All the Ducks are in a Row

[Nocrap]

The bottom line is, the Liberals are the ones who let healthcare get to the state it's in right now.

It's unfortunate that we are now in a situation where tough decisions have to be made, but the blame for whatever happens rests soley on the Liberals shoulders.

Nonsense, Stephen Harper obviously destroyed healthcare in the 2 months that he was in office.

OK. I guess you missed the point.

Stephen Harper did not destroy healthcare, but is definitely not positioned to save it, as many believe.

In fact, he has never hidden his agenda in that regard.

The Liberals have done just as much to tear it down and have actually made it easy pickings for lobbyists.

However, I am only encouraging people to be more informed voters and not just assume Liberals Bad - CPC Good. If we've learned anything from the sponsorship scandal, it's what can happen when we put too much faith in any politician or party. I'm extremely angry that the Liberals took my money and squandered it so recklessly. However, I'm not ready to just assume that the CPC will do any better, when it's clear that they have just as many friends in the private healthcare industry as the Liberals.

In bringing up the people behind Mr. Harper's rise to the top, it's only to show that he also has some favours to keep, and that we as Canadians, need to watch him closely.

I've seen many posts where some have suggested that with the $5,000.00 limit, corporations can no longer influence any politician, but if you follow the money; as I suggested; you will see that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Anyone; including the Desmarais family are well within their rights to contribute to whatever party they want and their donation of 20 grand was perfectly legal. (4 people - 5,000 each)

It's just that since Mr. Harper wants me to believe that he is above reproach, he has to prove it first I'm no longer that naive.

I don't believe that either party is squeaky clean, and Canadians have to be ready to make sure that our MP's really do protect public healthcare, and not just stage a play for our amusement.

Why then don't you wait until he does something bad to judge him as such,instead of just assuming it?

"This became necessary only because your beloved Martin cut the Healthcare and Infrastructure transfer payments by 40%."

My beloved Martin? How many times do I have to say that I am not a Liberal! However, I do remember many drastic federal cost cutting measures taken to clean up Mulroney's mess. I voted for him first time around and then like others, made sure he didn't get a second chance to completely bankrupt us.

I also agree that googling Liberal campaign contributors would uncover the same corporate support, but doesn't that just level the playing field?

I only brought up Mr. Harper's because so many believe that he has NO CORPORATIONS BEHIND HIM; when in fact this time around he had MORE THAN ANY OTHER PARTY!

The idea of a private healthcare system funded through public funds, would be a disaster. Private companies NEED to make a profit and there is no guarantee that the person who had to wait six hours to see a doctor for a potentially life altering illness, would have waited any less time. That is, unless they could whip out a credit card to go to a hospital designed to treat the wealthy. This would not be a parallel system, but a two-tier system.

Case in point - my daughter had knee surgery, which thankfully was covered. However, after the surgery she was told that she would require extensive rehabilitation. Now she could wait four to six months for publicly funded, or we could pay for the three day a week treatment ourselves. It was tough, but we opted to get her the immediate rehab, rather than risk her not being able to walk properly.

We are not wealthy people, and barely managed to scrape up the money, but what if we could not? Again, the rich or heavily mortgaged will be guaranteed immediate care, which they can get now in the US.

As someone else mentioned about the HMO nightmares...is that the kind of healthcare we want?

Bottom line; Stephen Harper has never hidden his intention with regards to private healthcare. He was president of National Citizen's Coalition...NCC was founded to fight Medicare...looks like they are finally going to win. Yes, we should give the PM a chance, but if you want public healthcare than you MUST WATCH HIM CAREFULLY and remember that the Reform party and NCC had a pet word 'Choice', which simply means 'Private', so if he calls anything a 'Choice' - look a little deeper. You won't have to look far.

[scribblet]

The bottom line is, the Liberals are the ones who let healthcare get to the state it's in right now.

Bottom line; Stephen Harper has never hidden his intention with regards to private healthcare. He was president of National Citizen's Coalition...NCC was founded to fight Medicare...looks like they are finally going to win. Yes, we should give the PM a chance, but if you want public healthcare than you MUST WATCH HIM CAREFULLY and remember that the Reform party and NCC had a pet word 'Choice', which simply means 'Private', so if he calls anything a 'Choice' - look a little deeper. You won't have to look far.

Harper has made it clear numerous times that he is committed to the Canada Health Act, there is nothing in the CPC policy to support your position. Trotting out the NCC to support spurious and unfounded innuendo and conspiracy theories doesn't cut it.

Having said that, I support a choice in health care, I should have the ability to spend my $ wherever I please, if I want a private MRI I should be able to leave the line and purchase one. We need to start looking at other systems such as France, which support a combination of prive and public. The CPC is committed to maintain our public health care system, the holy grail to which most Canadians bow and pay homage. Never fear, Harper will not dismantle it so you can take your tin foil hat off.

http://www.usanext.org/full_story.cfm?arti...4&category_id=5

Interesting link here re: US health care myths

http://www.iedm.org/main/show_editorials_f...itorials_id=293

[Shakeyhands]

Harper has made it clear numerous times that he is committed to the Canada Health Act, there is nothing in the CPC policy to support your position. Trotting out the NCC to support spurious and unfounded innuendo and conspiracy theories doesn't cut it.

The CPC is committed to maintain our public health care system, the holy grail to which most Canadians bow and pay homage. Never fear, Harper will not dismantle it so you can take your tin foil hat off.

Until of course he has a majority?

[scribblet]

Harper has made it clear numerous times that he is committed to the Canada Health Act, there is nothing in the CPC policy to support your position. Trotting out the NCC to support spurious and unfounded innuendo and conspiracy theories doesn't cut it.

The CPC is committed to maintain our public health care system, the holy grail to which most Canadians bow and pay homage. Never fear, Harper will not dismantle it so you can take your tin foil hat off.

Until of course he has a majority?

No, he won't, he may allow more private clinics or diagnostics as in Quebec, but he has made it clear he will not dismantle the health care system. He does know that it is a sacred cow to which most Canadian bow. He knows enough not to try it, majority or not.

If a member of my family needed faster treatment I wouldn't hesitate to cash in some RSP's and help them out to purchase it, we should have the option to do that. We can pay for our pets to have an MRI but not ourselves. Why do others care how I spend my money, its my business and I should have the choice.

I agree about the American HMO's, but in talking to our many U.S. friends they are not all bad, and they all have access to decehnt coverage.

[margrace]

From the man who claims to be thinking strategy 24/7; Stephen Harper has certainly strategized Canadians into private healthcare, come hell or highwater. The stage is set and he is ready to put in motion his and the National Citizen’s Coalition’s agenda to scrap Medicare.

What a pile of rot. Check out Harper's statements and the policy re: adhering to the Canada Health Act, and maybe you should try googling contributors to the liberals.

Gawd, I need a bigger tin foil hat.

Yes exactly the same as Harris, I won't cut Health care and then laid off 20% of our nurses who now work the same amount of hours but have no benefits and must work in seveal hospitals.

Remember our new Health Ministers surprise when he found out during the Sars crisis that so many nurses were working part time in several hospitals.

Our health care need more doctors and nurses, not cutting and promoting Private Care which most of the people in our area, average wage about $26,000 a year, can't afford. Oh yes let the old die.

[margrace]

No, our MP's should not 'protect public health care.'

It does not work! At all! It failed! I have to wait for care, unacceptable!

We should have been moving towards a publicly insured, privately delivered system for years now, but instead the parties have defended this ghost as a politically expediant way to stick around.

I'm sick of parties putting re-elections over our health, time to get rid of this monsterous burden on both our finances and health.

I think that our hospitals, while in need of tighter oversight are fine, I also see our healthcare sytem as fine... sure it can use extra $'s (again with the proper oversight) but I have to say, anytime I or my family have needed care, well, we got it. I really don't by the sky is falling arguement proposed by those who think For Profit Care is a good thing, especially the bastardized version of publically paid for care. Sounds like another 407 saga to me.

Geoffrey, please post and tell us, if its not so personal, what care you had to wait for?

Nearly lost my leg from a flesh eatting infection because it took 6 hours to see a doctor in emergency, and the tirage system counted my condition as minor. Another hour or so and skin would need to be removed and another hour after that amputation would have been likely. This from the doctor that later criticised me.

If I had lost it, I would have no doubt sued for millions.

In Europe, I'd walk in, get it fixed before it progressed to the stage where I had IV antibiotics for a couple of days.

I was told by the doctor that "If I had come in sooner" it would have been treatable with only an injection and oral anti-biotics. He then called me a liar when I said I waited six hours to see him.

The system is broken when people have to wait for anything. There is no need. A hip replacement is speedy if it happens in less than six months. People are suffering, people are dying, because of our system.

I only ever wanted a single payer system, I don't believe that anyone should have better access because they have more money. With private hospitals, paid for by public insurance, we get the best of both worlds, no waiting times, fast and top notch service, and equality in affordability.

Why not?

[margrace]

No, our MP's should not 'protect public health care.'

It does not work! At all! It failed! I have to wait for care, unacceptable!

We should have been moving towards a publicly insured, privately delivered system for years now, but instead the parties have defended this ghost as a politically expediant way to stick around.

I'm sick of parties putting re-elections over our health, time to get rid of this monsterous burden on both our finances and health.

I think that our hospitals, while in need of tighter oversight are fine, I also see our healthcare sytem as fine... sure it can use extra $'s (again with the proper oversight) but I have to say, anytime I or my family have needed care, well, we got it. I really don't by the sky is falling arguement proposed by those who think For Profit Care is a good thing, especially the bastardized version of publically paid for care. Sounds like another 407 saga to me.

Geoffrey, please post and tell us, if its not so personal, what care you had to wait for?

Nearly lost my leg from a flesh eatting infection because it took 6 hours to see a doctor in emergency, and the tirage system counted my condition as minor. Another hour or so and skin would need to be removed and another hour after that amputation would have been likely. This from the doctor that later criticised me.

If I had lost it, I would have no doubt sued for millions.

In Europe, I'd walk in, get it fixed before it progressed to the stage where I had IV antibiotics for a couple of days.

I was told by the doctor that "If I had come in sooner" it would have been treatable with only an injection and oral anti-biotics. He then called me a liar when I said I waited six hours to see him.

The system is broken when people have to wait for anything. There is no need. A hip replacement is speedy if it happens in less than six months. People are suffering, people are dying, because of our system.

I only ever wanted a single payer system, I don't believe that anyone should have better access because they have more money. With private hospitals, paid for by public insurance, we get the best of both worlds, no waiting times, fast and top notch service, and equality in affordability.

Why not?

Yes and in our area, average wage $26,000, a lot more would die because they would have no coverage. You can't have faster care unless we get more doctors and nurses, bottom line. Private health care would only kill off a lot of our seniors living on minimum government pensions.

[scribblet]

From the man who claims to be thinking strategy 24/7; Stephen Harper has certainly strategized Canadians into private healthcare, come hell or highwater. The stage is set and he is ready to put in motion his and the National Citizen’s Coalition’s agenda to scrap Medicare.

What a pile of rot. Check out Harper's statements and the policy re: adhering to the Canada Health Act, and maybe you should try googling contributors to the liberals.

Gawd, I need a bigger tin foil hat.

Yes exactly the same as Harris, I won't cut Health care and then laid off 20% of our nurses who now work the same amount of hours but have no benefits and must work in seveal hospitals.

Remember our new Health Ministers surprise when he found out during the Sars crisis that so many nurses were working part time in several hospitals.

Our health care need more doctors and nurses, not cutting and promoting Private Care which most of the people in our area, average wage about $26,000 a year, can't afford. Oh yes let the old die.

You know full well Harris (and previously Bob Rae) had to make cuts because of the liberal's cutting transfer payments.

Your statement about letting the old die is a crock, no government has ever intimated that they would do such a thing. What they need to do is let old ideas die. They also need to open more university medical spaces, and entice doctors/nurses back from the U.S.

When someone uses a private system they are not moving up in the line, they are getting out of it, enabling you to move up.

No one is suggesting that the current system be abolished, all they want is choice and the ability to spend their hard earned $$$ as they see fit.

[geoffrey]

Margrace,

At what point to you draw the line? Adding the extra 5000 doctors needed would cost another 5-10 Billion a year without infrastructure. It's too much money, the system is unsustainable.

Our system is economically unsustainable, we don't have the money, and we will not have the money. A 10-15% across the board tax increase is what is needed to rebuild our system. No one can afford that.

Why does everyone seem to think the government just has unlimited funds? More health care spending = more taxation. We can't afford it!

The system is done, let it die. Move to a single payer, multiple provider system. Like the rest of the civilized world, that doesn't have wait lines, or spiralling health care costs. Everyone would have their insurance paid for by the government, like in France, so no one is without care.

Keep defending a dying dream all you want, I personally know it's done, dead, and gone.

[August1991]

Our system is economically unsustainable, we don't have the money, and we will not have the money. A 10-15% across the board tax increase is what is needed to rebuild our system. No one can afford that.

I don't think spending more money would make any difference at all.

Our health system is like a large city without any traffic lights. Given the ensuing massive traffic jam, people argue that we need to build more roads. When someone suggests that we install traffic lights instead, it is considered heresy. People respond, "Only big, impersonal cities have traffic lights."

Move to a single payer, multiple provider system. Like the rest of the civilized world, that doesn't have wait lines, or spiralling health care costs. Everyone would have their insurance paid for by the government, like in France, so no one is without care.

I agree completely. This is a no-brainer.

Think of PEI. The PEI Ministry of Health amounts to a small, American HMO with a captive clientele and the freedom to set premiums in a variety of ways. Who cares where or how Islanders get treated? Governments must get out of the business of providing health care and concentrate solely on the insurance aspect of health care.

If a small place like PEI could do this, then Ontario could do the same.

[mcqueen625]

The bottom line is, the Liberals are the ones who let healthcare get to the state it's in right now.

It's unfortunate that we are now in a situation where tough decisions have to be made, but the blame for whatever happens rests soley on the Liberals shoulders.

Here! Here! The Liberals started us down this path with repeated cuts to transfer payments and now we find ourselves between a rock and a hard place. We have always allowed a certain amount of private involvement in our healthcare system, and that is not about to change any time soon. What we need now is for the provinces to spend healthcare dollars appropriately on medical professionals instead of dedicating an inappropriate amount on administrative personel. Granted administrative personal need not concentrate on saving people's lives, they are too busy saving dollars to bother with how many people are dying becuase of their decisions.

[idealisttotheend]

People keep arguing in the health care debate (and in this forum) that governments cannot afford the dollars to fix the system. Okay fine. But if governments can't afford it then who can afford it. Corporations apparently. Governments get their money from people through taxes, corporations through profits from the same gosh darned people who would be paying the extra taxes. This is unless you are arguing that the rich people will pay more which doesn't seem to be an argument of my friends on the right in the debate or on this forum.

Threrefore the question is ultimately one of control, who will control the system governments through taxes or corporations through profits.

[geoffrey]

People keep arguing in the health care debate (and in this forum) that governments cannot afford the dollars to fix the system. Okay fine. But if governments can't afford it then who can afford it. Corporations apparently. Governments get their money from people through taxes, corporations through profits from the same gosh darned people who would be paying the extra taxes. This is unless you are arguing that the rich people will pay more which doesn't seem to be an argument of my friends on the right in the debate or on this forum.

Threrefore the question is ultimately one of control, who will control the system governments through taxes or corporations through profits.

The government would control the insurance, so yes, they'd still hold the purse strings. Capital investment, efficiency and higher service levels would come from a highly competitive private sector.

As soon as a wait list developes, someone else will open a clinic to pick up the slack. That's the beauty of the market, it generally doesn't leave wasteful resources around or create waiting lists.

[Nocrap]

People keep arguing in the health care debate (and in this forum) that governments cannot afford the dollars to fix the system. Okay fine. But if governments can't afford it then who can afford it. Corporations apparently. Governments get their money from people through taxes, corporations through profits from the same gosh darned people who would be paying the extra taxes. This is unless you are arguing that the rich people will pay more which doesn't seem to be an argument of my friends on the right in the debate or on this forum.

Threrefore the question is ultimately one of control, who will control the system governments through taxes or corporations through profits.

The government would control the insurance, so yes, they'd still hold the purse strings. Capital investment, efficiency and higher service levels would come from a highly competitive private sector.

As soon as a wait list developes, someone else will open a clinic to pick up the slack. That's the beauty of the market, it generally doesn't leave wasteful resources around or create waiting lists.

Geoffrey wrote: "Everyone would have their insurance paid for by the government,"

The government does not pay for anything. Taxpayers do. There is no such thing as government money - only taxpayers' money, and as such it's the taxpayers who get to decide how it will be spent.

Again, I hope that everyone will google Liberal contributors (since people continue to prove my point that both Liberals and CPC are the same) and then Harper's. THEY BOTH TAKE CORPORATE MONEY - HARPER JUST TAKES MORE!

My argument is that there are some people who believe that Stephen Harper has come in on his white horse to save Medicare, and I am giving my reasons why I believe that he is going to (at least try) to scrap it. Presently, while I'm no fan of Mr. Harper (guess you figured that out already), there seems to be no viable alternative, so instead we have to watch him VERY closely. Don't just let the ducks float by, but a knock a few of them out of the water, if you want to save Public health care.

I have many arguments for public vs. private, but the best is the most obvious - Private health care providers MUST MAKE A PROFIT! In a tiered system, the best doctors and nurses will go where the money is and public hospitals, without unlimited funds and regulations, would not be able to compete.

As for the CPC platform - it is the Reform Party platform, regardless of what colour or banner they are currently waving. When Stephen Harper wrote the policy for the Reform Party; according to past National Citizens' Coalition president, David Somerville, it was cribbed from the NCC handbook. The NCC was formed to fight medicare.

From William Johnson's book "Stephen Harper and the Future of Canada" -(pg 76), when the Reform Party's platform was being drafted "At lunch on saturday, Harper and Weissenberger sat a table with David Somerville, president of the National Citizen's Coalition...At one point, according to Weisenberger, Somerville, who attended as an observer, asked if any of the eight people at the table were members of the NCC. All of the other seven, including Harper, raised their hand."

Stephen Harper has been a long time member of the NCC, has served as vice-President of the NCC, has served as President of the NCC - the NCC has long been committed to private healthcare (founded to fight Medicare)

Yes the Liberals have been leading us down that path for sometime, and in fact have probably left us hanging on the cliff. However, Harper is not offering a lifeline, but is poised to push us over.

If you want a tiered system, or even a completely private system, funded through taxpayer money, then stay where you are and ejoy the ride. However, if you want public healthcare fixed and not scrapped, fight like the dickens.

[margrace]

All the arguments on here do not prove anything to me. A private health care plan has to be paid for the same as a public one.

So go for private hospitals, it costs for arguments sake $1,000 a day for a room now, so it will still cost $1,000 a day for a room in a private hospital plus the money that has to go to the stockholders. So how will private care help me. Won't that extra money come from my tax dollar.

A doctor costs, for arguments sake, $100 an hour, he will still get the same because a lot of them are private anyway. How will this increase my access to a doctor?

[scribblet]

As for the CPC platform - it is the Reform Party platform, regardless of what colour or banner they are currently waving. When Stephen Harper wrote the policy for the Reform Party; according to past National Citizens' Coalition president, David Somerville, it was cribbed from the NCC handbook. The NCC was formed to fight medicare.

Maybe you could provide us with a link to back up that statement, contrary to your statements the CPC is NOT Reform; nothing like it, so please provide a source and documentation to policies which would back up your statement. Harper has also distanced himself from the Manning and Harris paper.

In fact, contrary to previous Conservative policy the CPC adopted support for both the Health Act and a move to prevent two-tiered healthcare prior to the 2004 election.

While I don't doubt that the door may be opened to some private clinics (which I agree with) and the provinces could be given more flexibility, there is nothing to back up your statements.

[Gord S.]

What a load of CRAP. (Conservative Reform Alliance Platform)

For some strange reason, I don't remember people "What a load of PCP (Angel Dust)" for the Progressive Conservative Party???

.

[geoffrey]

All the arguments on here do not prove anything to me. A private health care plan has to be paid for the same as a public one.

So go for private hospitals, it costs for arguments sake $1,000 a day for a room now, so it will still cost $1,000 a day for a room in a private hospital plus the money that has to go to the stockholders. So how will private care help me. Won't that extra money come from my tax dollar.

A doctor costs, for arguments sake, $100 an hour, he will still get the same because a lot of them are private anyway. How will this increase my access to a doctor?

Margrace,

Here is the catch. Your point is extremely valid, and if the insurance side of my proposal was in incompetant hands, then you would see the $1000+profit hospital room argument.

But, what any properly managed health insurance company does is they shop for the lowest rate, set the bar there, and let the other companies become more efficient to meet that payment. So say we now set the bar at $900 per hospital bed. Only the most efficient companies can make that goal and still make profit, and therefore, the efficency of our system just increase. The other companies need to change their processes in order to make money at that price.

I'll counter the next argument before it start. "Well if they need to save money, I'll get lesser care." Nonsense. If a grocery store has awful service now, treats you poorly and sells substandard product do you still go there? Absolutely not. You'll just go to a clinic that treats you better, you have CHOICE. Something you don't have in our system now.

The waiting lists would be gone within a few years. Every person waiting in line is someone that isn't generating profit for a company. 100 people waiting, hell, lets open a clinic to treat them all next week and make our money.

And everyone is covered.

Your right NoCrap, the system is paid for by the taxpayer. Which is fair. Health care isn't something you can deny someone absolutely if they don't have money, thats sillyness. Essiential services must be covered by the government, but there is no reason why they can't be provided through private channels.

There is alot of redundancy and waste in our current system. A few years and the private sector would destroy all of that. What we would be left with is:

a ) More hospital beds

b ) Better doctors

c ) No Waiting lists

d ) Higher quality service

e ) Universal coverage

Why is this so hard to believe in??

[margrace]

But I don't understand how private health care is going to find the doctors for their systems. We are extremely short of doctors now and there is a huge deficient listed for the future, So how can we have two systems working with not enough people

The hospital my daughter works at is consistantly short staffed because there just are not enough nurses. She was working three 12 hour shifts on the weekend, they were always short of nurses and if sending in nurses then they had to be taught the system. She tried her best for two months and then cashed it in. She said it just wasn't worth killing herself for.

She always puts her patients first, but one can only do so much.

[geoffrey]

But I don't understand how private health care is going to find the doctors for their systems. We are extremely short of doctors now and there is a huge deficient listed for the future, So how can we have two systems working with not enough people

The hospital my daughter works at is consistantly short staffed because there just are not enough nurses. She was working three 12 hour shifts on the weekend, they were always short of nurses and if sending in nurses then they had to be taught the system. She tried her best for two months and then cashed it in. She said it just wasn't worth killing herself for.

She always puts her patients first, but one can only do so much.

Definitely, this is a major issue with our hospitals right now. Nurses aren't neccessarily underpaid, but they are paid less than their American counterparts. This creates a braindrain. The private companies would have the flexibility to pay the employees as they please (and avoid unions if they could find enough non-unionised nurses). A competitve labour environment, where private companies could pay to recruit the best from the states would end our doctor shortage.

There aren't enough doctors and nurses because we don't pay them enough to keep them in our system. The brain drain is not a myth.

It goes beyond stealing doctors from the US and keeping our's here though, and this occurs outside of any system we have. We need to recognize the credentials of all qualified foreign doctors and create many more positions in our education system to bring new doctors... and nurses... through the ranks.

[Hydraboss]

But I don't understand how private health care is going to find the doctors for their systems. We are extremely short of doctors now and there is a huge deficient listed for the future, So how can we have two systems working with not enough people

The hospital my daughter works at is consistantly short staffed because there just are not enough nurses. She was working three 12 hour shifts on the weekend, they were always short of nurses and if sending in nurses then they had to be taught the system. She tried her best for two months and then cashed it in. She said it just wasn't worth killing herself for.

She always puts her patients first, but one can only do so much.

Margrace, if your daughter is an RN, then she knows the answer to the staffing problem. Why do nurses (and doctors) go to the states? Why are almost all the new grads on my wife's unit working for six months to a year here, gaining experience and then leaving for the US? For nurses, they are treated better in the private hospitals and they get hourly rate bonuses for almost all their courses. ALS, PALS, EKMO, Transport, etc... Each is worth from $1.50-3.50/hour extra. Working conditions and money. Same with doctors, only you can add the funding for private research to that list. Working conditions and money.

When Canada finally gets to the point of private hospitals (widespread) you will see Canadian doctors and nurses stay in Canada. And you will see US doctor and nurses coming to Canada. The public system can't/won't supply the two things that these professional groups need/want, but you can bet your a** that the Americans do.

[JerrySeinfeld]

From the man who claims to be thinking strategy 24/7; Stephen Harper has certainly strategized Canadians into private healthcare, come hell or highwater. The stage is set and he is ready to put in motion his and the National Citizen’s Coalition’s agenda to scrap Medicare.

http://www.answers.com/topic/national-citizens-coalition

He appointed Two-Tier Tony Clement as Minister of Health; congratulated Quebec for their initiative to reform their healthcare system and then promised to ‘investigate’ Alberta’s attempt at privatization.

What a load of CRAP. (Conservative Reform Alliance Platform)

Anyone living in Ontario knows all about two-tier Tony Clement who has long been committed to privatizing the public health care system.

http://www.afl.org/campaigns-issues/health/health-track.cfm

He was aggressively involved in the slash and burn of Mike Harris’ Common Sense Revolution; firing nurses

and shutting down hospitals, which helped to create the current ‘wait times’ and bed shortage epidemic.

Then there’s Quebec, whose privatizing initiative was enhanced when the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of private health insurance. One company who benefited the most from this decision was the Power Corporation, owned by the wealthy Desmarais family (reportedly worth almost 4 billion dollars).

Forget the fact that Peter Mackay is dating Sophie Desmarais (Julie Smyth, National Post, November 26, 2005, amoung others), but the family also, through it’s four principle owners, contributed $ 20,000.00 to Harper’s party in 2005. Our PM’s congratulatory speech was just one more step to keeping his cash cows content.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...r_health_060220

This brings us to the posturing over Ralph Klein. Harper needs Klein to oppose the act; which will force a debate; and result in the opening of the road which is really a one-way street to adequate healthcare only for the rich or heavily mortgaged.

Like Clement in Ontario, it was Klein’s health care funding cuts that closed beds, wards and hospitals in Alberta, in an attempt to fight the deficit.

http://www.cupe.ca/www/arp2002calgary

Enter Health Resource Group Inc., a private, Calgary-based company, whose Board of Directors collectively control most of the private healthcare companies including: MDS Health Ventures Inc., Connaught Laboratories Limited (leading supplier of vaccines), Columbia Health Care Inc., Tokos Medical of Canada, ISG Technologies, Life Imaging Systems Inc, Kasper Medical Laboratories (who have a long-term, $88-million per year contract to operate all diagnostic laboratories in Calgary. They also own 50 per-cent of Canadian Injury Recovery Clinic in Ottawa jointly with U.S.-based Sun Healthcare Group Inc), Networc Health Care Inc. and Metropolitan Investment Corp.; along with several numbered companies and related interest groups.

And if you don’t think they are buddies of Mr. Harper:

Peter Burgener, owner of Designs Group Inc. and chief architect for HRG, donated $5,000 to Harper’s campaign on August 2, 2005. His wife, Jocelyn Burgener, was a former member of the Alberta Legislature that closed down several hospitals. HRG was ‘gifted’ space at Grace Hospital (one of the victims) to create their posh health care facility which provides services to the wealthy and Jocelyn started a non-profit organization (with money from Heritage Canada) in the same digs.

Dr. Stephen Miller; Associate Clinical Professor at the University of Calgary and Chief Medical Officer of Columbia Health Care Inc. (with 33 rehabilitation centres across Canada. He was also Co-founder of the Western Occupational Rehabilitation Centre (now owned by Columbia.) The American Columbia Health Care Inc. was charged with fraud against Medicare, Medicaid, and the military healthcare system.

http://www.nurseweek.com/features/97-9/columbia1.html

When they began their downward spiral they suffered severe losses and were eventually sold to Networc Health Care Inc of Calgary for four million dollars. Columbia’s parent company in the US was Sun Healthcare Group who have contributed more than $150,000 to the Reform Party of Canada since 1993.

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dis...a_over_pt2.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/June/03_civ_386.htm

Frank W. and Jeanette King; owners of Networc Health Care Inc., who purchased Columbia after their legal battles in the US; contributed $ 10,100.00 to Harper’s Party - Frank W. King gave $5, 100 on August 19, 2005 and Jeanette $ 5,000 on the same day.

With his hands in this many pockets, do you really think that Stephen Harper is going to fight Ralph Klein, especially when the Liberals have also been taking money from private healthcare interests for years?

And finally; since lately all roads seem to lead to the PR firm Hill & Knowlton, who have had tremendous success through their connections to both the Liberal and Reform (aka CPC) parties, we find ourselves right back to David Emerson, and yet another reason why it was so important that he remain a cabinet minister, no matter what party won the election.

Dale Flood, who was special advisor to Emerson when he was Industry Minister with the Liberals, and manager of his campaign; is a director at Hill & Knowlton. His clients include not only MDS Laboratory Services, but MEI (Montreal Economic Institute). Helene Desmarais sits on the board of MEI, and it is a well known fact that the institute supports private healthcare.

Another director at Hill & Knowlton is Brian Mulroney. According to the National Post “Peter MacKay has been dating a blonde billionairess. Not Belinda Stronach -- this time it's Sophie Desmarais of the wealthy Power Corp. family....Mr. MacKay, who is deputy leader of the Conservatives, and Ms. Desmarais met at dinner at Brian and Mila Mulroney's Montreal home about a month ago. The Mulroneys played matchmaker -- Mrs. Mulroney thinks highly of Mr. MacKay and knows Ms. Desmarais.” Do you think this means that he will sit out of the healthcare debates due to conflict of interest? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Desmarais

This can’t all be coincidence, but before I put my tinfoil hat back in it’s box, I urge you to do a bit of research, if you really want to save public healthcare. It’s not that hard to find. Simply go to the Elections Canada website and follow the money. Look for Harper’s main contributors and google a few names. These people have more money than God, and most have something to gain from at least one of Harper/Reform’s pet projects: private healthcare, soft environmental policy and increased military spending.

SOOO...what you're saying (I think) is that we're finally gonna get some decent health care in this country?

COOOOOOOOOOL!!!

[margrace]

Margrace, if your daughter is an RN, then she knows the answer to the staffing problem. Why do nurses (and doctors) go to the states? Why are almost all the new grads on my wife's unit working for six months to a year here, gaining experience and then leaving for the US? For nurses, they are treated better in the private hospitals and they get hourly rate bonuses for almost all their courses. ALS, PALS, EKMO, Transport, etc... Each is worth from $1.50-3.50/hour extra. Working conditions and money. Same with doctors, only you can add the funding for private research to that list. Working conditions and money.

When Canada finally gets to the point of private hospitals (widespread) you will see Canadian doctors and nurses stay in Canada. And you will see US doctor and nurses coming to Canada. The public system can't/won't supply the two things that these professional groups need/want, but you can bet your a** that the Americans do.

No my daughter is not an RN, and she is casual labour, some of her weekends were four twelve hour shifts. She gets no overtime. She is not the least bit interested in going to the states, she will just go work her 40 hour week but now through the week and not on weekends. There are lots of nurses available, but there is no money to hire them. I don't know any who have gone to the states.

[geoffrey]

No my daughter is not an RN, and she is casual labour, some of her weekends were four twelve hour shifts. She gets no overtime. She is not the least bit interested in going to the states, she will just go work her 40 hour week but now through the week and not on weekends. There are lots of nurses available, but there is no money to hire them. I don't know any who have gone to the states.

Statistically, we do have a major issue with health care professionals, nurses and docs, going south. The only way we are going to be able to pay them more, and hire more, is cutting alot of the fat from the system. The only way thats happening, is if delivery is privatized.

[Nocrap]

No my daughter is not an RN, and she is casual labour, some of her weekends were four twelve hour shifts. She gets no overtime. She is not the least bit interested in going to the states, she will just go work her 40 hour week but now through the week and not on weekends. There are lots of nurses available, but there is no money to hire them. I don't know any who have gone to the states.

Statistically, we do have a major issue with health care professionals, nurses and docs, going south. The only way we are going to be able to pay them more, and hire more, is cutting alot of the fat from the system. The only way thats happening, is if delivery is privatized.

For every argument supporting private healthcare, there are at least a dozen that show why it can't and doesn't work. It will be like a hotel. Those with money will get the luxury suites, and those without the broom closet.

However, this thread was not necessarily to pit private and public, but to state that while Stephen Harper is posturing about protecting the Canada Health Act - it is just that - posturing - and the dream that he and the NCC had about scrapping Medicare is now within his grasp. If he had a majority government he could take his time, but with a vulnerable minority, it will be fast tracked. The stage is set and his ducks are in a row.