Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[jdobbin]

Remember we JUST in the past 30 years or so have been allowed to practice our religion again. People are converting and actualyl quite quickly. I prefer the term "returning" to their original religion (spirituality).

How are relations between Aboriginal Christians and Aboriginals with Native beliefs?

[NativeCharm]

Scroll up please. its the little arrow >>>> to the upper right of the screen.

[NativeCharm]

Remember we JUST in the past 30 years or so have been allowed to practice our religion again. People are converting and actualyl quite quickly. I prefer the term "returning" to their original religion (spirituality).

How are relations between Aboriginal Christians and Aboriginals with Native beliefs?

Intense. to say in the least, for some folks anyway. I had an ol' freind of mine who was Christian who swore at me for returning to the ol' ways, swore I was a heathen and she couldn't save my soul. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered she had never used sweetgrass in her life and had lived on the reserve her whole life.

I was raised Catholic. Church with my kokum every sunday. It was until I took a reserach contract on residential schools that I lost my faith ( so to speak). I went into a really bad depression (6 months) and despite what my colleagues warned me about the contract, I took it anyway. I was truly mortified when I learned of the horrible and godless acts that were done to my forefathers. It was definitely a life changing experience.

[NativeCharm]

Remember we JUST in the past 30 years or so have been allowed to practice our religion again. People are converting and actualyl quite quickly. I prefer the term "returning" to their original religion (spirituality).

Honest question, how were you stopped before?

The Pope went to mass in occupied Poland, where it was illegal, actually, many Soviets practiced their religion despite a brutally despotic regime. The 'Traditional' (read: insane) Mormons pratice polygamy in Creston BC, despite it being illegal.

How were you stopped, pray tell?

Thought I'd help ya out.

Native spirituality was suppressed by the U.S. and Canadian governments. Spiritual leaders ran the risk of jail sentences of up to 30 years for simply practicing their rituals. This came to an end in the U.S. in 1978 when the Freedom of Religion Act was passed.

Some suicidologists believe that the extremely high suicide rate among Natives is due to the suppression of their religion and culture by the Federal Governments. This suppression is still seen in the prison administrations; Canadian prisons have only recently allowed Native sweat lodge ceremonies; most American prisons routinely deny permission. _ LINK

you're welcome. Anything else?

[jdobbin]

Intense. to say in the least, for some folks anyway. I had an ol' freind of mine who was Christian who swore at me for returning to the ol' ways, swore I was a heathen and she couldn't save my soul. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered she had never used sweetgrass in her life and had lived on the reserve her whole life.

I was raised Catholic. Church with my kokum every sunday. It was until I took a reserach contract on residential schools that I lost my faith ( so to speak). I went into a really bad depression (6 months) and despite what my colleagues warned me about the contract, I took it anyway. I was truly mortified when I learned of the horrible and godless acts that were done to my forefathers. It was definitely a life changing experience.

There are a lot of strong Aboriginal Christians in Manitoba. They won't hear any criticism of their religion.

My wife and I have no religion. I was raised in the United Church but over the years I have come to believe that Christianity was a borrowed religion from others that came before it.

[skyclad]

Don't know if this was brought up, but, Henco did approach the Six Nations Band Council about any claims on the DCE land. The band council gave a thumbs up. That was about mid 90's,

However, elections have happened after that, and the new council is more influnced by Confed Chiefs, and Ken Hill.

support of the band council on the protestors being on the land, the vote was 7 to 6 for support, with several abstaining.

Ken Hill attempted to buy that land but Henco had it already, after the occuption , Ken Hill tried to buy the land again, but no sale.

Ken Hill is the one wanted by the police for an assault in the Can Tire parking lot.

Also, Ken Hill is rumoured to be associated with the native gambling syndicates in upstate NY.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

"Brother! Continue to listen. You say that you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind; and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost. How do you know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book. If it was intended for us as well as for you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us; and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?

Brother! You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

Brother! We do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers and has been handed down, father to son. We also have a religion, which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us, their children. We worship that way. It teaches us to be thankful for all the favors we received, to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.

Brother! The Great Spirit has made us all. But he has made a great difference between his white and red children. He has given us a different complexion and different customs. To you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes. We know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may not we conclude that he has given us a different religion, according to our understanding? The Great Spirit does right. He knows what is best for his children. We are satisfied.

Brother! We do not wish to destroy your religion, or to take it from you. We only want to enjoy our own."

Red Jacket, Seneca Sachem May 1811

O:nen

[jdobbin]

Some of the biggest fights I have seen have been between Native groups over the issue of religion. Even here, it is possible that it could end in a fight between people who are normally of the same position on issues.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

Honest question, how were you stopped before?

The Pope went to mass in occupied Poland, where it was illegal, actually, many Soviets practiced their religion despite a brutally despotic regime. The 'Traditional' (read: insane) Mormons pratice polygamy in Creston BC, despite it being illegal.

How were you stopped, pray tell?

Not so long ago, the church and state weren't seperate. Schools were often run by the Catholic church, and Natives were expected to attend these schools. Nuns can be brutal. My brother was 'taught' to be right-handed with judicious application of a ruler across the knuckles when he was caught writing with his left hand. Not much different than the 'Originals', their language was called 'the Devil's tongue', and forbidden in schools.

In short, their language and culture was deemed 'wrong and heretical', and it was beaten out of them.

[yam]

. . .which includes the attempt of denying them the knowledges and stewardship of the land.

Such knowledges are generated over 100s of years. We cannot deny that really. Despite this thing called ownership of the land.

For something of a comparison we need only flick to the problems of US based SAPs (Structural Adjustment Programs)that have been forced in many third world communities in many diff countries (for export purposes).

This is not off topic since tribes, clans, natives, aboriginals exist globally. . .and can be/or would be if allowed stewards of the land.

Many locals used and relied upon the polycropping method to ensure a healthy product. However, US imposed SAPs concerned with profit making failed. They did not consider land erosion, soil type and more that the communities did know about from knowledges gathered over 100s yrs.

I wonder if we could say the same thing happened in Newfoundland concerning fishing quota's - the differences between local knowledge and scientific based knowledge. Dont get me wrong - im all for BOTH as long as it benefits the land and the community.

but polycropping uses less land mass per output in comparison with US method.

By far - less costly.

Is harvested much quicker

And does not exhaust the soil

Further chemical pesticides are not needed.

[Okwaho]

I'm not asking to hear about some obscure scrolls or secrets of the Da Vinci Code etc. Just the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling.

I take then that you believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected from dead three days after being crucified. This happened after a long career where Jesus performed a variety of feats that would generally be considered impossible by modern science such as turning water in wine. I pretty sure the actual events (if they really occurred) were quite different from the stories in the Bible. However, once they were written down they seemed have survived largely in tact because people could go back an check the orginals.

Here we go with the spin cycle again.

My question to your statement was simple, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling." I was not asking for a debate as to their relevance to truth. I told you I studied Christian Religion at Mac. Div. in Hamilton in an effort to know my enemy. In order to defend myself from evangelical Christians from telling me that I'll "burn in hell" if I don't convert!

[Okwaho]

I'm not asking to hear about some obscure scrolls or secrets of the Da Vinci Code etc. Just the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling.

A recent Canadian translation of the bible uses both male and female monikers for God.

Again my question was, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling."

As I have already stated I'm not asking to hear about some obscure scrolls or secrets of the Da Vinci Code etc. The "New Age" perception of "God's" sexual orientation falls under etc.

[Riverwind]

My question to your statement was simple, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have allegedly been altered over the years and years of retelling."

Almost every story regarding Christ's life and death has been altered over the years of retelling because their is no way any human could have done the things claimed in the Gospels and later books (water into wine, healing lepers, etc). Christians believe these stories to be true because it is their faith, however, it is unreasonable to expect non-Christians to treat these stories as truth. The same is true of native oral traditions. These stories are the basis for the native religious belief system and I can accept that natives believe them to be true just like Christians believe the stories in the Bible to be true. However, you should not expect anyone who does not believe in native spirituality to give these oral histories the same status as proven fact.

[Okwaho]

I'm not too well versed on the bible, but arent the alterations etc also known as "new testaments" etc?

Then there is the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon has absolutely nothing to do with the Books, Chapters and Verses contained in the Bible.

The Book of Mormon contains the "revelations" of Joseph Smith the founder of The Church of Latter Day Saints (or Mormons). The first printing of the Book of Mormon was completed March 26, 1830. Along with the Book of Mormon other books are used. These include The Book of Doctorines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price and the Bible.

[jdobbin]

Here we go with the spin cycle again.

My question to your statement was simple, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling." I was not asking for a debate as to their relevance to truth. I told you I studied Christian Religion at Mac. Div. in Hamilton in an effort to know my enemy. In order to defend myself from evangelical Christians from telling me that I'll "burn in hell" if I don't convert!

http://logosresourcepages.org/idx_geneva.htm

[jdobbin]

Again my question was, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling."

As I have already stated I'm not asking to hear about some obscure scrolls or secrets of the Da Vinci Code etc. The "New Age" perception of "God's" sexual orientation falls under etc.

Hardly obscure. If you have studied religion, you would know that.

The different translations of the bible have dramatically changed the meaning of the bible over the years as well.

Why defend the bible at all?

I have no interest in it at all except as a piece of literature. I frankly don't believe much in it all.

[Okwaho]

My question to your statement was simple, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have allegedly been altered over the years and years of retelling."

Almost every story regarding Christ's life and death has been altered over the years of retelling because their is no way any human could have done the things claimed in the Gospels and later books (water into wine, healing lepers, etc). Christians believe these stories to be true because it is their faith, however, it is unreasonable to expect non-Christians to treat these stories as truth. The same is true of native oral traditions. These stories are the basis for the native religious belief system and I can accept that natives believe them to be true just like Christians believe the stories in the Bible to be true. However, you should not expect anyone who does not believe in native spirituality to give these oral histories the same status as proven fact.

Get out of the spin cycle!!! Your original statement was "Many events in the Bible actually occurred but the story has been altered over years and years of retelling -" From the Hebrew Messianic Text all the up to the Modern English Version nothing has been altered.

As for our Oral Traditions, they were not only recorded on Wampum Belts but, the one thing we could count on Europeans for was that they wrote everything down. That is the reason we can write in our language today!

[Riverwind]

As for our Oral Traditions, they were not only recorded on Wampum Belts but, the one thing we could count on Europeans for was that they wrote everything down. That is the reason we can write in our language today!

An oral tradition that is supported by written records is certainly more credible. However, not all oral tradition is supported by such records. If it was then we would not be calling it an "oral tradition". For example, some natives (can'r remember if it was you) claimed that Bering strait migration theory must be wrong because native oral tradition says it is not true. I am pretty sure that there are not any wampum belts that prove that natives were placed by the creator on this continent.

[Okwaho]

Again my question was, "Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have aledgedly been altered over the years and years of retelling."

As I have already stated I'm not asking to hear about some obscure scrolls or secrets of the Da Vinci Code etc. The "New Age" perception of "God's" sexual orientation falls under etc.

Hardly obscure. If you have studied religion, you would know that.

Round, round we go again! Let's stick to the original subject! We can debate the issues of who and what god is in another forum.

The different translations of the bible have dramatically changed the meaning of the bible over the years as well.

Again, Name the Books, Chapters and Verses that have been "changed" or "altered" over the years. I'm not asking for the diference between denominational doctrines!

Why defend the bible at all?

Am I defending the Bible? I'm asking a simple question. You're making exactly the same mistakes and assumptions that I did before I did my research on it. I'm defending a prejudice made which happens to be untrue when in left within the context of the statement that was made. Are you shocked by my honesty?

I have no interest in it at all except as a piece of literature. I frankly don't believe much in it all.

I'm not asking anyone if they believe in or not! Read the question!

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Okwahu, why do you care so much about what verses or chapters may or may not have been changed in the bible? It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion about Native Land Claims, does it?

So why are you harping on it?

If you have a problem with Christianity, then start a new post down in the religion/morals section... it has no place here.

The only thing that has been implied here about Native tradition is that since it is mostly oral history, it cannot be taken as absolute.

As an experiment, try this. Think of an original but complex story. Tell it to someone else with the instruction that they must tell it to another person, and that person onwards until 5 people have been told, then the last one retells you. When that person retells you the story, note how much it has changed... that is the problem with oral storytelling... everyone has their own take on it, and 'hearsay' doesn't exactly stand up in a court of law.

[Okwaho]

As for our Oral Traditions, they were not only recorded on Wampum Belts but, the one thing we could count on Europeans for was that they wrote everything down. That is the reason we can write in our language today!

An oral tradition that is supported by written records is certainly more credible. However, not all oral tradition is supported by such records. If it was then we would not be calling it an "oral tradition". For example, some natives (can'r remember if it was you) claimed that Bering strait migration theory must be wrong because native oral tradition says it is not true. I am pretty sure that there are not any wampum belts that prove that natives were placed by the creator on this continent.

The Beringian Hypothesis being a migratory route for all Native North and South Americans has been proven false by archialogy and geology. Although there may not be "written" records there are Wampum belts that recorded it. The crossing of the Bering Strait supposedly occured between 20,000-12,000 years ago. Are you aware of a site discovered in South Carolina that could possibly date back to 50,000 years? Even if it only dates back to 30,000 years it still falls well outside of the Beringian Hypothesis. It also would concur with our oral migration history right down to the path along the eastern portion of the continent. Here's a link. http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/17....dig/index.html

[Okwaho]

Okwahu, why do you care so much about what verses or chapters may or may not have been changed in the bible? It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion about Native Land Claims, does it?

So why are you harping on it?

If you have a problem with Christianity, then start a new post down in the religion/morals section... it has no place here.

The only thing that has been implied here about Native tradition is that since it is mostly oral history, it cannot be taken as absolute.

As an experiment, try this. Think of an original but complex story. Tell it to someone else with the instruction that they must tell it to another person, and that person onwards until 5 people have been told, then the last one retells you. When that person retells you the story, note how much it has changed... that is the problem with oral storytelling... everyone has their own take on it, and 'hearsay' doesn't exactly stand up in a court of law.

CHUCK U FARLIE!!! Riverwind brought up the subject so if you don't like it PASS BY IT!!!!

[Riverwind]

The Beringian Hypothesis being a migratory route for all Native North and South Americans has been proven false by archaeology and geology.

Recent evidence has shown that the Americas were not populated by a one time migration via the Bering straight. The modern analysis suggests that multiple waves of people migrated over thousands of years and each wave merged with the existing population. However, even if there is some doubt about the nature of the migration patterns there is no doubt that aboriginals migrated from Eurasian continent. There is no credible evidence that humans evolved independently in the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_mig...o_the_New_World

[Okwaho]

The Beringian Hypothesis being a migratory route for all Native North and South Americans has been proven false by archaeology and geology.

Recent evidence has shown that the Americas were not populated by a one time migration via the Bering straight. The modern analysis suggests that multiple waves of people migrated over thousands of years and each wave merged with the existing population. However, even if there is some doubt about the nature of the migration patterns there is no doubt that aboriginals migrated from Eurasian continent. There is no credible evidence that humans evolved independently in the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_mig...o_the_New_World

It's all still hypothetical! Maybe the migration went from here to Asia! Suggestions and hypothesis are not evidence.

[mister_v]

It's all still hypothetical! Maybe the migration went from here to Asia! Suggestions and hypothesis are not evidence.

When they start finding million year old skeletons of <i>homo erectus</i> in North America you might have a leg to stand on. Time to pull out your pick and shovel and start digging Okwaho, you may just find evidence contradicting all known knowledge of human evolution!

The smart money is on the migratory model to North America. Your ancestors were immigrants too.