Bodies of Eight Men Found in Southern Ontario

[August1991]

SHEDDEN, Ont. - All eight men slain in Ontario's worst mass murder are from the Greater Toronto Area, Ontario Provincial Police investigators confirmed today.

The bodies were found in four vehicles in this small, rural community near London early Saturday by a local resident.

"We are condifent that all the victims were known to each other and from the Greater Toronto Area," OPP Det.-Supt. Ross Bingley told reporters this morning.

Toronto Star

This is ghastly, but there is a point I think. Whoever did this clearly wanted to send a strong message. It is one thing to commit murder, it is another thing to place bodies together where they will be found.

People argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent, but this case and similar gangland slayings suggest otherwise. The purpose here is to send a strong, loud message to a small group of people to keep them in line.

I am not advocating capital punishment, but I am saying that we punish people primarily to send a signal to others to stay in line. Criminals apparently apply this principle in their own affairs.

[BubberMiley]

So if it's good enough for the criminals, it's good enough for us?

I have no sympathy for any of the criminals involved, and would be happy to see jails become more entrepreneurial in their use of prison labour so that they can pay for themselves. I would even say revisiting use of the lash and the chain gangs should be considered for violent and sexual offfenders, Amnesty International be damned.

But David Milgaard and Thomas Sophonow and countless others have convinced me that we can't trust the state to have the power to kill us.

[August1991]

So if it's good enough for the criminals, it's good enough for us?

You are giving a moral spin here. I am merely noting the obvious: incentives are used because they work. It rains on the just and the unjust.

This case illustrates that what we consider to be justice is in fact a civilized way to create a deterrent.

I would even say revisiting use of the lash and the chain gangs should be considered for violent and sexual offfenders, Amnesty International be damned.

The penalty should match the crime for the deterrent to be effective. I somehow doubt a lash would be effective. It is common in the US to see prison gangs being used to clean roadside litter. Prisoners get fresh air, wardens get a reward to offer good behaviour, litter is reduced and the deterrent is clearly visible to those thinking of committing a crime. But there's something unseemly to the sight of the orange coveralls.

But David Milgaard and Thomas Sophonow and countless others have convinced me that we can't trust the state to have the power to kill us.

Gangsters don't have prisons but the State does. But I agree too that capital punishment is final.

[sideshow]

perhaps the criminals could be put to work and the money used to pay off their debt to society.

example. federalize the garment industry. i know, i know. whatever. all the jobs are going or are gone overseas to people making 5 bucks a day anyways. and then shipped back in to walmart for sale to us.

so why not take over an industry (any dying one really) and have these cons (instead of pumping up with weights, smoking drugs and humping eachother all day) work to create a product. sell it cheap to suppliers (a government store, a tender, whatever-i m not in sales so i cant give details) and pass the savings on to the public. profits could go to victims of crime, paying for room and board of the criminals, etc.

just a thought.

[Hicksey]

I heard it all over the radio. Apparently the police believe the men were all from the GTA.

I think someone ought to call up David Miller and tell him to stop exporting his gun crime problem.

[cybercoma]

Slaughtering 8 people does send a message not to f*** with whoever did the killing, yes.

The point of this thread isn't to discuss whether or not fear is a deterrant, is it?

Those arguing otherwise need to give their heads a shake.

[Black Dog]

This is ghastly, but there is a point I think. Whoever did this clearly wanted to send a strong message. It is one thing to commit murder, it is another thing to place bodies together where they will be found.

People argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent, but this case and similar gangland slayings suggest otherwise. The purpose here is to send a strong, loud message to a small group of people to keep them in line.

I am not advocating capital punishment, but I am saying that we punish people primarily to send a signal to others to stay in line. Criminals apparently apply this principle in their own affairs.

And their response will be, without a doubt, to kill a few of the other guys. When someone joins a criminal organization, death at the hands of a rival oganization is understood to be an occupational hazard, so it's not clear how you can deter someone with such a mindset. The same reasoning applies to capital punishment: if someone is aware that, at any point, they could get killed over a few bucks, a handful of drugs or evenfor wearing the wrong colours, the capital punishment is pretty low on the threat scale.

[cybercoma]

This is ghastly, but there is a point I think. Whoever did this clearly wanted to send a strong message. It is one thing to commit murder, it is another thing to place bodies together where they will be found.

People argue that capital punishment is not a deterrent, but this case and similar gangland slayings suggest otherwise. The purpose here is to send a strong, loud message to a small group of people to keep them in line.

I am not advocating capital punishment, but I am saying that we punish people primarily to send a signal to others to stay in line. Criminals apparently apply this principle in their own affairs.

And their response will be, without a doubt, to kill a few of the other guys. When someone joins a criminal organization, death at the hands of a rival oganization is understood to be an occupational hazard, so it's not clear how you can deter someone with such a mindset. The same reasoning applies to capital punishment: if someone is aware that, at any point, they could get killed over a few bucks, a handful of drugs or evenfor wearing the wrong colours, the capital punishment is pretty low on the threat scale.

slaughtering 8 people is not the same as getting shot over a few bucks and a handful of drugs. it's a clear message to gang members that they better comply with "the rules" or else....

[Black Dog]

slaughtering 8 people is not the same as getting shot over a few bucks and a handful of drugs. it's a clear message to gang members that they better comply with "the rules" or else....

Well yeah. That speaks to the point I'm trying to make: namely that you can't draw broad conclusions on society as a whole based on the specific culture of criminal street gangs.

[Black Dog]

Lookee here:

The eight men found slaughtered in a Southwestern Ontario farmer's field on Saturday, their bodies stuffed into four vehicles, were all full-fledged members or associates of the Bandidos biker gang and were shot dead in an "internal cleansing," provincial police said yesterday, allaying any immediate prospect of a gang war.

[August1991]

Well yeah. That speaks to the point I'm trying to make: namely that you can't draw broad conclusions on society as a whole based on the specific culture of criminal street gangs.

On the contrary, my argument was intended for those who believe jail time or capital punishment are not deterrents. This incident provides evidence that criminals among themselves use capital punishment as an incentive to obtain the behaviour they desire. They presumably do it because it works.

[And forget about drawing broad conclusions. We're discussing the specific culture of criminal behaviour.]

As an aside, I'll bet that the Hell's Angels found collecting outstanding debts alot easier in the past few days.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about all this. Here's what someone who knows alot more about this than I do said:

“This was not an organized crime hit, it had nothing to do with competition, turf battles: nothing,” said Yves Lavigne, an organized crime expert who has written three books on the Hells.

“It really had nothing to do with organized crime. It was a party gone bad.”

...

“This is what happens when you give drugs to white trash,” said Mr. Lavigne.

“This is like the Trailer Park Boys meets the Sopranos.”

G & M

He may well be right. Who knows.