SORRY, MR PRIME MINISTER, AFGHANISTAN IS NOT OUR WAR

[CHUCKMAN]

March 25, 2006

SORRY, MR PRIME MINISTER, AFGHANISTAN IS NOT OUR WAR

John Chuckman

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he has trouble understanding Canadians who feel ardently that their country's soldiers should not be involved in Afghanistan.

Toronto Globe and Mail

* Remaining Post removed due to cross-posting *

Admin

[Argus]

March 25, 2006

SORRY, MR PRIME MINISTER, AFGHANISTAN IS NOT OUR WAR

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he has trouble understanding Canadians who feel ardently that their country's soldiers should not be involved in Afghanistan.

Toronto Globe and Mail

We are not threatened by voices in the Middle East opposing American policy,

Thus is Afghanistan inextricably linked, in the minds of the Left, to support for the United States.

Opposition to our support for the UN and NATO mission of rebuilding Afghanistan (not "war") has two main branches, one of which often compliments the other.

First, there is that vitriolic hate of the Unites States in general, and the Bush government in particular, which is now widespread among the Canadian Left. There is little justification for either, but hate isn't about reasoning, but emotionalism, and emotionalism is the basis of most Leftist ideology. To the Left, our mission in Afghanistan has nothing to do with helping the people there (who, lets' face it, they don't care about anyway) and everything to do with helping Americans.

Second is an almost reflexive anti-militarism inspired by a Canadian media who are almost universally trendy, urban, fat, smug and happy. We're talking about people who would get lost in a city park without a guide, and who would react to any physical confrontation by throwing up their hands in terror and squealing like little girls. These are the people, sadly, who make culture, who propogade their ideals and beliefs. Those who have always been looked after, who have never known want or fear or danger cannot comprehend the reality of a world where bad men dominate. They are smart enough to know that soldiers have to carry guns but can't help looking askance at them anyway. Canadians and guns don't go together in their minds, and the thought Canadian soldiers might actually, well, be rude to people, has them all gasping like fish out of water. Worse! They might be rude to ethnic people! Aagghh!

CTV, which is rapidly deteriorating in my mind, to a standard below tabloid television, led a discussion the other day with talk of how Canadians don't support the "war" in Afghanistan, and that "now that the body bags have started coming home" we need a rethink.

The bodybags coming home? We had a traffic accident which killed two soldiers. If it had happened in Canada the media wouldn't even have covered it. But because it was in Afghanistan there was wall to wall national coverage. Even the funeral was covered! It was a traffic accident! Sheesh!

You and other voices from Western Canada have made much of reforming Canada's democratic institutions,

There's that reflexive anti-westernism which I've seen more and more of over the past decade. The presumption that Western Canadians are somehow hard-hearted bumpkins out of touch with the more culturally enlightened and sophisticated denizens of Toronto... more than half of whose citizens, btw, are foreign born. There seems to be a growing resentment among the literati in central Canada towards the western Canadian cultural belief that people should take responsibility for their own actions, and that government is not there to solve each and every problem each and every one of us faces in life. Western Canada's habit of voting conservative has them fretting and fuming and now sneering condescendingly at all westerners. Oddly, no such attitude is shown towards Quebecers who insist on voting seperatist.

The Canadian general in charge of operations in Afghanistan has made public statements that are shameful to Canada's reputation in the world. Stuff about going over to do some killing. He sounds like an American wannabe raised on Rambo movies.

Ignorance about Canada's place in the world, its history and reputation abound among the Left. They cherish this fanciful ideal that Canada is seen as a great and shining knight of truth, justice and peace by all. But they forget the fact that knights are, at their base, known for killing people. According to yesterday's newspaper Canada places 50th in the world in terms of its contribution to UN peacekeeping. You won't find any recognition of that among the Left. They still seem to think our world reputation is as the great peacekeepers, admired by all for our noble efforts on the world's behalf. As for the fact our soldiers have a stirling, historical reputation for ferocity in battle, well, knowledge of history among the left only extends to those events and periods with which they are emotionally comfortable.

Everyone even remotely knowledgeable about Afghanistan states with utter certainty that the pullout of western troops now would lead to the immediate disintigration of the Afghan government and civil war. It's breathtaking that the Left swoons about the idea of Canada helping people throughout the world with peacekeeping, but snivels in complaint when the need to employ force might actually arise - especially where there are (ick!) American interests involved. Mushy headed emotionalism mixed up with bizarre anti-American political correctness is not a basis for foreign policy, and I'm glad Canada's government ignores the bleating of the Left.

[Nocrap]

I agree with Chuckman. George Bush has become the poster boy for terrorist recruiting, and Mr. Harper is panting after him like a love sick schoolboy.

We hear of a 'culture of entitlement' when it comes to the Liberals and the sponsorship scandal, but for some reason, many Westerners believe that they are entitled to the natural resources of any country, simply because they are either white, Christian, or from the Western world. I'm all three, but it doesn't make me better.

They use words like 'freedom' and 'democracy', like somehow they are a tangible entity. Freedom can mean different things to different people, and freedom to preserve a tradition that has gone on for thousands of years, for them is a right worth fighting for. Doesn't forcing democracy on people, run contra to the idea of freedom of choice?

Democracy (sometimes) works for us, but if we were being told that we would have to accept a monarchy or dictatorship, we would fight; so can we can't expect any less in the Middle East.

I find it rather interesting that everything seems to boil down to a "right" and "left" thing. Perhaps I've been around longer than many people here, but I have not heard the term "Leftie", since the Cold War and Archie Bunker.

I've said it before. So long as the Americans keep knocking things down, Canada through the UN and NATO, will be needed to build them back up again. I just don't want us to stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with the wrecking crew.

[Guest Warwick Green]

SORRY, MR PRIME MINISTER, AFGHANISTAN IS NOT OUR WAR

I don't think anytime we have sent troops overseas that it has been our war, whether it was Cyprus, Suez, Korea etc, etc. The question really is whether we are achieving anything in attempting to replace the Taliban with what we like to think of as a "democracy". BTW, what kind of a democracy executes people for changing their religion?

Or are we just in another foreign swamp where like Vietnam - and more and more likely Iraq - the West is engaged in a conflict it can't win and which will end up with an ignominious withdrawl after the deaths of many soldiers?

[August1991]

Chuckman,

I have reported your post to the moderator. Your text refers to the Globe & Mail but it appears that in fact, it is a letter you sent to the newspaper. You preveiously posted it here.

A short quote and a link would have been sufficient.

As to the content of your post, I think Argus handily disposed of most of your points.

[Argus]

I agree with Chuckman. George Bush has become the poster boy for terrorist recruiting, and Mr. Harper is panting after him like a love sick schoolboy.

And under the 8 year reign of Bill Clinton (who, btw, I respected infinitely more than Bush) some ten thousand Arabs and Pakistanis made their way to Afghanistan to join Al Quaeda, which launched succesive attacks on the US culminating in the WTC attrocity. So this nonsense about Bush's actions aiding in terrorist recruitment seem a little forced.

We hear of a 'culture of entitlement' when it comes to the Liberals and the sponsorship scandal, but for some reason, many Westerners believe that they are entitled to the natural resources of any country, simply because they are either white, Christian, or from the Western world. I'm all three, but it doesn't make me better.

And that has what to do with Afghanistan? Or are you suggesting we are in Afghanistan in order to steal its rocks and dirt?

They use words like 'freedom' and 'democracy', like somehow they are a tangible entity. Freedom can mean different things to different people,

Like freedom to engage in slavery of Black people? If that's my country's culture I should be allowed to continue, right? It's not like you'd protest or demand the world do something about it, right? Nooooo.

But if it's the freedom to murder anyone who disagrees with a rigid interpretation of a holy book, freedom to beat and oppress women and force them into a slave-like subservience, well that's just their culture!

Freedom is not one of those words you can play games with. A society in which the individual is deeply oppressed by government or religious authorities has no freedom.

Democracy (sometimes) works for us, but if we were being told that we would have to accept a monarchy or dictatorship, we would fight; so can we can't expect any less in the Middle East.

Are you suggesting the people in Afghanistan want a brutal dictatorship? And are willing to fight for it?

No one is threatening the way of life of the ignorant primitives who make up most of the resistance, ie, the Taliban. The Taliban have always been, basically, illiterate peasants from the villages who banded together under religious zealotry to force their own religious beliefs on everyone else. As I don't believe anyone is going into the mountain villages and forcing people to vote at gunpoint, what you're really defending is the right of ignorant primitives from the tribal villages to force everyone else into their religious beliefs.

I find it rather interesting that everything seems to boil down to a "right" and "left" thing. Perhaps I've been around longer than many people here, but I have not heard the term "Leftie", since the Cold War and Archie Bunker.

You've been staying on another planet? Had nothing to do with politics over the last twenty years? Of course the argument boils down to left and right, simply because left and right are noted for certain political sympathies, opinions, ideologies and beliefs. Leftists hate America and hate militarism. Rightests tend to be a lot more realistic.

I've said it before. So long as the Americans keep knocking things down, Canada through the UN and NATO, will be needed to build them back up again.

The United States has done most of the building in the last fifty years. Canada has done little or nothing for anyone. Even our foreign aid programs are largely designed to enrich Canadian corporations and companies which donate money to the ruling party. We are, as I've noted, the 50th best UN peacekeeping contributor. We, as a people, contribute very little, proportionately in aid, as compared to the United States

What has Canada done to "build" anything in the world lately?

[August1991]

Or are we just in another foreign swamp where like Vietnam - and more and more likely Iraq - the West is engaged in a conflict it can't win and which will end up with an ignominious withdrawl after the deaths of many soldiers?

Vietnam was one battle in a long Cold War that was just as often ideological as it was military. To call Vietnam a failure is like saying Dunkerque was a failure.

I suspect that we are involved in a similar "war" now, although I dislike that term.

[Drea]

Canada did have a terrorist incident every bit as dreadful as 9/11. I refer to the bombing of the Air India flight years ago. Taking account of Canada's size, this event killed proportionately more Canadians than 9/11's American victims. While the outcome of that investigation has been disappointing, Canada never contemplated bombing Sikh communities because of it. America's logic in the war on terror is simply that ridiculous.

INDEED!

[Hicksey]

Where's the rage at the Liberals who made this committment in the first place?

Harper's only completing Paul Martin's committment. If Harper were to renew the committment after that of Martin was over you might have a point. The fact is that Harper didn't create this problem, he inherited it.

I'm seeing a partisan hack thread here.

[normanchateau]

Leftists hate America and hate militarism. Rightests tend to be a lot more realistic.

After months away from Mapleleafweb, it's reassuring to find Archie Bunker-style intelligence, absurd generalizations and comic relief masquerading as political comment. It almost makes me want to return to this site more frequently.

Yes, those leftists do indeed have a history of hating militarism.

Leon Trotsky, when he founded the Red Army, was obviously "more realistic" and no doubt a right-winger. And so was Joseph Stalin. And Mao Zedong. And Ho Chi Minh. And when Fidel Castro's forces invaded Angola and other regions of southern Africa, they were probably trying to install "more realistic" right-wing governments in Africa. And Kim Jong-il of North Korea is what? A military-hating leftist or a more realistic right-winger?

[cybercoma]

Let's retreat now.

That should send a clear message to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban that they should murder our troops and innocent civilians because they'll get their way. We should allow Afghanistan to fall under oppressive dictatorial rule again, because that would send a clear message to the world what Canada stands for and defends.

Great idea, bleeding-hearts.

[cybercoma]

Leftists hate America and hate militarism. Rightests tend to be a lot more realistic.

After months away from Mapleleafweb, it's reassuring to find Archie Bunker-style intelligence, absurd generalizations and comic relief masquerading as political comment. It almost makes me want to return to this site more frequently.

Yes, those leftists do indeed have a history of hating militarism.

Leon Trotsky, when he founded the Red Army, was obviously "more realistic" and no doubt a right-winger. And so was Joseph Stalin. And Mao Zedong. And Ho Chi Minh. And when Fidel Castro's forces invaded Angola and other regions of southern Africa, they were probably trying to install "more realistic" right-wing governments in Africa. And Kim Jong-il of North Korea is what? A military-hating leftist or a more realistic right-winger?

Let's not get hung up on semantics. Typically the leftist latte-drinking jackasses in Canada do not support helping others. They care only about themselves and absolutely refuse to offer assistance to those in need in other parts of the world because that might mean some of our own would have to make the ultimate sacrifice.

They believe in sitting terrorists on Freud's couch and finding the "root" to the problems. The root is that terrorists are murderous criminals and should be dealt with accordingly. As we sit back and think of diplomatic means for dealing with these issues, their attacks continue to become more gruesome and violent. The day they choose to sit at a table and use diplomacy to get their point across, instead of slaughtering innocent people, is the day their demands will be humoured.

As of right now, it would seem those on the "right," as far as politics are concerned, are the only ones who care to see this.

[normanchateau]

Leftists hate America and hate militarism. Rightests tend to be a lot more realistic.

After months away from Mapleleafweb, it's reassuring to find Archie Bunker-style intelligence, absurd generalizations and comic relief masquerading as political comment. It almost makes me want to return to this site more frequently.

Let's not get hung up on semantics. Typically the leftist latte-drinking jackasses in Canada do not support helping others. They care only about themselves and absolutely refuse to offer assistance to those in need in other parts of the world because that might mean some of our own would have to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Thank you for so eloquently reinforcing my point.

[politika]

March 25, 2006

SORRY, MR PRIME MINISTER, AFGHANISTAN IS NOT OUR WAR

John Chuckman

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he has trouble understanding Canadians who feel ardently that their country's soldiers should not be involved in Afghanistan.

Toronto Globe and Mail

We are not threatened by voices in the Middle East opposing American policy, unless you believe one reference in a recording of bin Laden mentioning Canada along with other countries. That recording, along with other post-invasion recordings, was almost certainly a CIA fraud, for Osama bin Laden had to be killed in the heavy bombing of his mountain redoubt.

Even if you do not believe that bin Laden is dead, what is beyond question is that American activities in Afghanistan and Iraq are building a vast reservoir of resentments and a training school for future terrorists. Tens of thousands of disaffected young Muslim men not only now have something to deeply resent but they have the operational conditions to perfect their arts of covert war. According to countless witnesses from Afghanistan and Iraq, America's brutal, thoughtless tactics have only inflamed tempers. Canada's good name should not be associated with this.

The previous government's making an under-the-table deal with Bush to place Canadian troops in Afghanistan surely does not make it our war. Your continuing, rather shrill, insistence still does not make it so. The deal was, of course, an effort to placate Bush for our not supporting his illegal invasion of Iraq. America is Canada's neighbor, but it is a fatuous and immoral argument that you help your neighbor in criminal activities just because he is your neighbor.

You and other voices from Western Canada have made much of reforming Canada's democratic institutions, and I agree that a number of them do need reforming. Yet no greater vice to democracy can exist than a government's committing the lives of young people and the whole nation's reputation to war without any consultation or debate. If you believe in democratic values, as you claim, you cannot support such behavior.

The argument is all the more powerful when war is the behavior of a minority government. Your government represents the will of less than forty percent of Canadians. How can you believe then that your views on the war should be the views of most Canadians? Through polls and every other indication of public opinion, the majority of the Canadian people have made it clear they do not support America's wars in the Middle East.

The Canadian general in charge of operations in Afghanistan has made public statements that are shameful to Canada's reputation in the world. Stuff about going over to do some killing. He sounds like an American wannabe raised on Rambo movies.

Canada did have a terrorist incident every bit as dreadful as 9/11. I refer to the bombing of the Air India flight years ago. Taking account of Canada's size, this event killed proportionately more Canadians than 9/11's American victims. While the outcome of that investigation has been disappointing, Canada never contemplated bombing Sikh communities because of it. America's logic in the war on terror is simply that ridiculous.

What you people who oppose the war don't grasp, that what affects our biggest trading parner effects us. If the US were not involved in the war surly a rogue nation would launch a nuke at them and since most of our cities are by the border Canada would be in just as much danger. It is our war to not just because of this but because the United STates is our ally and when they call we have to answer and help them just liek they would do for us.

Canada cannot be a country of peace forever

[politika]

Canada did have a terrorist incident every bit as dreadful as 9/11. I refer to the bombing of the Air India flight years ago. Taking account of Canada's size, this event killed proportionately more Canadians than 9/11's American victims. While the outcome of that investigation has been disappointing, Canada never contemplated bombing Sikh communities because of it. America's logic in the war on terror is simply that ridiculous.

INDEED!

The war on terror is not ridiculus, before we went into Afganistan their government was a terrorist government under the Taliban, they slaughtered thousands of people. ALthough we are talking about Afganistan another point to make is that if Americans had not have gone into Iraq Sadam Hussain would have still been commiting mass atrocities on his own people. Whether they are in their for oil or not they are getting rid of evil tyrants, oil is just a spoil of war, they won so they get it.

Also their is an added bunus

FREEDOM FOR WESTERN NATIONS TO FEEL SAFE FROM THIS TERROR S%$#

[Guest Warwick Green]

Or are we just in another foreign swamp where like Vietnam - and more and more likely Iraq - the West is engaged in a conflict it can't win and which will end up with an ignominious withdrawl after the deaths of many soldiers?

Vietnam was one battle in a long Cold War that was just as often ideological as it was military. To call Vietnam a failure is like saying Dunkerque was a failure.

I suspect that we are involved in a similar "war" now, although I dislike that term.

At some point the US will leave Iraq. They may leave behind a civil war, they may set up a strongman to run the country (Sadam II) or they may even have fashioned a democracy. No matter what, the White House spin doctors will be calling it a "victory".

[normanchateau]

If the US were not involved in the war surly a rogue nation would launch a nuke at them

What rogue nation will launch a nuke at the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

[politika]

If the US were not involved in the war surly a rogue nation would launch a nuke at them

What rogue nation will launch a nuke at the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

Who was in control before the american led invasion of Afganistan?

Who was in control before the American lef invasion of Iraq

Who the hell possibly has technology to hit the USA with a nuke? North Korea

We have hit a few of these nations who have terrorist governments but what about the rest like North Korea? How come the United States government is very cafefull of how they are handling North Korea? THey are obviously worried Korea does have nukes or else on CNN US Marines would have alread landed on the North Korean Penisula.

[seabee]

Any "rogue nation" is only happy to see that the U.S. has chosen to send so much of its military forces outside of its own territory; it makes it easier to perpetrate "terrorist" activities right inside the U.S.

Sending U.S. troops in Afghatnistan or anywhere else certainly does not deter "rogue countries" from attacking the U.S.

[politika]

Any "rogue nation" is only happy to see that the U.S. has chosen to send so much of its military forces outside of its own territory; it makes it easier to perpetrate "terrorist" activities right inside the U.S.

Sending U.S. troops in Afghatnistan or anywhere else certainly does not deter "rogue countries" from attacking the U.S.

Well considerign the United States probably has millions more troops on their home soil to defend America probably does. It is Canada that needs to worry on how much soldiers we send out alhtough we need to we also need to worry about home defense.

Also the United States porbably has the best inteligence in the world to defend themselves.

[normanchateau]

If the US were not involved in the war surly a rogue nation would launch a nuke at them

What rogue nation will launch a nuke at the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

Who the hell possibly has technology to hit the USA with a nuke? North Korea

So North Korea will nuke the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

[politika]

If the US were not involved in the war surly a rogue nation would launch a nuke at them

What rogue nation will launch a nuke at the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

Who the hell possibly has technology to hit the USA with a nuke? North Korea

So North Korea will nuke the US if the US withdraws from Afghanistan?

If you have watched the news lately you would no the war on terror doesn't stop at Afganistan. AFgainistan is just a minor country on the United States terror list. I am just saying if we end the war on terror which INCLUDES Afganistan than the countries we and the US pulls out of we will just see a new terrorist government which will commit terror activites on North American soil.

I am saying a terririst attack was commited on North American soil and its are job to defend it no matter what the costs are.

[GostHacked]

Politika

Afghanistan has the same rule of law under the new government as they did under the Taliban. And you are saying they are free now? Yes free to do the same thing they HAVE been doing. Liberation ment nothing.

Canada cannot be a country of peace forever

The US cannot be a war mongering country forever.

If you have watched the news lately you would no the war on terror doesn't stop at Afganistan. AFgainistan is just a minor country on the United States terror list. I am just saying if we end the war on terror which INCLUDES Afganistan than the countries we and the US pulls out of we will just see a new terrorist government which will commit terror activites on North American soil.

I am saying a terririst attack was commited on North American soil and its are job to defend it no matter what the costs are.

We would KNOW that the war on terrorism does not stop with Iran either. Yes I did say Iran. The US government (mostly the CIA) IS a terrorist organization.

I don't trust their faulty intelligence at all. Hell I don't even trust our intelligence community.

There is no real world terrorist threat to the US. IF that was the case, alot more 'domestic terrorism' would be going on. But thanks to 9/11 the Patriot Act and the NSA helped to thwart other attacks. America is once again safe.

[politika]

Politika

Afghanistan has the same rule of law under the new government as they did under the Taliban. And you are saying they are free now? Yes free to do the same thing they HAVE been doing. Liberation ment nothing.

Canada cannot be a country of peace forever

The US cannot be a war mongering country forever.

If you have watched the news lately you would no the war on terror doesn't stop at Afganistan. AFgainistan is just a minor country on the United States terror list. I am just saying if we end the war on terror which INCLUDES Afganistan than the countries we and the US pulls out of we will just see a new terrorist government which will commit terror activites on North American soil.

I am saying a terririst attack was commited on North American soil and its are job to defend it no matter what the costs are.

We would KNOW that the war on terrorism does not stop with Iran either. Yes I did say Iran. The US government (mostly the CIA) IS a terrorist organization.

I don't trust their faulty intelligence at all. Hell I don't even trust our intelligence community.

There is no real world terrorist threat to the US. IF that was the case, alot more 'domestic terrorism' would be going on. But thanks to 9/11 the Patriot Act and the NSA helped to thwart other attacks. America is once again safe.

The US will always be war mongering but thats their job I guess,

I honestly have to admit I do not trust Bush either but he is not an evil terrorist like the media is saying. THe only reason people think he is an evil war monger is because he is fighting the war on terror they do the same to Gore if he was the president of the United States today. As for the CIA I trust them they are not going to lie in the name of the president. What is wrong with out inteligence community? CSIS is finding terror cells within Canada as the US CIA are in their country.

THeir is mroe terrorism going on Mandrid bombings, Australian bomb, 911, and after the british transit bombings that really pissed the world off and now we are fighting a war.

We are fighting a war it is no different from World War 2 We are fighting for freedom. What is it going to take for you people to realise that their is terorism goign on? When we Canada are attacked on our own soil. WE ARE FIGHTING THIS WAR TO PREVENT THAT!

[GostHacked]

Politika

Afghanistan has the same rule of law under the new government as they did under the Taliban. And you are saying they are free now? Yes free to do the same thing they HAVE been doing. Liberation ment nothing.

Canada cannot be a country of peace forever

The US cannot be a war mongering country forever.

If you have watched the news lately you would no the war on terror doesn't stop at Afganistan. AFgainistan is just a minor country on the United States terror list. I am just saying if we end the war on terror which INCLUDES Afganistan than the countries we and the US pulls out of we will just see a new terrorist government which will commit terror activites on North American soil.

I am saying a terririst attack was commited on North American soil and its are job to defend it no matter what the costs are.

We would KNOW that the war on terrorism does not stop with Iran either. Yes I did say Iran. The US government (mostly the CIA) IS a terrorist organization.

I don't trust their faulty intelligence at all. Hell I don't even trust our intelligence community.

There is no real world terrorist threat to the US. IF that was the case, alot more 'domestic terrorism' would be going on. But thanks to 9/11 the Patriot Act and the NSA helped to thwart other attacks. America is once again safe.

The US will always be war mongering but thats their job I guess,

I honestly have to admit I do not trust Bush either but he is not an evil terrorist liek the media iis saying. THe only reason people think he is an evil war monger is because he is fighting the war on terror they do the same to Gore if he was the president of the United States today. As for the CIA I trust them they are not going to lie in the name of the president. What is wrong with out inteligence community? CSIS is finding terror cells within Canada as the US CIA are in their country.

THeir is mroe terrorism going on Mandrid bombings, Australian bomb, 911, and after the british transit bombings that really pissed the world off and now we are fighting a war.

We are fighting a war it is no different from World War 2 We are fighting for freedom. What is it going to take for you people to realise that their is terorism goign on? When we Canada are attacked on our own soil. WE ARE FIGHTING THIS WAR TO PREVENT THAT!

So this brings to the front of a 'perpetual war' no distinct enemy, no distinct location. This is dangerous ground, this can drag out forever, and when would you know that you are done??