Milk Concentrate Imports

[August1991]

Sixty-three Quebec milk processing companies, including one of the biggest, Agropur coopérative, have joined Quebec dairy producers by signing a letter of support calling for the Canadian government to act immediately to stop the growth of imported milk protein concentrates.

....

The Liberal government had made a commitment to solve the problem by various legislative measures, which died on the order paper when the elections were called. A Federal Court decision last January 31 worsened the situation by completely opening the door of the Canadian market to imported protein concentrates. This makes it urgent for the government to take action.

CNW

This is an issue to watch. It is likely that the Tories will cave in and give the dairy farmers what they want. Harper says he wants to do the right thing for Canadians but even he has political limits.

Some day in the future, we will have politicians who have the fortitude to stand up to loud lobbies who insist on getting their turn at the trough.

----

Then again, maybe I posted too soon:

"The success of the Canadian dairy industry depends on producers and processors working closely together to ensure that the needs and demands of consumers are met," said Minister Strahl. "Maintaining stability and predictability is essential to the interests of both producers and processors and the overall health of the industry."

Link

IOW, screw the consumer.

[geoffrey]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

One thing, Quebec farmers refusal to adapt new techonolgy and become competitive.

[Slavik44]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

I didn't know Canada had a free trade agreement with the European Union. So in that matter I don;t think we can ask for free trade to be respected, when it has not been agreed to, and I don't think we can refer to Canada as a hipocrit, for violating a treaty that doesn't exist.

[margrace]

The one segment of the farming industry that is not going down the tubes and you want to see it destroyed. You have no idea what you are talking about. My son in law was going to buy a new milking parlour, mega bucks, so he took a little trip to Wisconsin to check out American dairy farms.

What he found is the the huge farms there are run by corporation who manage to grab all the American gov't subsidies. On the mom and pop farms he found situations that completely frightened him. In one barn the family milked the cows, the barn was very dirty compared to Canadian standards and the mother of the family followed the milkers pumping drugs into the cows to keep them producing as high as possible.

In Canada this is illegal, there are very strick laws governing the selling of milk to the public. For years dairy farmers have been warning Canadians to check this out. American milk, like their beef, is not protected by health laws.

I find it disgusting that the main things people refuse to pay a fair price for are food, health care and schooling, things we cannot survive without. But boy you have lots of money to pay an average of $650,000 for a cottage and you of course need a hummer to get to it.

On the survey on the G and M people were asked if they felt richer, it is obvious that they never lived in the 30's and 40's. People today are self centred wannabies.

Oh by the way, my son in law didn't buy a new milking parlour, he sold the farm, he could see the writing on the wall, get out while the getting is good before the banks take over the farm.

They are doing that big time in Southern Ontario right now.

[scribblet]

There's an article here on it that says a Federal Court decision has allready ruled on it, so what can the current gov't do, can they overturn the court decision? It was our own Canadian courts that opened the flood gates, so now the dairy farmers want the imports capped. Not sure if this is good or bad for world trade in general, if we cap them or allow tarrifs isn't that what the U.S. is complaining about with the lumber dispute? Maybe the WTO would rule against Canada on that.

http://www.dairygoodness.ca/en/Media/Media...4/06_02_01b.htm

Ottawa, February 1, 2006 - The Federal Court yesterday ruled that the Canadian International Trade Tribunal’s decision on the tariff classification of a European milk protein concentrate was “reasonable”. Dairy Farmers of Canada is deeply disappointed and alarmed by this decision that will illegitimately displace fresh farm milk in the making of Canadian dairy products to the benefit of subsidized imported ingredients.

“The judicial process is taking away the right to limit imports of these products that was negotiated by Canada in the last WTO round of negotiations,” said Jacques Laforge, President of Dairy Farmers of Canada. “DFC expects the government to respect its commitment to supply management and restore import measures to preserve the integrity of the Canadian dairy system.”

In March 2005, the CITT had ruled that it was more precise to classify the milk protein product in question as “protein substances” instead of “natural milk constituents”. This decision is illogical: under a food product’s ingredient list this milk protein concentrate would be specifically identified as originating from milk. Unless the government acts quickly to close yet another loophole created by this decision, dairy farmers stand to lose hundreds of millions of dollars in the coming year alone."

Margrace: Your rant is a little off kilter, I doubt very few people can afford 650,000 cottages, only the very rich can do that., and likely don't complain about the price of milk. I don't begrudge people being successful and earning more than I do.

Milk is allready highly priced, low income people with a lot of kids would certainly find it so. Personally I don't drink the stuff, its for cows.

[blueblood]

This is an ag issue so im gonna bite and bite hard. I cannot see how anyone could be in favor of an attempt to put our dairy farmers out of business, and whats worse they are foreigners, I say support us for the things we need and if we absolutely can't produce ourselves than import. For those complaining about high milk prices, go after the grocery stores and processers for artificially exaggerating the price to line their CEO's pockets, don't pick on the little guy from Quebec trying to make a living. Harper should cave in, he should stand up for our little guys. It's bad enough that grain and oilseeds are down the tubes due to bad government policy. Would anyone not in favor of supporting it be the ones buying cars made in Japan who is actively taking market share away from cars made in Canada in effect GM, Ford, Chrysler losing all sorts of money and having to cut jobs? I'm sorry the Prime Minister of Canada has a moral obligation to stick up for his countrymen above all else even if it means comprimising some sap from where ever trying to usurp the dairy industry. Where is our Prime Minister to defend the grain and oilseed guys from the big multinationals who steal our produce and screw us and the customer over making a killing?

[Riverwind]

I cannot see how anyone could be in favor of an attempt to put our dairy farmers out of business, and whats worse they are foreigners, I say support us for the things we need and if we absolutely can't produce ourselves than import.

Following your logic we should ban imports of almost everything since we could theoretically produce anything from cars to medical equipment ourselves provided Canadians are forced to pay high enough prices.

Why should an person who lost his job when his plant shutdown due to competition from China be expected pay more for milk? Why should that person have any sympathy for the dairy farmers?

[geoffrey]

Subsidies make industry weak. Our milk farmers will never improve processes when instead the government will just bail them out. Our auto industry has been destroyed by this concept.

I'm ok with the government helping the farmers become more competitive, but it is unreasonable to think that as a taxpayer and a milk purchaser, I should subsidise an industry that refuses to innovate and catch up with importers.

It's also more specifically Eastern milk farmers too. I have a couple family friends that are dairy farmers out here, and they are raging mad that they can't sell their milk cheaper (and therefore sell more of it). The government controls milk prices if you are unfamiliar with the industry.

So adapt or die. That's the way it works. No more corporate or AG subsidizes, unless its to equalise tariffs.

Definitely no more supporting Quebec dairy that focuses too much on making specialised unprofitable cheeses. We all pay too much for dairy in Canada, you can thank Quebec. A free market in dairy is the only way your going to pay fair prices, and the only way Canada will have the more efficent dairy industry in the world. Or you can keep funding ineffective producers as well as paying more for milk products. $2.47b came out of our pockets to milk producers according to the OECD.

Read this Fraser Institute report if you wish for more info on the topic: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/Milk.pdf

[August1991]

I'm sorry the Prime Minister of Canada has a moral obligation to stick up for his countrymen above all else even if it means comprimising some sap from where ever trying to usurp the dairy industry.

Uh, that's kind of the point. The PM should defend the intersts of all Canadians, not just a small minority.

Why should the several thousand dairy farmers in Canada get to, uh, milk the rest of us?

Farmers can buy cheap imported computers but the rest of us have to buy expensive domestic milk.

For the moment, this question is too political so you don't have to worry about any major change. Quebec dairy farmers are a well-organized and vocal lobby. (I have sometimes thought that Quebec sovereignty is politically impossible simply because of the Quebec dairy lobby and Canada's milk supply management system. But I digress... )

OTOH, these kinds of trade barriers are on the wrong side of history.

Why should an person who lost his job when his plant shutdown due to competition from China be expected pay more for milk? Why should that person have any sympathy for the dairy farmers?

I must agree but it does portray the free trade argument in a cruel light. It is trade barriers that are truly cruel.

[blueblood]

Subsidies make industry weak. Our milk farmers will never improve processes when instead the government will just bail them out. Our auto industry has been destroyed by this concept.

I'm ok with the government helping the farmers become more competitive, but it is unreasonable to think that as a taxpayer and a milk purchaser, I should subsidise an industry that refuses to innovate and catch up with importers.

It's also more specifically Eastern milk farmers too. I have a couple family friends that are dairy farmers out here, and they are raging mad that they can't sell their milk cheaper (and therefore sell more of it). The government controls milk prices if you are unfamiliar with the industry.

So adapt or die. That's the way it works. No more corporate or AG subsidizes, unless its to equalise tariffs.

Definitely no more supporting Quebec dairy that focuses too much on making specialised unprofitable cheeses. We all pay too much for dairy in Canada, you can thank Quebec. A free market in dairy is the only way your going to pay fair prices, and the only way Canada will have the more efficent dairy industry in the world. Or you can keep funding ineffective producers as well as paying more for milk products. $2.47b came out of our pockets to milk producers according to the OECD.

Read this Fraser Institute report if you wish for more info on the topic: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/Milk.pdf

So I guess you are against a farmer making a buck, and would rather see our money spent on foreign owned companies than Canadian producers who will in fact recirculate their earnings and spend it in Canada, nothing wrong with that. I have no problem paying for milk, I believe it is a fair price, and being that you know dairy producers, you know how hard they work, and I have no problem paying a little extra to support them. You also probly know that Canada has some of the most efficient farmers and safest food in the world. Also I'd ask you to check out this site www.nfu.ca. on the myths of subsidies and on what happens when the free market comes in, takes over, not pretty. What would you rather have 3 giant american corporations with a stranglehold on the dairy supply? You think you pay lots for milk now, just wait till that happens, you'll wish that we had our old dairy industry. There is nothing wrong with a producer getting his fair price and nothing wrong with the government backing him up, I wish the grain and oilseed sector had this kind of support. I also find it insulting that there are those who believe they are entitled to cheap food. I'm sorry we are very hard workers supplying you with the convenience of shopping in a store, if you think that food is expensive, grow a garden, buy a deer tag, buy a fishing liscence, or buy a cow to milk. A brand new diesel truck costs over 50 large now, I'll pay it as I know its helping out a Canadian factory worker make a decent living. I'd sooner fork out more for a domestic than an import where a person not only supports poorer workplace conditions, but contributes to a Canadian losing his job. I don't think it's subsidies ruining the auto industry by the way, it's a general loss of market share, I'm seeing a lot of toyotas, honda's, mitsubishis on the road and less and less domestics. I mean a doctor gets a nice chunk of change to heal people, whats wrong with the producer getting a nice chunk of change to feed people, both are equally important in my book.

I invite you to check out the www.nfu.ca website to catch up on the ag income crisis, it's well researched and very informative. That fraser institute article is pretty offensive.

[Canuck E Stan]

Easiest way to handle this issue,is to ban subsidies to milk producers,the same as we do to tobbacco and alcohol.

Why subsidize something that's no good for you?

Don't Drink Your Milk!

Processing Is the Problem

The path that transforms healthy milk products into allergens and carcinogens begins with modern feeding methods that substitute high-protein, soy-based feeds for fresh green grass and breeding methods to produce cows with abnormally large pituitary glands so that they produce three times more milk than the old fashioned scrub cow. These cows need antibiotics to keep them well.

Their milk is then pasteurized so that all valuable enzymes are destroyed (lactase for the assimilation of lactose; galactase for the assimilation of galactose; phosphatase for the assimilation of calcium).

Literally dozens of other precious enzymes are destroyed in the pasteurization process. Without them, milk is very difficult to digest. The human pancreas is not always able to produce these enzymes; over-stress of the pancreas can lead to diabetes and other diseases.

The butterfat of commercial milk is homogenized, subjecting it to rancidity. Even worse, butterfat may be removed altogether. Skim milk is sold as a health food, but the truth is that butter-fat is in milk for a reason.

Without it the body cannot absorb and utilize the vitamins and minerals in the water fraction of the milk. Along with valuable trace minerals and short chain fatty acids, butterfat is America's best source of preformed vitamin A.

Synthetic vitamin D, known to be toxic to the liver, is added to replace the natural vitamin D complex in butterfat. Butterfat also contains re-arranged acids which have strong anti-carcinogenic properties.

Non-fat dried milk is added to 1% and 2% milk. Unlike the cholesterol in fresh milk, which plays a variety of health promoting roles, the cholesterol in non-fat dried milk is oxidized and it is this rancid cholesterol that promotes heart disease.

[geoffrey]

Subsidies make industry weak. Our milk farmers will never improve processes when instead the government will just bail them out. Our auto industry has been destroyed by this concept.

I'm ok with the government helping the farmers become more competitive, but it is unreasonable to think that as a taxpayer and a milk purchaser, I should subsidise an industry that refuses to innovate and catch up with importers.

It's also more specifically Eastern milk farmers too. I have a couple family friends that are dairy farmers out here, and they are raging mad that they can't sell their milk cheaper (and therefore sell more of it). The government controls milk prices if you are unfamiliar with the industry.

So adapt or die. That's the way it works. No more corporate or AG subsidizes, unless its to equalise tariffs.

Definitely no more supporting Quebec dairy that focuses too much on making specialised unprofitable cheeses. We all pay too much for dairy in Canada, you can thank Quebec. A free market in dairy is the only way your going to pay fair prices, and the only way Canada will have the more efficent dairy industry in the world. Or you can keep funding ineffective producers as well as paying more for milk products. $2.47b came out of our pockets to milk producers according to the OECD.

Read this Fraser Institute report if you wish for more info on the topic: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/Milk.pdf

So I guess you are against a farmer making a buck, and would rather see our money spent on foreign owned companies than Canadian producers who will in fact recirculate their earnings and spend it in Canada, nothing wrong with that. I have no problem paying for milk, I believe it is a fair price, and being that you know dairy producers, you know how hard they work, and I have no problem paying a little extra to support them. You also probly know that Canada has some of the most efficient farmers and safest food in the world. Also I'd ask you to check out this site www.nfu.ca. on the myths of subsidies and on what happens when the free market comes in, takes over, not pretty. What would you rather have 3 giant american corporations with a stranglehold on the dairy supply? You think you pay lots for milk now, just wait till that happens, you'll wish that we had our old dairy industry. There is nothing wrong with a producer getting his fair price and nothing wrong with the government backing him up, I wish the grain and oilseed sector had this kind of support. I also find it insulting that there are those who believe they are entitled to cheap food. I'm sorry we are very hard workers supplying you with the convenience of shopping in a store, if you think that food is expensive, grow a garden, buy a deer tag, buy a fishing liscence, or buy a cow to milk. A brand new diesel truck costs over 50 large now, I'll pay it as I know its helping out a Canadian factory worker make a decent living. I'd sooner fork out more for a domestic than an import where a person not only supports poorer workplace conditions, but contributes to a Canadian losing his job. I don't think it's subsidies ruining the auto industry by the way, it's a general loss of market share, I'm seeing a lot of toyotas, honda's, mitsubishis on the road and less and less domestics. I mean a doctor gets a nice chunk of change to heal people, whats wrong with the producer getting a nice chunk of change to feed people, both are equally important in my book.

I invite you to check out the www.nfu.ca website to catch up on the ag income crisis, it's well researched and very informative. That fraser institute article is pretty offensive.

Careful. I'm not against anyone make a buck. I'm against people making a buck at my expense.

If you can't make money doing what your doing, its time to find a new job. It's this attitude that Canadians are entitled to one line of work for their entire life that has created the farm income crisis, among many other issues in Canada.

I also have a garden, going to get deer tags for fall and a hunting license, I don't see what relevance that has to farm subsidies though? I don't have any of these to save money...

Do you believe we should keep giving millions in subsidies to GM and Ford just to keep them in Canada? Do you want to pay twice as much for an inferior product, just to have it manufactured in Windsor or Oshawa?

It's not about me wanting cheap milk. The $2 doesn't really mean much to me, though it may to some. It's about me wanting Alberta farmers to be able to sell their products at the prices they feel fit. Instead, they have to sell at inflated prices to protect an inefficient industry in Quebec and Ontario.

Just because you want to fork out extra money to pay for inflated, inferior products in Canada, doesn't mean the rest of us should. I'll buy whoever offers me the best product, at the best value. Not the cheapest, the best value. It isn't even about imports though, its about farmers in Alberta (and the other prairie provinces if I'm not mistaken) not able to sell their products cheaper, even though they want to. We can provide for the entire nation at cheaper prices.

But God forbid a job is lost in Quebec or Ontario to Alberta. It would be political scandal for decades. Even if it makes all Canadians better off.

[August1991]

Geoffrey, that Fraser Institute article is fascinating. I knew the situation was bad, but not that bad.

Some highlights:

If the total value of milk quotas is set at zero, one can calculate that Canadian consumers transferred to dairy farmers $839 million in 2000. In addition, Canadians bore the burden of a deadweight loss of $200 million.

...

Farm gate milk prices in Canada are 41 percent higher than in the US and 135 percent above the world reference price set by New Zealand.

...

In 2000, [milk quotas] amounted to an average [subsidy] of $119,903 per farm for each of Canada’s 20,600 dairy farms. Thus, each of 30.75 million Canadians paid directly an average of $80.33 in 2000 so that each member of the average “dairy family” could receive $29,976.

... the owners of some 20,600 dairy farms have persuaded federal and provincial governments to create a set of policies that forcibly transfer about $2.47 billion per year (in 2000) from consumers to them, which

constitutes an average of $120,000 per dairy farm.

(My own pet peeve is the fact that Canadians have such a paucity of choice in cheese. Mild cheddar, medium cheddar and old cheddar. There is almost no imported cheese in Canada.)

IMHO, the article breaks down in its explanation for this bizarre transfer scheme. The article uses the standard "benefits are concentrated, costs are spread out" argument. Yet, the same argument works in the opposite direction for oil and gas and cigarettes (costs are concentrated on a small group, benefits are spread out). And why milk? Why don't we have a beef supply management system?

Someone some day may come up with a better explanation for the way government's move money between citizens.

Anyway, anybody who believes government exists to help the little guy would do well to read that Fraser report, and then take a look at all the organizations in Canada that receive government subsidies.

[blueblood]

"In 2000, [milk quotas] amounted to an average [subsidy] of $119,903 per farm for each of Canada’s 20,600 dairy farms. Thus, each of 30.75 million Canadians paid directly an average of $80.33 in 2000 so that each member of the average “dairy family” could receive $29,976."

Oh my goodness, a farmer is getting paid what he deserves, it's not like he's being lazy, it's not like he's a freeloader, he's probly contributing more to society than most people here. Lets not forget that he's pumping that money back into the economy and paying a lot more tax than the average Canadian. It sucks being audited for 80 large for one tax year. I don't understand why you won't pay what's a fair price. I mean our tax dollars pay for doctors and police officers and teachers, i don't understand what's wrong with farmers making that kind of money, I put an ag producer right on an equal footing with a doctor as far as usefulness. By the way it's not our attitude of entitlement that brought on the ag income crisis it's the lack of government support. I mean us getting 7 cents back on a box of corn flakes is a joke. Why can't they pass a law saying that we get 10 cents on the dollar for every ag produce sold down the chain of production. That is a minimal cost to the tax payer. Heaven forbid a corporation won't make billions of dollars in profit and if food prices get inflated that's the corporations being ass wipes. Why won't the gov't set up crown corporations to undercut the big ag business companies (crop inputs) who ridiculously mark up their product. I'll once again refer people to the nfu website. I applaud the dairy farmers, they got a system that works for them. If their supply management system goes, you'll get what happens in the grain and oilseed sector - a quagmire. Is there a problem that festers in city slickers that family farmers shouldn't make a buck. I mean if we aren't going to get a fair price for our grain and not get export subsidies why export, why not invest in biofuel as a means of supply management. What is the problem with people paying a fair price for products? That's a cheap shot at Canadians saying that our products are crap, our products aren't crap. The free market system only works when there are a lot of SMALL operations competing with each other getting the consumer the lowest price, the free market system when 2 or 3 HUGE CORPORATIONS who don't really compete with each other as there isn't much competition results in ridiculously high prices as thats what the precious free market system has turned into now and saying a free market exists with 2 or 3 multinational corporations is hypocrisy. There is nothing wrong with the dairy sector and nothing wrong with those hardworking dairy farmers get a fair wage for doing an important job. I mean when you go to the store you are supporting these people and it's hypocrisy to go into a store buy milk and trash dairy farmers for getting the price they deserve for providing you with easy access to a nutritious foodstuff. It appears to me that people are taking their food supply for granted, it's a crying shame that we are being looked down upon for that. Personally I don't think a computer is cheap, my truck wasn't cheap, I bought the "best" brand for them and didn't complain about the price. Good grief if your complaining about paying for a dairy farmer, then start complaining about paying for a teacher, a doctor, a policeman, and other jobs the gov't pays for, as they ALL are of equal standing.

[margrace]

The only farm industry in Ontario that is surviving is the Dairy farms. Other types of farms trying to compete with exporst of their products are going broke and losing their farms. Farms that have been in the families for 100 or more years.

Farming is not a factory type business, it is a way of life and losing it to big business who only want to put us back in the old systems the laird owning everything and the people bowing the head to them is wrong. People in my family fled from those systems in the Old country, they got their own farms and they did well. Now we want to turn back the clock.

Small towns are suffering here as well as in the prairies, Gas is up to #1.10 a litre and to shop one must drive longer and longer distances. I know that there has been a concentrated effort to promote farmers as a bunch of hicks in my life time, this has led to the downfall of our farms. Young people who work and live on the family farm are not as good as the city slickers.

Organizations that supported farm life have all but disappeared. Now on this mornings news they are bemoaning the fact that houses are so big on their lots they have no back yards. I have been chewing about this fact for years to anyone I could get to listen. No back yards also means no way to produce your own food. This is the ongoing waste of good land to put big mansions on the land and then it takes two pay checks to pay for them.

Canada has a limited amount of farm land and it is disappearing fast but no one seems to care. When a farmer can sell to developers and instantly become a millionaire we all suffer.

The Amish farmers still grow their own food but they are finding that they must have outside business's to support the farms. Something wrong in that scenario isn't there?

[geoffrey]

You guys are making similar arguments that the cottage industry folk made at the beginning of the industrial revolution. It's time you stop holding onto ideals just because thats the way they were in the past.

If you have no further argument other then that its traditional so we should pay people to live there traditional lives, then I'm sure your ok with the polygamist mormons being government funded, as well as the continued support of 'fishermen' in Newfoundland forever.

Your asking too much blueblood. I wish I could be taken seriously going to the government asking to gaurntee that my customers pay certain prices. That is my responsibility. If someone can do it cheaper, I need to adapt, change, and offer my product more efficiently. I don't go to the government asking for money.

Could you imagine what would happen if all businesses had gaurnteed profit? That is what your asking for.

Oil companies operate under a great deal of risk, more so than even farms, and they don't have gaurnteed government handouts. Oil is as essiential to our lives in the modern world as food, so really, what's the difference? Should we subsidize all junior ma and pa oil companies? Would you be ok paying $80 every year to send a $120,000 check to a junior oil company? Why not? Why are you special?

--

Farmer's don't pay that gas price by the way margrace.

--

The difference between my tax dollar funding a police officer and funding you is substaintial. The cop doesn't make money off being a cop, his salery is his income. Your farm is your business, you are expected to run a business at a profit. Your not a government employee, your a businessman, make a profit or close shop. That's what everyone else does.

Don't go quoting market solutions saying that a number of small providers is best. I'd support your claim there if at the same time you weren't asking the government to bail out unprofitable business.

[August1991]

Yadda, yadda, yadda. But I just can't let this go by.

Oh my goodness, a farmer is getting paid what he deserves, it's not like he's being lazy, it's not like he's a freeloader, he's probly contributing more to society than most people here.

Sorry, if a farm requires an annual subsidy of $120,000, that's freeloading. It's welfare.

You can scream and yell as much as you want but it's the truth and you know it.

Lets not forget that he's pumping that money back into the economy and paying a lot more tax than the average Canadian.

Why not let consumers "pump" the money into the economy directly? Why does the money have to take a circuitous route through dairy farmers' wallets?

By the way it's not our attitude of entitlement that brought on the ag income crisis it's the lack of government support.

Dairy farmers sound like David Dingwall. "I'm entitled to my entitlements!" (Dingwall in fact had a work contract. I don't know what justifies dairy farmers' entitlement.)

The free market system only works when there are a lot of SMALL operations competing with each other getting the consumer the lowest price, the free market system when 2 or 3 HUGE CORPORATIONS who don't really compete with each other as there isn't much competition results in ridiculously high prices as thats what the precious free market system has turned into now and saying a free market exists with 2 or 3 multinational corporations is hypocrisy.

It wouldn't be "huge, evil" corporations that would replace Canadian butter. It would be butter produced on New Zealand farms. The quality is excellent and it would cost about half the price we currently pay.

----

people talk about Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. Those industries have nothing on Big Dairy. Canadian dairy farmers are running a Hell's Angels racket and for political reasons, it's unlikely to change in the near future.

The only possibility I see to hit the farm lobby is on environmental issues; this is where it might lose.

[margrace]

Yes I have been listening to this argument for years from people who only work 9 to 5, five days a week. When did you last work on a farm? As I said the image of the dirty old farmer propogated by people such as some of these posters is alive and well.

Well there are none so blind as they who will not see and you cannot survive withoug food, go ask a few Africans.

[geoffrey]

Since when does everyone work 9 to 5. I don't. I don't get $120,000 towards my family run business to ensure its profitability every year.

Why are farmers different? They sell a product, they should be expected to stand on their own two feet.

It's not about a dirty farmer image. It's about wanting a free market in agriculture so that consumers get both the highest quality and the most competitive prices.

Peope are more likely to start starving under the 'never adapt, never improve' system we have now. Why bother having more productive argiculture when instead we can just hand out money??

The poverty in Africa has nothing to do with a lack of support to inefficent Eastern Canadian dairy farms. We won't starve if we stop bailing out farmers. There are many wealthy farmers, that know how to run a business. These efficient farmers will take over, and provide us with a higher quality, lower cost product. Last time I checked anyways, it was an oversupply of foodstuffs that was making our farmers poor.

[blueblood]

Since when does everyone work 9 to 5. I don't. I don't get $120,000 towards my family run business to ensure its profitability every year.

Why are farmers different? They sell a product, they should be expected to stand on their own two feet.

It's not about a dirty farmer image. It's about wanting a free market in agriculture so that consumers get both the highest quality and the most competitive prices.

Peope are more likely to start starving under the 'never adapt, never improve' system we have now. Why bother having more productive argiculture when instead we can just hand out money??

The poverty in Africa has nothing to do with a lack of support to inefficent Eastern Canadian dairy farms. We won't starve if we stop bailing out farmers. There are many wealthy farmers, that know how to run a business. These efficient farmers will take over, and provide us with a higher quality, lower cost product. Last time I checked anyways, it was an oversupply of foodstuffs that was making our farmers poor.

It seems to me that you take our food supply for granted. Those dairy farmers as you know work their ass off, I'll say they put a lot more time in than I do on my farm without question. They have fought very hard for a system that ensures their productivity and well being, why should we take it away from them, I know this isn't easy to hear but I value ag production business over lets say a golf business, I'll say that that dairy farmer contributes a hell of a lot, he's providing us with nourishment along with us, and it's disgusting that people won't take this seriously. I'll say again, in the long haul it's better to ensure that all sorts of the little guys are around, last time I checked milk isn't a king's ransom or anything. With all those little guys around and happy, they'll keep producing (efficiently too mind you) at a reasonable cost. What you are proposing is 100% free market, sure that'll be fine in a little bit, but as what tends to happen time and again it'll work out to a very select few of the super big guys (who tend to pay out shitty wages compared to being an independant owner) who will get a stranglehold, these are the guys who can afford to turn off the "milk spiggot" when they feel they're not making money, when that happens the price of milk on your shelf is going to shoot up like a rocket, some free market system that's what I call FEUDALISM talk about going backwards. If you don't believe me look at fertilizer, there are 3 HUGE companies and they have that price marked up very very high, if there were more companies the price would be lower, some free market system. I'd like to not pay for fertilizer but i have to to put a good crop in the ground and pay the bills, so they got me. If that's what you want to happen to the milk industry then fine. The reason why there is an income crisis is that we're getting pillaged by the food companies and gouged by input companies. To say the food industry is unprofitable is hypocrisy, all the big food companies are at record profits. The dairy industry has a program to protect them and its a shame your too ungrateful to want to support it, I mean I believe that we should get a stable salary to ensure the security and low price of the food supply. I personally don't want the government just to shell out just dollars for us, the input companies will jack up their prices and screw us over in that aspect and the fact we as a country can't afford it. What I'd like done is the government to "flex it's muscles" pass a law saying that we get 10 cents on the dollar for every ag produce sold, that's very very fair, costs to the tax payer are minimal at that, and we get stability, I mean Monsanto gets their royalties, recording artists get their royalties, it's not unreasonable to ask for royalties. The gov't should invest in crown corporations and co-operatives to cover inputs and establish some competition to lower input prices and provide jobs, that's not asking for too much. Put us under supply management so we get a higher gate price in the end. That might end up in higher prices at the store, but that's from a lack of competition at that level, and that's just corporations being greedy, and that's the case just buy Co-op brand food, it's a hell of a lot cheaper. Sure what I propose could make us farmers rich, but I say it's better us getting the money than foreigners as we'll invest it directly in our economy, and that helps everyone in Canada and reinvigorates the rural economy. That is why I believe the free market that you propose is a myth and that there needs to be some regulations like what is happening with the dairy industry which results in more people being well off and not us going back to feudalism and the calamity that's the fertilizer industry and Wal-mart (big yes, but still has to compete - sells for low prices ->once they get complete control of market up go the prices,). I'll say again that our products are not crap and made and produced to the highest of standards and no human rights abuses.

[blueblood]

Oh and there is no oversupply of foodstuffs, that is a myth. NFU website will put that idea to snuff.

[Riverwind]

Those dairy farmers as you know work their ass off, I'll say they put a lot more time in than I do on my farm without question.

I know many people who work their ass off trying to run a small business. Should they get a subsidy too?

Those I know this isn't easy to hear but I value ag production business over lets say a golf business,

But your beloved dairy farmers would go broke without all the 'golf' businesses generating tax revenue for the gov't.

last time I checked milk isn't a king's ransom or anything.

It's not about the price of milk. It is a about politicians taking money from profitable enterprises and using it to buy votes in specific regions. This dairy farmers are certainly not the only pigs at the through but they are the topic of this thread.

The reason why there is an income crisis is that we're getting pillaged by the food companies and gouged by input companies.

Perhaps this is a result of a production industry filled with small, under capitalized players. If we let the agricultural sector modernize like every other sector in our economy then you would see this power imbalance go away.

The gov't should invest in crown corporations and co-operatives to cover inputs and establish some competition to lower input prices and provide jobs, that's not asking for too much.

I other words you agree that the small family farm is uneconomic and that it is necessary to create larger business entities to be competitive.

That is why I believe the free market that you propose is a myth and that there needs to be some regulations

Virtually every industry is regulated in some way. Government regulations don't go away just because larger businesses dominate an industry.

PS. Please put seperate points into seperate paragraphs. Your long paragraphs are hard to read.

[blueblood]

"Those dairy farmers as you know work their ass off, I'll say they put a lot more time in than I do on my farm without question.

I know many people who work their ass off trying to run a small business. Should they get a subsidy too?"

IN my opinion if they are producing something that we NEED, then yes, if it is oh lets say crafts and dirt bikes then no. I will say this though I think that the dairy farmers should get a royalty on their milk sold to ease tax burden, I'll admit im a little foggy on the dairy system, but I do support quotas and supply management.

"Those I know this isn't easy to hear but I value ag production business over lets say a golf business,

But your beloved dairy farmers would go broke without all the 'golf' businesses generating tax revenue for the gov't."

If you would realize how much tax dollars a farmer kicks in and how we spend our money you wouldn't want us farmers go broke. The sales tax from a piece of machinery would cover a low income earners income tax, the sales tax from farm inputs should cover more individuals income tax, no us having money is a good thing.

"last time I checked milk isn't a king's ransom or anything.

It's not about the price of milk. It is a about politicians taking money from profitable enterprises and using it to buy votes in specific regions. This dairy farmers are certainly not the only pigs at the through but they are the topic of this thread."

I am not just defending dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec, i'm defending the industry as a whole, there are some outfits out here in the prairies too. Ag isn't profitable due to corporations being their greedy selves.

"The reason why there is an income crisis is that we're getting pillaged by the food companies and gouged by input companies.

Perhaps this is a result of a production industry filled with small, under capitalized players. If we let the agricultural sector modernize like every other sector in our economy then you would see this power imbalance go away."

Umm ag is modernized, we are without a shadow of a doubt one of the most efficient industries in the country, our farm and others run at over 100% efficiency in that our crops yielded more than we thought, have you seen some of the brand new machinery out there, if that's not modern i don't know what is. If by modernize you mean 3 corporations getting in there and running our food supply and turning back the clock to feudalism -> plugged up social security system because we are only trained to farm, more expensive food on the shelf, productivity going down (for example state farms in old Soviet Union were out produced per unit by a guy having his own individual plot because the farmer CARES about whats his property over some other guys property), consumers ending have to pay more in the end. No thanks, I'll have the government hopefully implement some programs which are easy on the tax payer and guarantee us a fair price, and you guys access to low cost food.

"I other words you agree that the small family farm is uneconomic and that it is necessary to create larger business entities to be competitive."

No, we are very economic and VERY efficient, it's hard to make it when we are being manipulated by corporations on the input side of things and corporations on the processing and distribution end. Why can't we all make money, Monsanto does it with us (16 bucks an acre for plant breeder rights on top of buying their seed), and in the recording industry everyone gets their slice, it's very economic due to copyright protection from the government. By the way Monsanto Canola is the most profitable canola for us to grow and pay the bills so we need it. So if the government sticks up for us we can be economic too.

"Virtually every industry is regulated in some way. Government regulations don't go away just because larger businesses dominate an industry."

Well if you are fine with corporations manipulating the government regulations then that's too bad. Monsanto basically written government regulations regarding genetically modified organisms, just look what happened to poor Percy Schmeiser. If Monsanto can get these cool benefits, why can't we?

[Canuck E Stan]

If you don't like what Monsanto does, form a co-operative between farmers and avoid the Monsanto type companies.

If you don't like what the corporations are doing to the farmers,form a co-operative and deal with the corporation as a group.

If subsudies are necessary to survive in business,think about getting into another business.

Sounds like the farmer doesn't want to take charge of the business,only wants to farm.

Face the new millenium,this isn't your Grandfather's farm anymore.

Evolution includes the dairy farmer.

[blueblood]

If you don't like what Monsanto does, form a co-operative between farmers and avoid the Monsanto type companies.

If you don't like what the corporations are doing to the farmers,form a co-operative and deal with the corporation as a group.

If subsudies are necessary to survive in business,think about getting into another business.

Sounds like the farmer doesn't want to take charge of the business,only wants to farm.

Face the new millenium,this isn't your Grandfather's farm anymore.

Evolution includes the dairy farmer.

If only it were that easy, I'd love to form a Co-operative, but try getting a load of people together, to part with their money, lots aren't making any money and can't afford to invest. We're scattered all over and under the thumb. It is almost too late to start up Co-operatives as we'd get smoked. There is one successful one, though Co-op in western Canada, I'm a proud member and get my 110 bucks every year for being a member. It's hard to get other people in the cities to get on board with it though. I personally prefer that we get ROYALTIES and get our fair price for our services that way like recording artists do. I hate to say it's almost too late for us to fight the corporations without government help. I have faced the new millenium, my practices are very very very efficient. The big ag business corporations are too powerful and have me by the throat. I don't look at agriculture as a business, but a job just like a doctor, teacher, and police officer, recording artist and I believe we should be getting paid fair for the extremely important service we provide. The dairy farmer has evolved, he's high tech, safe, efficient, plus he has a system where he gets paid fairly for the service he provides.