Six Nations occupation at Caledonia

[Gerald]

Gerald,

Your obviously a very intelligent person and tend to argue in a far more rational way then Temagami so I'd be pleased to discuss this with you. I am open-minded on the issue, as with all issues, and my mind could be changed if I was presented sufficent evidence of course.

Now, I have a few questions.

1) Why do Indians (status) have an entitlement to free post-secondary education, free health care and don't pay taxes on reserve income? Or do you not agree that Indians should have these rights above everyone else?

2) Do you acknowledge that the protesters are impacting people's lives and acting quite hypocritically if their argument is that the government is impacting their lives?

3) Do you believe that environmental issues play into the debate at a reasonable level? How can we legislate environmental damage compensation? Are the Indians not benefitting through more transfers to reserves from our economic progress that has caused this pollution? Would Indians then be responsible for their environmental damage, such as the 3 days of toxic air pollution my community had when the T'su Tina reservation set their garbage dump ablaze?

4) What resource ownership do you expect? Many Alberta reservations lease their land to oil companies and make a great deal of money off it, I think this is fair within the current system. I can't see how you could ask for more?

5) What is your pragmatic solution to either adapt all Indians to modern society or to support a viable live off the land only reservation system?

Answer what you wish, I look forward to hearing them.

Education and healthcare are a stipulation in all of the treaties and these rights are to be honored by the crown in right of Canada "for as long as the sun shines the grasses grow and the rivers flow". This means forever. The resource ownership I would invisage is a fair and equitable share of ALL revenues generated from the sale of all natural resources be given to the First Nations so that we as nations can have an independent autonomy that would finance our own legal,political social and economic systems (with the proper check and balances of total accountability). This way the imposed system that is failing us miserably would not be in play and we can go back to our traditional governance structures that were probably the most successful governance models in the world. Prior to first contact we had the participatory democratic system that was overwhelmingly successful. The colonial powers that became imposed the representative democratic system (which most clear minded people would agree is a dismal failure for everyone) with the one size fits all approach. This is something that never has and never will work for First Nations.

As for enviromental damage compensation, most of the money goes to colonial lawyers and such and then there are ridiculous restrictions imposed on how, where and what you can spend the money on.

The pragmatic solution is for Canada to go back to the "Nation to Nation" agreements and treat the First Nations as actual partners, rather than subordinates. I have written many positions that have been taken to very high levels of governments both at the domestic and international levels and , sadly I will say the status quo will remain unless Canada starts to realize that we as the original inhabitants of this land are tired of being peasants in our homeland and we will start taking control of our destinies with or without the cooperation of the corporation called Canada. I do not condone violence, but the First Nations populations are growing, the cost of living is rising, the First Nations fiscal positions are shrinking and the First Nations frustrations are getting too strong for the leaders to control. Wake up Canada before it is too late...or is it?

[Riverwind]

The pragmatic solution is for Canada to go back to the "Nation to Nation" agreements and treat the First Nations as actual partners

The idea that native groups represent 'Nations' is a polite fiction created to justify race base rights. It is no different than saying the gov't of South Africa should go treat the white minority as a 'Nation' and grant that 'Nation' a right to create enclaves within South Africa where apartheid is legal.

Natives groups are ethnic minorities living in a nation called Canada - nothing more - nothing less. The only thing that should be discussed is what assistance can be provided by the country to a group of people who have been poorly treated by governments in past and a number of intractable social and economic problems.

[Temagami Scourge]

Good morning Gerald! It is wonderful to hear another voice working on behalf of the people to explain history as it actually occured. I've explained things innumerable times here only to be cast as a racist (I keep asking folks to go over this thread and pull out my "racist" sayings, but funnily enough, no one has actually done so, it is just easier for them to make false accusations.)

Any way, I'm heading over the the blockade in a couple of hours. A cousin of mine flew in from the coast, and he is itching to get to the blockade and spend a relief night. I'm going to deliver food and water. The Blockaders have actually been asking for baloney (EHNNNNNN!!!!!), so I'll by a bulk pack here in Toronto and take it down.

I understand you are new here, so please enjoy your time posting. I only came here because none of the early posters on this site could stop the "lazy, blood-sucking-from-the-taxpayer" rhetoric, or they were actually complaining on how Native people oppress them! Can you believe it!? There is one dude called Riverend who thinks that Residential schools were like year-long holiday camps and doesn't believe the extent of the abuse...you know "See no Evil, Evil never Happened".

You'll also note that some posters have taken exception to my sarcasm, but I simply do that because you can't say anything positive about Anishnabek or Ohnkweon:weh without getting a chorus of stereotypical insults indicting every Native.

Enjoy, I'll try to get back online sometime this evening from my sister's house on Six Nations.

[Riverwind]

There is one dude called Riverend who thinks that Residential schools were like year-long holiday camps and doesn't believe the extent of the abuse...you know "See no Evil, Evil never Happened".

Once again, you completely misrepresent what I said. Please give me one reason why I should take anything you say seriously when I see you deliberately manipulating the truth to suit your agenda.

You made claims about the extent of abuse and demonstrated that your claims were false. Yet you insist on repeating these false claims and exaggerations over and over.

[Argus]

comfort:

You've been reading this with some interest? Usually, that's what people say when they are about to comment on something they have no clue about.

Well then, you should seriously consider prefacing all your posts with those words.

[Argus]

Education and healthcare are a stipulation in all of the treaties and these rights are to be honored by the crown in right of Canada "for as long as the sun shines the grasses grow and the rivers flow".

I have to question this. Given the times when most treaties were signed, European health care was not particularly impressive, and many, many whites had little or no education to speak of. That a bunch of natives in the forests would demand white doctors and schools in all their treaties seems remarkably unlikely. Cows and blankets, maybe, but books? Hmmmm.

The pragmatic solution is for Canada to go back to the "Nation to Nation" agreements and treat the First Nations as actual partners, rather than subordinates.

When they don't require taxpayer money for every bite they eat, every drop of water they drink, the clothes on their back and the homes they live in, you can get back to us on that nation to nation business. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and the natives, by and large, are welfare lifers, not "nations".

[Argus]

Yes...let's call the army for every drunk that swings at a cop. I'm surprised the army didn't come in when the drunken Kaledonians charged the roadblock. they could've grabbed a number of the youths yelling at the peaceful Natives and got them into the army, where their violent ways could be put to effective use.

People who are physically blocking a road are not peaceful. Or at least, they're "peaceful" as long as you do what they tell you to, which is stay off the road. But that's like saying muggers are peaceful as long as you hand over your money.

The cops should move in and arrest everyone involved. But with Mr. Dithers Junior in charge that's not likely to happen any time soon.

[Gerald]

The pragmatic solution is for Canada to go back to the "Nation to Nation" agreements and treat the First Nations as actual partners

The idea that native groups represent 'Nations' is a polite fiction created to justify race base rights. It is no different than saying the gov't of South Africa should go treat the white minority as a 'Nation' and grant that 'Nation' a right to create enclaves within South Africa where apartheid is legal.

Natives groups are ethnic minorities living in a nation called Canada - nothing more - nothing less. The only thing that should be discussed is what assistance can be provided by the country to a group of people who have been poorly treated by governments in past and a number of intractable social and economic problems.

Why give assistance and continue with the dependency on the colonial system. We were nations before the Europeans came to this land. We are not an ethnic minority. We are nations and Canada is actually a nation within these nations. Your position of giving assistance is again maintaining the status quo and throwing a few bucks at us will not fix the problems your imposition has caused. Have your systems and governments give us an independent autonomy and we will show you that we can develop a far better system than what your occupation has imposed on through your colonial laws and systems.

[Riverwind]

We are nations and Canada is actually a nation within these nations.

Applying the term 'nation' to aboriginal groups is an exercise in political correctness that has no connection to reality today. You could argue that 200-300 years ago there were aboriginal nations in the territory of Canada but those nations do not exist anymore. Trying to re-create these nations is a political and economic impossibility.

Your position of giving assistance is again maintaining the status quo

I never said I wanted to keep the status quo. I would like to see the concept of a 'status indian' completely eliminated and the department Indian affairs closed down. That said, I do not see any problem with natives groups organizing themselves as municipal corporations that would own fee simple title to the land currently in reserves. The Hutterites have created a society that they seem to be pretty happy with by following this model. Most importantly, the Hutterites did not need to negotiate nation-nation deals with the federal gov't to get what they wanted.

an independent autonomy and we will show you that we can develop a far better system than what your occupation has imposed on through your colonial laws

The problems that exist today are a direct result of gov'ts that insisted on treating natives differently than any other ethnic group. This lead to an incredibly paternalistic system where the natives living on reserves were denied basic rights that other Canadians take for granted. You cannot resolve the problem by creating mini apartheid states across the country. This problem can only be resolved by eliminating all legal distinctions between Canadians based on who their ancestors were.

[Temagami Scourge]

Go figure....

the Six Nations opened the Highway 6 blockade today (completely) to honour Bread and Cheese day, the yearly Victoria day feast that reaffirms the treaty between the Six Nations and the Crown.

What do the Caledonians do? They attack the Natives after the blockade is open. and I mean physically. Then they get on T.V. and blame the Liberal government for their violence against Natives. The non-Natives have set up their own blockade, and they are now blocking the road! This is hilarious!

Fortunately, the cousin from Nova Scotia that I went in with yesterday was right there on the front! You can see him getting hit by two Caucasians, and then he hammers back and drives them up the road in fear. The best shots are all the big, strapping Caucasian Canadians threatening small Native women.

A proud day to be a Kaledonian.

Things will probably get worse there unless the OPP moves in and begins arresting the Kaledonians. Word around Six Nations this weekend was that something was going to happen while the majority of people were at the fair celebrating Bread and Cheese. I called the rez moments ago, and folks were already leaving early and rushing back to the blockade once they heard of the attacks.

[Michael Hardner]

TS,

It's not hilarious, it's very sad. I was there this weekend, and there has been bad behavior and rumour mongering on both sides.

Argus,

The cops should move in and arrest everyone involved. But with Mr. Dithers Junior in charge that's not likely to happen any time soon.

I'd say the Province is most to blame for what happened, but many articles and letters in the local paper were quite damning of the complete absence of the Harper government in this crisis. One letter writer admonished readers to not vote for the Liberals OR the Conservatives. Look for independent candidates to get elected from this point.

[Machinations]

Go figure....

the Six Nations opened the Highway 6 blockade today (completely) to honour Bread and Cheese day, the yearly Victoria day feast that reaffirms the treaty between the Six Nations and the Crown.

What do the Caledonians do? They attack the Natives after the blockade is open. and I mean physically. Then they get on T.V. and blame the Liberal government for their violence against Natives. The non-Natives have set up their own blockade, and they are now blocking the road! This is hilarious!

Fortunately, the cousin from Nova Scotia that I went in with yesterday was right there on the front! You can see him getting hit by two Caucasians, and then he hammers back and drives them up the road in fear. The best shots are all the big, strapping Caucasian Canadians threatening small Native women.

A proud day to be a Kaledonian.

Things will probably get worse there unless the OPP moves in and begins arresting the Kaledonians. Word around Six Nations this weekend was that something was going to happen while the majority of people were at the fair celebrating Bread and Cheese. I called the rez moments ago, and folks were already leaving early and rushing back to the blockade once they heard of the attacks.

Most of your posts are characterized by your antagonism and your seeming refusal to accept lines of argument which contradict your own position.

I hope what you saw in that shameful video today, as I did, was the beginning of a sea change in Canadian policy vis-a-vis the aboriginal population.

I noticed you neglected to report the use of a backhoe which has not only ruined the road, but also knocked out the power to the city of Caledonia. All acceptable actions, no doubt, to you - against the racist monolith that is the Canadian government. If a few innocents were inconvenienced, who cares - I mean, clearly their ancestors were evil racist oppressors as well, and therefore, this is karma.

I would appreciate if you could expound on what exactly you would like to see the future hold for the Six Nations people. Should Canada continue to maintain what is, essentially, a two-tier society? I think your vision of the future is vague, at best, only seeing some sort of permanent relationship that involves, what, a seperate state?

What aggravates most right-minded individuals about this the most is the double standard. No ordinary citizen could hold a protest which involved the destruction of public property (the road and the hydro lines) and not be held accountable. This is the single, unalienable fact - there is a rule of law in this country, and it should apply to all humans equally. If the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty occupied a road and denied its use to ordinary citizens, they would be arrested faster than you could shout 'discrimination'. In fact, Ill cite for you:

Meant to be a one-night occupation in conjunction with a weekend of protest against the ruling provincial conservative party's leadership convention, the Mission Press squat was brutally repressed and evicted in a couple of hours resulting in over 60 arrests.

From http://nefac.net/?q=node/103

Surely my cite is as valid as the ones you have used in your various and rambling screeds.

You try to spin the argument into various tangents about historical wrongs - all of which are irrelevant. The fact is, the protesters are breaking the law. Ergo, they should be arrested.

As an aside, one tangent does intrest me - your declaration that the Indian Act is somehow a treaty between the Six Nations and the Canadian government. As I believe has been pointed out to you repeatedly, this is not the case - it is in fact a piece of Canadian law that made political concessions to Six Nations leaders - however, it can and most certainly will be changed unilaterally.

Further, concerning those treaties undertaken by both the English and the French governments which present courts have accepted as binding - I presume you are aware that the foundation of that decision is based on Canada being part of the Commonwealth. Were Canada to abolish (as many smart people propose) the link to the Crown, we would in one fell swoop lose the useless office of the Governor-General and the rubberstamp authority of the British Monarchy AND the outdated treaties signed hundreds of years ago by foreign governments. Imagine.

The current confrontational attitude we are seeing in Caledonia and from Teragami's posts will only inflame the resentment amongst ordinary, non-racist, help-your-neighbour Canadians. You can only tolerate this kind of lawlessness for so long. Say what you will about the past, but we live in the present and for the future. This kind of action, as we're seeing, reminds me of the precept: 'An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.'

[geoffrey]

Well now that it seems like the government has ceded to the criminals, by issuing a moritorium on development of the land, we are in for more protests across the country. We've shown that Canada has no backbone, that we will easily give in to illegal protests.

As one of those crazy Albertan folk, I truly hate Pierre Trudeau. But I'll give him credit for one thing. Rule of law was a priority for the man, and he was unwilling to yield or compromise with those that didn't obey the law. The way he handled the FLQ crisis showed Quebecois terrorists that in Canada, that's simply not the way we do business. What McGuinty has shown by giving in to demands, is that illegal protests are acceptable for first immigrant populations, and that the government will bow to illegal force. This is highly dangerous. If I were from Ontario, I'd be sure to vote for the leader that would act like a Trudeau on this issue, call in the Army, declare martial law.

Show those Indians that the law in Canada applies to everyone, no one is exempt strictly because they are of a different ethnic origin. We've sent a terrible message to these revolutionaries in Indian groups across Ontario and Canada.

"Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but it is more important to keep law and order in the society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of ..." -PET

Go on and bleed, call in the army and arrest them all.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Firstly, I am white and I support the action taken in Caledonia.

What gave the Colonial powers the right to arrive here - put up their flags and suddenly ownership of the land was instantaneously transferred from the people who have undeniably occupied it for countless years.

I have read a post regarding the time frame of the land disputes. Some people feel since it happened centuries ago those injustices are unimportnat or have been somehow swept away because our ancestors perpetrated them. ( no one wants to be responsible for the sins of the father ). The Native people have been in a fight for their land and culture since the europeans landed. Nothing can erase the fact that europeans came here and claimed ownership of all that they saw - there was no sale, no agreement - but they saw fit to deal the land back to the people who rightfully owned it in the first place via treaty. And sadly even these treaties are not being fully honoured. The Native people as a whole have been slowly pushed back by european government up to the present day. And they have suffered in virtual silence because no one was told the truth, the whole story was subverted in the name of colonial expansion ( more accurately european coffers - If there were no resources to exploit for profit - they would not have come )

The media attention that these so called protesters generate is a good thing! I hope it spurs people to learn the truth and to investigate the facts - then put yourself in their shoes. I wish the government would live up to the promises made on paper ( the many treaties ) instead of ignoring what their predecessors signed and guaranteed in honour.

------------

Isnt it the law that states you have to prove you paid for something in order to prove ownership?

The fact that Native peoples were here first isnt in dispute - so therefore the burden of proof should fall onto the government to prove they owned the land in order to sell/give it away to european settlers.

If i sell something that isnt mine to sell is that a legal transaction?

Can i sell or give away my neighbours home?

Regarding, The Brant Treaty - It clearly states that 6 miles from either side of the grand river and ( if i remember correctly ) that tract of land would run from beginning to end of the river - one heck of a huge peice of land. From what I understand Joseph Brant leased sections of this land for a set period of time. Upon which no payments were made, and no one left at the termination of the lease.

Can the powers that be provide proof of ANY payment on this lease? and even then prove the lease was extended indefintely or " surrendered " as they put it.

I think the spirit of the Caledonia agreement was to ALLOW a road to be built. NOT to give up any rights to that land ( AND the surrounding land around the road ) This country is filled with this same story of land being wrangled ( through legal means ) out of Native hands. I will speak for myself in saying that I would have no problem living within the borders stated in the original treaty and paying taxes to this new Six Nations, not to the government of Canada.

I think ive gone on long enough - but in closing, id like to put forth a scenario ....

You are the owner of a 100 acre farm - one day the government knocks on your door to inform you that your land has been seized - your property now consists of 1 acre surrounding your house - you dont get a say or a cent from the rest of the land you used to live on.

Question is - How would you feel about that? And what could you do about it?

[Machinations]

Firstly, I am white and I support the action taken in Caledonia.

What gave the Colonial powers the right to arrive here - put up their flags and suddenly ownership of the land was instantaneously transferred from the people who have undeniably occupied it for countless years.

War. War is how nations are made, my friend. The history of the world is bathed in blood, and the lines were etched though battle.

As a previous poster has said, should I be able to return to Scotland and tell the British to get out of our land? Did you think that the nations and empires of the earth were made with handshakes and tea?

While this may be unpleasant - its the truth. When it comes down to it, the conquerors of history had military advantages that resulted in their victory. That does'nt make it right - but it is the way of history.

The groups involved in the incident in Caledonia are, as I understand, involved in a legal matter currently. Could they not have awaited the decision of the court? Or were they sure to lose, and are using this stunt in an attempt to influence the decision politically?

Please - dont expect us to sit on our hands while you spit on the law.

___

Your question: how would I feel were the government to seize my land? I would by unhappy about it, no doubt. Of course my unhappiness would be allayed somewhat if I were to be compensated for the land - you know, given something in return. In fact, government land seizures happen all the time. In the United States, this process is called Eminent Domain and is used to seize lands help by private owners intended for public use. For instance, parklands, making a highway, etc. They are paid 'fair market value' for the land, and then the title is seized. While this is hardly fair, it is necessary, and if I am compensated fairly, I bear no ill will to the government. I can simply go purchase land somewhere else with the money I received, no?

Whats that they say about taking lemons and making lemonade?

[Argus]

Natives groups are ethnic minorities living in a nation called Canada - nothing more - nothing less. The only thing that should be discussed is what assistance can be provided by the country to a group of people who have been poorly treated by governments in past and a number of intractable social and economic problems.

Why give assistance and continue with the dependency on the colonial system. We were nations before the Europeans came to this land.

No, you were tribes, largely of primitive hunter-gatherers, or occasionally, bare subsistence farmers. There's a whole helluva lot of distance between that and "nations". And if left to their own devices, natives would still be living in huts and hide tents today.

[Argus]

We did not and do not ask for"Your Money". The Colonial entity enacted the Indian Act making us wards of the state with no legal rights whatsoever. Once they did this, they imposed the Natural Resources Transfer Act or the NTRA, 1930 effectively taking away First Nations owned resources through legislated theft.

I think we can agree that the Indian acts which control aspects of life on the reserves are unfair and unworkable.

The dependence on government funding was imposed by your occupation and is nothing less than a control mechanism that benefits the colonial powers.

This is simply silly. It certainly doesn't benefit anyone to have massive groups of non-contributing citizens who are simply consumers of taxpayer funding.

If the colonial occupation agreed to let us have our own systems and we didn't have to depend on yours, the colonial sqatters would have the highest unemployment rate in the free world.

Fantasy.

It is in the interest of Canada to keep the First Nations in abject poverty as we are a 9 billion dollar a year industry of misery for you Euro-Canadians.

Silly fantasy. I think you need to go to school and find out what an industry is. Hundreds of thousands of drunks sitting around on welfare do not constitute an industry, they constitute a drag on the economy valued at billions of dollars a year.

The difference between the First Nations and the colonial people is that we are happy with what we have to live on and you people want more and more.

The urge to better ourselves is why we're flying spacecraft while your people would still be living in huts and hide tents if left on their own. And as for "happy" I don't think the degree of alcoholism, suicide, and drug abuse would not be as high as it is on the reserves.

[Argus]

Go figure....

the Six Nations opened the Highway 6 blockade today (completely) to honour Bread and Cheese day, the yearly Victoria day feast that reaffirms the treaty between the Six Nations and the Crown.

What do the Caledonians do? They attack the Natives after the blockade is open. and I mean physically.

Well, I wasn't there, but every TV shot I saw was of natives attacking the locals. And all of the natives were large young men. There were no small guys, no women, no middle agers. Smells to me like the Mohawk warriors, that group of thugs and smugglers who always show up at every confrontation to add violence to the mix had their way again. Saw a photographer get grabbed from behind by his camera strap by a native and swung around, and when he looked in confusion at the guy who had grabbed the camera another native, a big one, sucker punched him. No reason except that's the kind of thing the Mohawk warriors like to laugh about while getting drunk later.

I think in future the police should be blockading reserves to keep these kinds of jobless troublemakers away. They do nothing but cause problems.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

You conveiniently skirt around the fact that despite having their land stolen from them militarily or otherwise they were granted by the crown the tract of land for loyal military service - signed and sealed in the Haldimand Treaty - 6 miles either side of the grand from source to head. And there is no proof that they EVER gave that up - what is happening is that the establishment keeps ignoring the claims in hopes that they will just go away. Why should they?!?

The Canadian people need to understand that everything has been taken away from the Native people - and im sorry but getting tax off some very limited items in a store and being able to buy gasoline at a discount but only on the reserve just doesnt cut it. The healthcare and education support from the government was a step in the right direction but it cant come close to rplacing a legacy that could have been

-----------------------

War. War is how nations are made, my friend. The history of the world is bathed in blood, and the lines were etched though battle.

As a previous poster has said, should I be able to return to Scotland and tell the British to get out of our land? Did you think that the nations and empires of the earth were made with handshakes and tea?

While this may be unpleasant - its the truth. When it comes down to it, the conquerors of history had military advantages that resulted in their victory. That does'nt make it right - but it is the way of history.

No it doesnt make it right - and a select few of us would like to see justice done by honouring agreements made.

-----------------------

What does the fact that the europeans came here and took land by force have anything whatsoever with the fact that a signed and sealed document made by our governent is till not being honoured???

------------------------

The groups involved in the incident in Caledonia are, as I understand, involved in a legal matter currently. Could they not have awaited the decision of the court? Or were they sure to lose, and are using this stunt in an attempt to influence the decision politically?

-------------------------

The Natives are there primarilty so that the public can learn whats going on throught the media - otherwise history would just repeat itself with shady government machinations behind closed doors that the Canadian people will never really know about till 200 years after the fact. I really think most Canadians think the fact the land was stolen and that the words of a signed agreement are not being honoured to be disgusting. If the previous treaties were not honoured how do you expect themn to trust us?

Please - dont expect us to sit on our hands while you spit on the law.

What LAW - be specific if you can.......

I dont think they are spitting on any law - they are standing up for their rights. They are having a peaceful protest and doing far less than a striking union would.

___

Your question: how would I feel were the government to seize my land? I would by unhappy about it, no doubt. Of course my unhappiness would be allayed somewhat if I were to be compensated for the land - you know, given something in return. In fact, government land seizures happen all the time. In the United States, this process is called Eminent Domain and is used to seize lands help by private owners intended for public use. For instance, parklands, making a highway, etc. They are paid 'fair market value' for the land, and then the title is seized. While this is hardly fair, it is necessary, and if I am compensated fairly, I bear no ill will to the government. I can simply go purchase land somewhere else with the money I received, no?

------------------------------

What compensation have they received? WAKE UP!!!! Why do you think they are out there?

This land is not being used to support any public infrastructure - so your point is moot.

I am kind of surprised the residents of Caledonia dont realise they are not the opponents of the protest - the developer is - and he/she is only concerned with you guessed it... MONEY

Any Caledonia residents benefiting financially from the development? NO?

Whats that they say about taking lemons and making lemonade?

They have been doing just that - they had their country stolen from them - despite this they fought along side us ( and still do!!!!!! ) and in return were given a large peice of land to call their own - instead they are forced onto small peices of land and basically told to shut up and like it - or as you put it " make lemonade "

You make your lemonade after your people have been segregated, discriminated, stereotyped and pigeon holed to death.

If this happens to you and yours I want to see you smile while you sip that lemonade.

Its Easy to smile when you hold all the cards.

The bottom line for me is that an agreement was reached long ago and the Native people have waited this long for the governemt to honour their word. I am not really surprised by the government on this, but i have to believe that the common Canadian knowing the truth about the history would be truely shocked and feel that the agreement should be honoured.

What really scares and disgusts me is that some of the posters on here - ( I believe ) are confrontational only because of a difference in race. Is it possible for people to post on here without the usual and unfortunately EXPECTED racial slurs ???? The Local residents have no real personal stake in this - and beside haveing to drive around the protest site to get to work they are not being inconvienienced

What do you think about the Caledonia residents putting up their own barricade when the original one was brought down as a gesture of goodwill - the only reason i can think of for them to do this was to tarnish and ruin a potentially peace bringing gesture - if cooler heads prevailed and they just let the road stay open some bridges may have been built

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

Once again, you completely misrepresent what I said. Please give me one reason why I should take anything you say seriously when I see you deliberately manipulating the truth to suit your agenda.

Why should you take me seriously? I appear to be more intelligent than you in these matters, I have access to greater resources than any you've put up yet, and i take the time to read what you say, digest it, and think of an appropriate answer (hence the rationale for me being smarter than you). That is why you should listen to me.

You made claims about the extent of abuse and demonstrated that your claims were false. Yet you insist on repeating these false claims and exaggerations over and over.

River...prove how false my claims are? I took you to two sources that indicated through study (and using actual residential school tallies) that 50,000 of 125,000 kids sent to these schools died. You completely deny this even though the two sources were creditted right there in the RCAP.

to me, you are either:

a) Someone who skims over detail, but still holds to their point for no good reason other than to not be proven wrong or;

a fool

I already know what I think, so feel free to deny the obvious. you are good at that.

[Temagami Scourge]

Argy:

I know that this was intended for Gerald, but he's not here right now, so I'll take a crack at it.

I have to question this. Given the times when most treaties were signed, European health care was not particularly impressive, and many, many whites had little or no education to speak of. That a bunch of natives in the forests would demand white doctors and schools in all their treaties seems remarkably unlikely. Cows and blankets, maybe, but books? Hmmmm.

To be a bit more precise -as well as emphasize how little knowledge you have with respect to the subject at hand- The treaties refer to "access to the medicine chest" which used to translate the concept of health care. You are mistaken about your inference regarding white doctors, but I understand why you'd come to the conclusion you jumped to. I hope this info helps.

Secondly, they didn't demand schools, but education. Fortunately, my ancestors did realize that the world was changing, and they wanted to ensure that future generations could take part in these changes, so they ensured that education was included. They saw the importance of education among their neighbours, and responded appropriately. That is part of the reason why you, River, canuck et al. get so darn incensed by today's Natives, because we are at a far more sophisticated level and don't jump for trinkets and baubles like you feel we should.

Jeepers, we are even better writes and spellers than many of you. That must be imposing to someone like you whose view of Native's doesn't quite make it past the famous one-line "Ugh".

It must suck to be you.

When they don't require taxpayer money for every bite they eat, every drop of water they drink, the clothes on their back and the homes they live in, you can get back to us on that nation to nation business. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and the natives, by and large, are welfare lifers, not "nations".

Oh here we go again...the minute Gerald explains the plausibility of acting as partners, you run down the "whining Canadian" route. "Oh...they get our money, they get our Tim Horton's wah, wah"

Or put it this way....every Native here has said that the Canadian government made up these treaties, so if you despise the terms, then go after them instead of us, as we had nothing to do with anything after your great-great grandparents created the Indian Act.

Additionally, I've also noted that both Gerald and myself have made it quite plain that we really don't want anything from you.

Nothing at all.

In my case, and I'll say it again because no one bothers to read it anyway, but I would gladly rip up the treaties and forget everything about education, housing or health care as long as the land is returned. If everyone else feels that the land shouldn't be returned, then feel free to continue whining away about treaty rights.

Although people like to have their cake and eat it, this is not the case in respect to land reclamations because Natives aren't so incredibly stupid after all.

Anyone want a trinket or bauble? Does anyone know if Argus likes shiny, sparkly stuff? I think he'd trade his land for some worthwhile trinkets.

[geoffrey]

I expect the government will withhold the entire cost of the protest from the Indian welfare payments this year.

This includes:

- Fixing the road they dug up

- Re-building the rail bridge they razed

- Fixing the power poles and widespread power vandalism that has left the community without power

- All lost income from the residents

- All damage to the shops by the Indians

- Lost time for the cop that got hit in the head by a bag of bricks by a drunken Indian (this criminal should already be in jail for 10+ years but won't get a day because of his privledged above the law status)

I'd also like to see the Six Nations branded as a criminal organization and have every last one of them locked up, or kept in their reservation. They obviously don't understand what peaceful society is. The amount of property damage is just astonishing, yet no one has gone to jail. Their Chiefs are ordering this violence, and like any leader that represents the group, must take responsibility. All the Chiefs should be jailed as well.

I'm so sick of this conflict, bring in the army and deal with this bandits and petty shit disturbers.

[scribblet]

I expect the government will withhold the entire cost of the protest from the Indian welfare payments this year.

This includes:

- Fixing the road they dug up

- Re-building the rail bridge they razed

- Fixing the power poles and widespread power vandalism that has left the community without power

- All lost income from the residents

- All damage to the shops by the Indians

- Lost time for the cop that got hit in the head by a bag of bricks by a drunken Indian (this criminal should already be in jail for 10+ years but won't get a day because of his privledged above the law status)

I'd also like to see the Six Nations branded as a criminal organization and have every last one of them locked up, or kept in their reservation. They obviously don't understand what peaceful society is. The amount of property damage is just astonishing, yet no one has gone to jail. Their Chiefs are ordering this violence, and like any leader that represents the group, must take responsibility. All the Chiefs should be jailed as well.

I'm so sick of this conflict, bring in the army and deal with this bandits and petty shit disturbers.

I agree, if they had not set up illegal barricades in the first place, this would not have happened. They are not, and should not be above the law. Who's going to pay for the damages - the taxpayers of course.

Maybe its time to work out a solution so that they can be a real sovereign nation, with borders - and guess what - no more gov't hand outs from the ROC. Not that I would give them Toronto (well maybe I would ).

LOL )

Glad to see that the http://citizensofcaledonia.ca/What_Can_I_Do.htm website is back up and running. They have a right to freedom of speech also.

[Temagami Scourge]

Argus...given what happened yesterday after the Kaledonians decided to mount their own illegal roadblock, I can't help but support this sentence of yours from a few days ago:

People who are physically blocking a road are not peaceful.

After seeing the Kaledonians punching away at the people from Six Nations (my favorite camera shot being the Native kid being held by the two OPP while the white kid throws a punch at the Native kid...typical), I wholeheartedly agree on the lack of civility expressed by the Kaledonians.

At least now you'll have to agree that something has to be done to keep these filthy Kaledonians from flying off the handle at any given moment. The police and army should be called in to start arresting many of these kaledonian vigiliantes and teaching them proper manners....something which it is obvious their own parents didn't teach them.

In all, I feel badly for many Kaledonians. I feel badly for all those wonderful Caledonians who praised the lifting of the blockade by the Six Nations yesterday, and to see and hear the horror as their own neighbours turned against them and began to incite a riot instead. But I also feel badly for those Kaledonians who were began the riotting and their desire to accost and assault Native people. It was obvious that their society never taught them proper respect or responsibility for their actions, and I also feel badly for those young Kaledonians who didn't make the best presentation in the media when asked why they decided to blockade the Indians. Apart from being monosyallbic, their inability to articulate there goals and plans clearly shows that the Canadian educational system needs to try to prevent people from leaving school too early; of course, I can't totally blame the young Kaledonians because their own Elders set a poor example of how to talk and how to accept responsibility. For instance, the elderly Kaledonian yelling at the guy from Six Nations who invited him to use Hwy 6. The Kaledonian went on and on about the blockade, while the poor guy from Six Nations had this puzzled look on his face while he repeatedly said: "The blockade has been lifted, please use the road, it's wide open, why are you still yelling about a blockade when the road is wide open!"

Or at least, they're "peaceful" as long as you do what they tell you to, which is stay off the road.

No kidding. Maybe you should go to Kaledonai and tell those people to remove themselves from the blockade, and I'lll do likely with the Six Nations folks!

The cops should move in and arrest everyone involved.

I could get behind this too. Many of the Kaledonians out on the blaockade are "recent" people, new to the area, or young hoodlums on a drunken rampage. They are nothing like the old-time Caledonians who look down on their neighbours at the blockade and wonder who they think they are.

Even the old-time Caledonians remark that the Hennings are more of the problem since they have such an influence over town council. In fact, those old-time Caledonians maintain that it was the Henning's influence that got them ownership of the 40 hectares....even though that plot of land was still before the courts since 1995!

Hmmm... makes you wonder how the world works sometimes.

[Temagami Scourge]

Scrib:

I agree, if they had not set up illegal barricades in the first place, this would not have happened.

I disagree with this part of your statement. The 40 hectares in question have been held in legal limbo since 1995, which begs the question: How did the land get sold to Henco?

Well, as I'm beginning to understand things, the Henning brothers have held undue influence over the town of Kaledonia because they are rich businessmen. I understand this as i've seen rich businessmen influencing local municipalities for years as it helps their business interests.

I've also come to understand that the Hennings managed to get a building permit for this same land ...using their own lawyers "proof of sale", which is one of the documents still being researched as to validity.

How can land under limbo be sold when there is still a question as to ownership? Some townsfolk have pointed at many contrary documents that "prove" the legality of the sale, and yet why hasn't the Federal government ever used these documents -which they are well aware of- unless other documents exist which creates the question?

therefore, given this new knowledge, I think the Hennings should make more of an investment now that it appears that their own greed contributed greatly to what is transpiring, eh?

Maybe its time to work out a solution so that they can be a real sovereign nation, with borders

Glad to, as long as you promise not to interfere in our decisions. I promise not to interfere in yours.