I was young I might think that some desired material would make me happy for example, when other things like wishing a family member was still still living, or some other such event. These days my perceived happiness of what I want changes at times hourly. For example, in 1975 I was extremely happy to have a great job, in 2026 I'm ecstatic I am not working. And I am happy that my Dog is healthy as well. Happiness is relative. My greatest source of my happiness however is seeing other people being happy. Generally. Not always...  

51 minutes ago, John Johnston said:

It's interesting how a persons definition in life can change with time and personal experience. When I was young I might think that some desired material would make me happy for example, when other things like wishing a family member was still still living, or some other such even. These days my perceived happiness of what I want changes at times hourly. For example, in 1975 I was extremely happy to have a great job, in 2026 I'm ecstatic I am not working. And I am happy that my Dog is healthy as well. Happiness is relative. My greatest source of my happiness however is seeing other people being happy. Generally. Not always...  

We have no right whatsoever, to have happiness, wealth or anything else in life. Pursuit, is a good word. 

Edited May 23 by John Johnston

[John Johnston]

51 minutes ago, John Johnston said:

It's interesting how a persons definition of happiness in life can change with time and personal experience. When I was young I might think that some desired material would make me happy for example, when other things like wishing a family member was still still living, or some other such event. These days my perceived happiness of what I want changes at times hourly. For example, in 1975 I was extremely happy to have a great job, in 2026 I'm ecstatic I am not working. And I am happy that my Dog is healthy as well. Happiness is relative. My greatest source of my happiness however is seeing other people being happy. Generally. Not always...  

We have no right whatsoever, to have happiness, wealth or anything else in life. Pursuit, is a good word. 

Also I would be very happy if I learned to edit my work before posting and having to go back and fix it. But alas, happiness takes time.

[Barquentine]

21 hours ago, John Johnston said:

Pain is necessary in life. It keeps you alive.

No it doesn't. It just tells you something is wrong.

[Barquentine]

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Then they ask for (and get) a fourth...

No. By that time they're throwing up and crying for Mama.

 

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Even want and pain are subjective.

Want? Like hunger, like living on the street in winter? Pain, like severe disease?

 

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The west is soft and the world tends to settle imbalances, like a country that can withstand bombings versus a country that cringes at a 50% hike in gasoline prices.

Any country being bombed would withstand. What else could they do? London during the blitz?

And we may cringe at inflation, while in other parts of the world people riot over it.

 

22 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The west is soft

Compared to the East? Japan, Dubai, all the other rich countries in that hemisphere?

Is the US soft? Don't think Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... would agree with that.

[Michael Hardner]

46 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

 

1. Want? Like hunger, like living on the street in winter? Pain, like severe disease?

 

2. Any country being bombed would withstand. What else could they do? London during the blitz?

And we may cringe at inflation, while in other parts of the world people riot over it.

 

3. Compared to the East? Japan, Dubai, all the other rich countries in that hemisphere?

Is the US soft? Don't think Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... would agree with that.

1. I guess?  It is like those things, but not exactly those things. Be objectively measured more easily than " want ".

2. I don't know what the point is. Are you contesting my point? Or agreeing with it? 

3. Are you contesting my point? Did you think I was trying to say they had a weak military? I wasn't

[John Johnston]

2 hours ago, Barquentine said:

No. By that time they're throwing up and crying for Mama.

 

Want? Like hunger, like living on the street in winter? Pain, like severe disease?

 

Any country being bombed would withstand. What else could they do? London during the blitz?

And we may cringe at inflation, while in other parts of the world people riot over it.

 

Compared to the East? Japan, Dubai, all the other rich countries in that hemisphere?

Is the US soft? Don't think Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... would agree with that.

The US is not tough. They are a bully. With the exception of WW2 America has basically lost most it's conflicts. There is far more to War then blowing shit up. Everything they touch turns to shit for everyone around them. 

Just now, John Johnston said:

The US is not tough. They are a bully. With the exception of WW2 America has basically lost most it's conflicts. There is far more to War then blowing shit up. Everything they touch turns to shit for everyone around them. 

I mean the absolute Arrogance and Hubris of America deciding the change 5000 year old Civilizations with a couple bombs. 

[John Johnston]

2 hours ago, Barquentine said:

No it doesn't. It just tells you something is wrong.

Without pain you would leave your hand on the burner. So to speak. 

[Barquentine]

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I don't know what the point is. Are you contesting my point? Or agreeing with it? 

3. Are you contesting my point? Did you think I was trying to say they had a weak military? I wasn't

2. The West is no softer than the East.

3. The West is no softer than the East.

I'm saying I disagree with your generalizations.

[Barquentine]

19 hours ago, John Johnston said:

Without pain you would leave your hand on the burner. So to speak.

I suppose there are times when it's a self defence tool.

[Michael Hardner]

45 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

 

I'm saying I disagree with your generalizations.

Okay, fair enough.

 

 

[Moonbox]

On 5/22/2026 at 3:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

What's dubious about it? All of these things.... From the French philosophers, through the American enactment of a state based on individual freedom, to the eventual freedoms that occurred... Occurred... They're pretty well recognized as points on the same curve no? 

You're applying uniformity to a "curve" of relative "freedom" that's developed over thousands of years at different paces and that's landed in different places across the globe.  You're also making a lot of vague assumptions about morality and hedonism today that you'd struggle to compare to previous eras.  

On 5/22/2026 at 3:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

4. Well, there always has been kind of a governing body... Morality develops culturally, and I think Nietzsche talked about that But I'm by no means a scholar of philosophy. 

Pursuit of happiness as a cornerstone for a nation state is definitely different than what came before, and again, I don't think that's controversial. 

Morality evolves culturally, but a governing body restricts its ability to do so. 

Regardless, most people (and I think you) misunderstand what "pursuit of happiness" even means.  The US founding fathers didn't base their new nation on the "pursuit of pleasure". That distinction is critical, and if you don't know what I'm talking about then you can look up "eudaimonia" to see where renaissance and revolutionary philosophers were getting their ideas from.  

Regardless, you've already put 100x more thought into this than the OP, who looks like he did nothing more than feed the AI "decline of western civilization" and posted the shallow but deep-sounding moral panic it outputted.  

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

1. You're applying uniformity to a "curve" of relative "freedom" that's developed over thousands of years at different paces and that's landed in different places across the globe.  You're also making a lot of vague assumptions about morality and hedonism today that you'd struggle to compare to previous eras.  

2. Morality evolves culturally, but a governing body restricts its ability to do so. 

3. Regardless, most people (and I think you) misunderstand what "pursuit of happiness" even means.  The US founding fathers didn't base their new nation on the "pursuit of pleasure". That distinction is critical, and if you don't know what I'm talking about then you can look up "eudaimonia" to see where renaissance and revolutionary philosophers were getting their ideas from.  

4. Regardless, you've already put 100x more thought into this than the OP, who looks like he did nothing more than feed the AI "decline of western civilization" and posted the shallow but deep-sounding moral panic it outputted.  

1. I am not talking about a single point of time, but the progress of the legal concept of "pursuit of happiness".  I will stand by this: ""The pursuit of happiness"... gave us freedom of religion, pornography and everything in between.  "

2. Governing bodies have always been concerned with moral matters and so they're complicit in said evolution.  

3. Ok I haven't considered this so I may indeed be wrong on this part.  Let me Google "pursuit of happiness" so I can better understand its standing in the American legal foundation and maybe culture generally.

Ah, ok, well you seem to have a good point there: "

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase from the United States Declaration of Independence.^[1] The phrase gives three examples of the unalienable rights which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect. Like the other principles in the Declaration of Independence, this phrase is not legally binding, but has been widely referenced and seen as an inspiration for the basis of government."

So I probably have to recant my assumption that the progressive march of hedonism is related to some constitutional arguments as I suspected. 

Culturally, though, the pursuit of hedonism is an American hallmark and only a cold hearted robot who never did a bong hit while dune buggying and listening to Grand Funk Railroad would contest that.  My opinion only.

4.  Stop complimenting me, it's hurting my case !  The million monkeys at Maple Leaf Web dot com often type out masterpieces, so behold and admire is my advice... 

[Moonbox]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am not talking about a single point of time, but the progress of the legal concept of "pursuit of happiness". 

Pursuit of happiness isn't really a legal concept on its own.  At best it's a historical and rhetorical context.   

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I will stand by this: ""The pursuit of happiness"... gave us freedom of religion, pornography and everything in between.  "

There's no causal chain here.  Pursuit of happiness wasn’t the engine behind constitutional rights or decades/centuries of court decisions.  It's basically a slogan, and like I said, one that's being misused.  

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Culturally, though, the pursuit of hedonism is an American hallmark and only a cold hearted robot who never did a bong hit while dune buggying and listening to Grand Funk Railroad would contest that.  My opinion only.

So many things to unpack there, but I'll let it go.  🙃

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Moonbox said:

 

So many things to unpack there, but I'll let it go.  🙃

And when one arrives at the beach, they unpack their boombox and bong.. 

 

In any case... Thematically pursuit of happiness puts liberalism into a life context that gives meaning to it above the economic and political definitions. 

Back to the op.... The first steps were about weakening the ties between the nation and religion, or state religion anyway.

At that point we are on our way to Nietzsche and the death of God. 

And then a couple of centuries later... There is a grasping for some kind of meaning.  The true face of it finally comes up with Trump who brags that he pays fewer taxes.  Now that's something new, a new kind of meaning, which seems honest: make as much money as you can.

[Barquentine]

19 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Morality evolves culturally, but a governing body restricts its ability to do so.

How so? Doesn't the governing body just codify it? And it can go either way, depending on the philosophy of that body. For instance, the same bodies that overturned Roe vs Wade are the same bodies that brought it forward in the first place. The same ones that advanced civil rights in the US are now trying to repeal them.

[Barquentine]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

the pursuit of hedonism is an American hallmark

I would say it's one of the results of wealth, in any country.

[Barquentine]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

In any case... Thematically pursuit of happiness puts liberalism into a life context that gives meaning to it above the economic and political definitions. 

Back to the op.... The first steps were about weakening the ties between the nation and religion, or state religion anyway.

At that point we are on our way to Nietzsche and the death of God.

Damn! You guys are making me think too much. How can I do that and pursue my happiness at the same time?

I've never read Nietzsche. Just kind of know him as a cliche. But I have read Marcus Aurelius and I find that helps.

[Michael Hardner]

46 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

Damn! You guys are making me think too much. How can I do that and pursue my happiness at the same time?

I've never read Nietzsche. Just kind of know him as a cliche. But I have read Marcus Aurelius and I find that helps.

I got my quotes in the wrong order...

Your teacher for Nietzsche today will be Professor Rick Roderick,  RIP:
 

55 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

I would say it's one of the results of wealth, in any country.

Europe is wealthy - do you think the hedonism culture is comparable ?  I don't but it's more American than it used to be.  When I lived in France they made fun of McDonalds but they all secretly went.  Now i doubt they make fun of it.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Barquentine said:

How so? Doesn't the governing body just codify it? And it can go either way, depending on the philosophy of that body. For instance, the same bodies that overturned Roe vs Wade are the same bodies that brought it forward in the first place. The same ones that advanced civil rights in the US are now trying to repeal them.

Except in the millenia leading up to that, woman had that right already, and it wasn't something that the ancients had huge political debates over.  If a woman didn't want to continue her pregnancy, she'd discreetly inquire at the apothecary and that was generally the end of that. 

19th century colonialism got the ball rolling with banning abortion.  Chemical/herbal abortions were made a capital offense in the UK in 1803 and made illegal in various states starting in the middle of that century.  

[Barquentine]

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Except in the millenia leading up to that, woman had that right already, and it wasn't something that the ancients had huge political debates over.  If a woman didn't want to continue her pregnancy, she'd discreetly inquire at the apothecary and that was generally the end of that.

Don't ask, don't tell. I get that.

 

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

19th century colonialism got the ball rolling with banning abortion.  Chemical/herbal abortions were made a capital offense in the UK in 1803 and made illegal in various states starting in the middle of that century.

Were they just following a change in public attitudes? Or was it a minority pushing the agenda?

[Barquentine]

On 5/26/2026 at 10:52 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Europe is wealthy - do you think the hedonism culture is comparable ?

Yes. I haven't had the advantage of living in Europe (one short trip to Engand decades ago) . But don't they drink/eat what and when they want, Rave all night long, vacation in Portugal, enjoy TV culture, have recreational drugs ...?

What hedonism do we enjoy that they don't?

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Barquentine said:

Were they just following a change in public attitudes? Or was it a minority pushing the agenda?

In the UK it was, as is often the case, the minority elite pushing practices on the masses.  A completely male Parliament being lobbied by groups like like the nascent and formalizing medical profession who wanted to shove out traditional midwives, herbalists etc...

 

Edited May 27 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Barquentine said:

Yes. I haven't had the advantage of living in Europe (one short trip to Engand decades ago) . But don't they drink/eat what and when they want, Rave all night long, vacation in Portugal, enjoy TV culture, have recreational drugs ...?

What hedonism do we enjoy that they don't?

Dune Buggys, for one.  

They are also far less neurotic.

[Barquentine]

On 5/26/2026 at 10:52 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Your teacher for Nietzsche today will be Professor Rick Roderick

Watched that video and did a little bit of research on Nietzsche and found out I actually seem to know about him. Must be because his ideas have been so deeply absorbed into Western thought. They seem par for the course today, but must have been revolutionary in 1882.