Make America great again means more just, not more rich

[Videospirit]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No, I think I asked him about salvation.  He said he didn't know.

 

Wow!   So what is the Bible all about then?  

A central teaching in the Bible is the way of salvation, that is, how to get to heaven and have eternal life.

How can you say a thing like that?  Have you read heard the gospel message?  Do you not realize what you are saying is totally contrary to the central teaching of Christianity and the Bible?

Probably the most well known verse in the Bible is John 3:16 KJV

"16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

That is a core message of the Bible.  It is all about the way of salvation.

Salvation, and "how to get to heaven and have eternal life" are not the same thing.

The knowledge of how to get to heaven and have eternal life is granted to you by Salvation, but the way to do that is not itself Salvation.

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Videospirit said:

Salvation, and "how to get to heaven and have eternal life" are not the same thing.

The knowledge of how to get to heaven and have eternal life is granted to you by Salvation, but the way to do that is not itself Salvation.

The Oxford dictionary says salvation - Fact or state of being saved from sin & its consequences.

Normal Christian understanding I have heard over decades has always been that salvation mean forgiveness from sin and receiving eternal life at the time one is saved.  That is the normal evangelical or Bible-believer belief.

I never said the way to get eternal life is just explained by the word salvation alone.   The way of salvation is in verses such as John 3:16 and many other verses.  It is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. 

 You are playing word games now.

Salvation in the Christian sense, does mean receiving eternal life.  Not complicated at all.  

[Videospirit]

27 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Oxford dictionary says salvation - Fact or state of being saved from sin & its consequences.

Normal Christian understanding I have heard over decades has always been that salvation mean forgiveness from sin and receiving eternal life at the time one is saved.  That is the normal evangelical or Bible-believer belief.

I never said the way to get eternal life is just explained by the word salvation alone.   The way of salvation is in verses such as John 3:16 and many other verses.  It is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. 

 You are playing word games now.

Salvation in the Christian sense, does mean receiving eternal life.  Not complicated at all.  

Salvation in the biblical sense primarily refers to original sin. The sin of not knowing god. So many of the verses of the bible that specifically talk about salvation, are explicitly talking about "Salvation from original sin." and just using the word Salvation. Effectively, these verses are only referring to how to know god, not some way to obtain a universal salvation from all sins you commit in the future and a guarantee that you will be allowed into heaven.

The bible says your acts will be judged after you die. "Salvation"(The knowledge of god) alone does not mean you can get into heaven, it is by faith that you become worthy of heaven. God wills that you perform acts, and god knows if you had faith, and if you do not have faith you will not be found worthy of heaven.

Edited February 20 by Videospirit

[blackbird]

37 minutes ago, Videospirit said:

Salvation in the biblical sense primarily refers to original sin.

No it does not refer to original sin.

Salvation in the Biblical context, has a variety of meanings and uses.  One would have to examine the context in which it is used.

This webpage has a long article describing the use of the word salvation.

Salvation - Biblical Meaning and Definition in Christianity

I have used the word to refer to being saved from sin and receiving eternal life.  This is a common use of the word among evangelicals.

"9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 

10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:"

   1 Peter 1:9, 10 KJV 

Edited February 20 by blackbird

[Videospirit]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I have used the word to refer to being saved from sin and receiving eternal life.  This is a common use of the word among evangelicals.

Well at the very least, we can agree that claiming salvation has the same meaning every time the word is used in the bible is not a true statement. 

If that's what you mean by the word salvation, that definition can never be applied during life, for eternal life can only be received after judgement, and judgement always happens after death. 

[Gaétan]

On 2/19/2025 at 7:57 AM, blackbird said:

Nobody can observe his commands perfectly.  You are confusing faith with doing good works.   I quoted verses to you to show you that we are not justified by works, (Eph. 2:8, 9) but you ignored it.  You are ignoring what the Bible says in countless places or misinterpreting it.  One must be born again.  One becomes a child of God by faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for his sins.  

It is obvious you do not understand the gospel or what the Bible teaches about salvation or justification.  You are in a very dangerous position.  You need to start paying attention to what the Bible says.  You are cherry picking one or two verses and claiming that is what salvation means but that contradicts over a hundred other verses.  You have to interpret the Bible in the light of what many other verses are saying.   They say salvation is by faith.  The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans, Ephesians, Galatians that faith and works are two different things.  Faith is believing.  Works are doing something.  Therefore it is wrong to say faith is works.  One must become a child of God by the new birth before he can do good works for God. You must become a child of God by being born again.  The Apostle Paul says in different places that salvation is not by works.  Read chapters 3, 4, and 5 of Romans which the Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  

You also talk as if the only God-inspired part of the Bible is what it records as Jesus' direct words in the gospels.  That is your first mistake.  Do you understand Jesus is the Son of God?  Some Bibles print Jesus' words He spoke while on earth in red.  That doesn't mean the rest of the Bible is any less inspired by God.  Jesus inspired men to write the whole Bible. The whole Bible is inspired by God.  The Bible says in came from God in many places and ways.  The Apostle Paul wrote his Epistles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  

It even says "16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."  2 Timothy 3:16 KJV

Are you willing to accept that the Bible is written by men inspired by God?

Everyone receives inspirations from the Holy Spirit, but it is you who decides whether or not to let yourself be inspired by them.

Jesus says this:

Jn 14.6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus says he his the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through him, not by Paul, Moses or who ever but by him so don't beleive anybody but himself.

Jn 14.12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 

So for Jesus believing is acting, if I believe I shouldn't consume sugar because of my diabetes, I act accordingly, if I consume it, I don't really believe it.

 When the baby is born the mother rejects the liquid with the baby, this is what it means to be born of water and to be born of spirit is to leave your body at your death and become aware of yourself in the other life, these words must be taken literally not figuratively. You cannot enter the Kingdom with your material body but only spiritual

[Videospirit]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Everyone receives inspirations from the Holy Spirit, but it is you who decides whether or not to let yourself be inspired by them.

Jesus says this:

Jn 14.6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus says he his the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through him, not by Paul, Moses or who ever but by him so don't beleive anybody but himself.

Jn 14.12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 

So for Jesus believing is acting, if I believe I shouldn't consume sugar because of my diabetes, I act accordingly, if I consume it, I don't really believe it.

 When the baby is born the mother rejects the liquid with the baby, this is what it means to be born of water and to be born of spirit is to leave your body at your death and become aware of yourself in the other life, these words must be taken literally not figuratively. You cannot enter the Kingdom with your material body but only spiritual

I'm pretty sure to be born of water refers to baptism.

And you can't disregard the parts of the bible that aren't Jesus exact quotes, but they certainly don't contradict each other. It's a principle that nothing in the bible is contradictory. But understanding the bible requires faith. If something seems contradictory you must have misunderstood something, and you must use your faith to resolve that misunderstanding. Many use these misunderstandings to justify evil. Rejecting the core tenet of Christianity that one should love their neighbour, but if you look to the bible with the love of Jesus in your heart the truth should be clear. Although in my personal experience, When one of the supposed contradictions lies in part from one of Jesus direct quotes, that quote is less likely to be what is misinterpreted than the other part of the bible that you think contradicts it if you let love for neighbours resolve your confusion.

[Gaétan]

47 minutes ago, Videospirit said:

I'm pretty sure to be born of water refers to baptism.

And you can't disregard the parts of the bible that aren't Jesus exact quotes, but they certainly don't contradict each other. It's a principle that nothing in the bible is contradictory. But understanding the bible requires faith. If something seems contradictory you must have misunderstood something, and you must use your faith to resolve that misunderstanding. Many use these misunderstandings to justify evil. Rejecting the core tenet of Christianity that one should love their neighbour, but if you look to the bible with the love of Jesus in your heart the truth should be clear. Although in my personal experience, When one of the supposed contradictions lies in part from one of Jesus direct quotes, that quote is less likely to be what is misinterpreted than the other part of the bible that you think contradicts it if you let love for neighbours resolve your confusion.

What Moses taught other than a few commandments and the Law of loving your neighbor as yourself contradicts what Christ taught and to follow what Moses taught is to subject yourself to perdition. Jesus said do not put new wine into an old wineskin because all is lost. I believe Moses' father is the devil like the Marcionites.

[Videospirit]

47 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

What Moses taught other than a few commandments and the Law of loving your neighbor as yourself contradicts what Christ taught and to follow what Moses taught is to subject yourself to perdition. Jesus said do not put new wine into an old wineskin because all is lost. I believe Moses' father is the devil like the Marcionites.

The concept of the new covenant does not throw out the old testament in its entirety. You do need to be more critical of the old testament than the new testament though, as parts of the old testament were overridden, but the parts that were not overridden are still valid. The new covenant is an update not a replacement of the old. The new testament certainly doesn't deny the old testament was divinely guided or suggest that Moses was some evil figure. Such a declaration certainly isn't in line with the belief's of Jesus.

[Gaétan]

3 hours ago, Videospirit said:

 The new testament certainly doesn't deny the old testament was divinely guided or suggest that Moses was some evil figure. Such a declaration certainly isn't in line with the belief's of Jesus.

Jesus could not openly curse what Moses taught because he would have been stoned at once, but once he got angry and told the Jews that their father was the devil.

Jn 8.42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

The religious leaders of the time did not like Jesus because he taught the opposite of them as to forgive which is to put into practice the Law of loving your neighbor as yourself while their law of retaliation says to take revenge.

 

Edited February 22 by Gaétan

[Videospirit]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Jesus could not openly curse what Moses taught because he would have been stoned at once, but once he got angry and told the Jews that their father was the devil.

Jn 8.42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

The religious leaders of the time did not like Jesus because he taught the opposite of them as to forgive which is to put into practice the Law of loving your neighbor as yourself while their law of retaliation says to take revenge.

Yes. God can certainly tell if your interpretation of God's will is truly God's will, or a perversion of God's will, and the devil loves to convince the followers of God that the Devil's words are God's words. But this doesn't just apply to the Leaders of the time, even Christians can worship the devil as their father instead of the Lord, without knowing that they do so.

To suggest that Moses was one of these false believers is completely unfounded however. Jesus is not claiming that Moses words were the Devil's words, but that these leaders interpretations of Moses' words were the Devil's words.

[Gaétan]

3 minutes ago, Videospirit said:

Yes. God can certainly tell if your interpretation of God's will is truly God's will, or a perversion of God's will, and the devil loves to convince the followers of God that the Devil's words are God's words. But this doesn't just apply to the Leaders of the time, even Christians can worship the devil as their father instead of the Lord, without knowing that they do so.

To suggest that Moses was one of these false believers is completely unfounded however. Jesus is not claiming that Moses words were the Devil's words, but that these leaders interpretations of Moses' words were the Devil's words.

The religious leaders of the time followed the law of Moses to the letter and they did not like Jesus because he taught the opposite and the opposite of God is the devil. I gave you the example of the law of retaliation, pillar of the satanic faith and the law of Moses and Jesus denounced it, he did not say that the teaching of Moses as such was false so as not to be the target of attacks but he did it indirectly. Another example, taxes like not eating impure meat, respecting the Sabbath, sacrifices, Christ did not do them.