Why are the French so violent?

[Argus]

It occurs to me I can't recall the last time we had a real riot in Canada. The US doesn't have many either. But the French seem to have these vast, violent riots all the time. France, the home of sophistication and fine wines, where the state looks after all from gestation to grave. Yet if it's not student riots it's immigrant riots or farmer riots or labour riots. And we're talking about massive street fights here, with molotov cocktails and rocks hurled at police by protestors equipped with clubs and iron bars.

The French? But they're so sophisticated and urbane! I just don't get it.

[sideshow]

quebec city, 2001

[Argus]

quebec city, 2001

More Frenchmen!

[Drea]

This time

They are protesting a change in the labour laws.

The French govt has just changed the law so anyone under 26 yo can be fired from a job without just cause.

A piss off, sure but reason to burn buildings? No.

Apparently France has some very "socialist" labour laws (much more so than Canada) which discourage businesses from opening in their country. France's govt is desperately trying to "woo" new business and changing the labour laws is their way of doing so.

[geoffrey]

It's mostly due to the wine. Have you ever had a hangover from wine? Worst experience ever.

A bunch of Frenchmen with headaches that hear that they can be fired without cause is a crowd I'd want to avoid.

Not to mention the French in France have been stuck with multiculturalism that most of them oppose.

[Riverwind]

The French? But they're so sophisticated and urbane! I just don't get it.

The French have a long tradition of violent protest against the gov't that goes back to the French revolution. It seems like people there have learned that violent protests get results.

[Montgomery Burns]

Perhaps it is that famous French "nuance" we hear so much about. I had to chuckle when I read about that French girl whining "I risk working for two years for nothing, just to be fired at any moment.”

Nothing? Um, are you trying to tell us you wouldn't get a paycheque for those 2 years?

Imagine what the French economy would be like if all of that energy spent avoiding actual work at all costs was channeled towards creating new businesses.

But socialists (even though ChIraq's govt is incredibly considered "rightwing" in Europe) don't believe in hard work; they want to leech off the taxpayers like the parasites that they are.

France's economy (9.8% unemployment rate) won’t stop swirling around the toilet until they either:

1) re-learn the basic principles of capitalism (a dirty word in Europe) or

2) disappear down the toilet.

My bet is on #2.

[geoffrey]

Didn't the French almost elect some kind of pseudo-Fascist guy as president?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_National_Front

I think those taxpayers that have been paying for the immigrants welfare are finally ready to kick them all out. Kind of like I am in Canada...

[August1991]

France's economy (9.8% unemployment rate) won’t stop swirling around the toilet until they either:

1) re-learn the basic principles of capitalism (a dirty word in the EUrinal) or

2) disappear down the toilet.

Canadian GDP per capita (taking into account the cost of living) is 31,800$ and in France it's 29000$. In the US, it is 39,700$.

OECD

I frankly don't see a big difference, except that we and the French are perhaps not as rich as the Americans, on average.

----

This is just a Parisian demo. I think the riots last year were more serious, but also very isolated.

I generally find international news reports in Canada (and this includes the CBC in particular) to show that outside world as dangerous and bad whereas Canada is civilized and nice.

Canadian news also has a curious schizophrenia. The International Section of a newspaper portrays a foreign country one way, and then the Travel Section portrays the same country an entirely different way. IME, the Travel Section's portrayal is usually more accurate.

[Montgomery Burns]

France's economy (9.8% unemployment rate) won’t stop swirling around the toilet until they either:

1) re-learn the basic principles of capitalism (a dirty word in the EUrinal) or

2) disappear down the toilet.

Canadian GDP per capita (taking into account the cost of living) is 31,800$ and in France it's 29000$. In the US, it is 39,700$.

OECD

I frankly don't see a big difference, except that we and the French are perhaps not as rich as the Americans, on average.

----

This is just a Parisian demo. I think the riots last year were more serious, but also very isolated.

I generally find international news reports in Canada (and this includes the CBC in particular) to show that outside world as dangerous and bad whereas Canada is civilized and nice.

Canadian news also has a curious schizophrenia. The International Section of a newspaper portrays a foreign country one way, and then the Travel Section portrays the same country an entirely different way. IME, the Travel Section's portrayal is usually more accurate.

France's unemployment rate is 50% higher than Canada's and double that of the US. Indeed, France's unemployment rate is between 40 and 50% in their slums. They also have difficulty attracting business because it is so difficult to lay off a person when a slowdown occurs and it is next to impossible to fire someone who is lazy and/or incompetent. This makes it difficult to create jobs, unlike the US which created nearly a quarter million (239,000) jobs last month.

France's GDP growth rate is a mere 1.5% compared to Canada's 2.8% and the USA's 3.5%.

France's GDP per capita is $29,000; Canada's is $32,800, and the USA is at $41,800. All numbers from The World Factbook.

As for the riots being just a Parisian demo, according to Reuters report, organizers put the number at 400,000 in Paris out of a total of 1.3 to 1.4 million countrywide. The Interior Ministry reported 503,000 nationwide, with 80,000 in Paris.

Let's face it. They love to riot in France. The farmers have rioted, winemakers have rioted, ethnics (MSM code for Muslims) riot, and now this riot.

[margrace]

History, which we all would like to ignore, is important. Remember Madam Guillotine, seems to have left a lasting impression on the French.

[Nocrap]

History, which we all would like to ignore, is important. Remember Madam Guillotine, seems to have left a lasting impression on the French.

Rioting is not limited to the French by any means. What about the LA/Rodney King riots? That's just one example of many race riots in the US.

However, Canada is not so squeaky clean either. We may not have the death toll that the LA riot does, but we can certainly inflict damage.

1969 - at Sir George Williams University in Montreal - The computer lab was destroyed, resulting in over $2 million in damage.

June 14, 1994 - The "Stanley Cup riot" in downtown Vancouver after the Canucks lost the seventh game of the Stanley Cup final, resulted in extensive looting and street fighting.

February 7, 1996 - the "National Day of Action" student protest over cuts to Post-Secondary education funds - At the Ontario Legislature, over 1,200 students broke through the barricades, smashing out windows as they went.

November 7, 2002 - Thousands of fans rioted after hearing that a Guns n' Roses concert was cancelled. More than $100,000 dollars damage was done to GM Place. (at least it's not as petty as hoping for job security)

Again - you don't have to be French to want to become involved in a protest.

[August1991]

France's GDP per capita is $29,000; Canada's is $32,800, and the USA is at $41,800.

Since the French have a milder climate and shorter transportation distances, their GDP is smaller by these facts alone.

So, tell me, who has the more successful economy? Canada or France?

And since the French apparently go into the street and protest when they disagree with a government policy, which country has a more vibrant democracy?

Judging by nocrap's list, North Americans protest jury decisions and cultural events whereas the French protest political decisions. Which type of protest implies a popular democracy and which childish hooligans?

----

I'd trust the OECD over the CIA's World Factbook (I suspect the CIA gets its stats from the OECD), but I won't quibble about $1000.

[Nocrap]

France's GDP per capita is $29,000; Canada's is $32,800, and the USA is at $41,800.

Since the French have a milder climate and shorter transportation distances, their GDP is smaller by these facts alone.

So, tell me, who has the more successful economy? Canada or France?

And since the French apparently go into the street and protest when they disagree with a government policy, which country has a more vibrant democracy?

Judging by nocrap's list, North Americans protest jury decisions and cultural events whereas the French protest political decisions. Which type of protest implies a popular democracy and which childish hooligans?

----

I'd trust the OECD over the CIA's World Factbook (I suspect the CIA gets its stats from the OECD), but I won't quibble about $1000.

hmmm. We'd have to remove the US from the North American equation, since many of their riots turn into blood baths; so that would definitely tip the scales. However, a riot is a riot - damage to property is damage to property - civil unrest is civil unrest; whether is starts from a change to labour laws or lack of funding for students. A protest can be civil, but once a few of the protestors decide to make it violent or start damaging property, it can soon turn into something more, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you are French. It's simply the mob mentality.

[scribblet]

France's economy (9.8% unemployment rate) won’t stop swirling around the toilet until they either:

1) re-learn the basic principles of capitalism (a dirty word in the EUrinal) or

2) disappear down the toilet.

As for the riots being just a Parisian demo, according to Reuters report, organizers put the number at 400,000 in Paris out of a total of 1.3 to 1.4 million countrywide. The Interior Ministry reported 503,000 nationwide, with 80,000 in Paris.

Let's face it. They love to riot in France. The farmers have rioted, winemakers have rioted, ethnics (MSM code for Muslims) riot, and now this riot.

Apparantly they do, more so than North America anyway. They are rioting because they see their place in the welfare state is being threatened, well hell, they might even get fired for being a slacker - can't have that you know. What - work more than 35 hours a week mon dieu

LE PANIER CASE (Or is that "La" Panier Case?)

http://boortz.com/nuze/200603/03202006.html#panier

Riot police are ready for more violence in Paris and throughout France again today. Yesterday about 1.5 million French "students" and tadpoles were in the streets destroying property, burning cars and attacking police. And why? Because their place in the great French social welfare state is being threatened. More specifically, they're rioting because they are actually facing the prospect of having to earn their jobs and work to keep them.

Here's your background. France has a real problem with youth unemployment. The general nationwide rate is 23%. In some minority neighborhoods the youth unemployment is much higher. There's a reason for this. Young people in France don't have a work history to tout when they're out there looking for a job. A prospective employer has no job history to review when considering a young French man or woman for employment. If an employer decides to take a chance on a young employee with no job history, and if that young employee turns out to be a slacker, the employer is, to coin a phrase, pretty much screwed. French law protects the slacker. Job guarantees make it a very expensive proposition for an employer to get rid of a bad employee. One good way for a French employer to protect himself is to hire an experienced worker; someone with a good track record. The result? Young workers have more difficulty finding a job.

The solution was basic, rational, logical and simple. Remove the onerous restrictions on employers hiring younger workers, and that is exactly what France's prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, did. Under new regulations a French employer is allowed to hire someone 26 years old and younger on a two-year trial basis. After those two years the full range of employment guarantees would kick in.

Now you understand what the French "youth" and their labor union friends are so upset about. These new regulations might actually mean that they will have to prove themselves at work! No longer will these kids be able to walk into their new workplace with instant job protection. This is so contrary to the great French social welfare state! The government is supposed to protect these people! They aren't supposed to have to to go out there and actually work to earn their employment status! It's supposed to be guaranteed by the state! Your life belongs to the state and the state must provide! Personal responsibility! Non!

snip

There's actually a parallel to some goings-on here in the United States. The Katrina "evacuees." Those who were displaced by hurricane Katrina and who actually had a history of assuming the responsibility for their own lives have largely moved on. They've found places to live and ways to earn a living. What we have left, for the most part, are the parasites who were dependent on government before Katrina, and who remain dependent on government months after Katrina passed. Every time a suggestion is made that it is time for them to stand up and take some action to insure their own future they recoil in outrage. But ... New Orleans did have somewhat of a French culture, didn't it?

[Riverwind]

The solution was basic, rational, logical and simple. Remove the onerous restrictions on employers hiring younger workers, and that is exactly what France's prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, did. Under new regulations a French employer is allowed to hire someone 26 years old and younger on a two-year trial basis. After those two years the full range of employment guarantees would kick in.

Ironically this half baked change will create exactly the problems that the students fear: employers will create a pool of temporary jobs that will be filled by successive waves of young people who are let go after two years. Unfortunately, the French govt does not have the guts to implement the real solution by eliminating excessive job guarantees for all employees.

[Montgomery Burns]

August1991:

Since the French have a milder climate and shorter transportation distances, their GDP is smaller by these facts alone.

This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I have ever seen. Do you even know what GDP is? That is one of the first things I learned in Macro Economics.

So, tell me, who has the more successful economy? Canada or France?

With France having a 50% higher unemployment rate, and GDP growth half of Canada's, I think the answer is quite obvious.

And since the French apparently go into the street and protest when they disagree with a government policy, which country has a more vibrant democracy?

Judging by nocrap's list, North Americans protest jury decisions and cultural events whereas the French protest political decisions. Which type of protest implies a popular democracy and which childish hooligans?

Let me know when 1 to 2% of the total Canadian or American population is rioting. Being unable to work more than 35 hours/week is a vibrant democracy? Massive regulations put on businesses is a vibrant democracy? Being unable to lay off or fire workers is a vibrant democracy? Being forced to pay for state-run news sources is a sign of a vibrant democracy? Er, scratch that last one.

Rioting for a month straight is my idea of childish hooliganism.

I'd trust the OECD over the CIA's World Factbook (I suspect the CIA gets its stats from the OECD), but I won't quibble about $1000.

I'm not sure, but I suspect it is the opposite since the World FactBook updates their figures quicker than the OECD. That being said, I have no problems with the OECD; I consider them to be credible.

[Montgomery Burns]

Nocrap:

Rioting is not limited to the French by any means. What about the LA/Rodney King riots? That's just one example of many race riots in the US.

My 3 examples of French rioting occurred in the last 2 years. You gave one US example from 14 years ago. Can you give us some more recent examples of the "many race riots in the US"?

[August1991]

August1991:

Since the French have a milder climate and shorter transportation distances, their GDP is smaller by these facts alone.

This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I have ever seen. Do you even know what GDP is? That is one of the first things I learned in Macro Economics.

Why? Canadians have many employees and whole economic sectors employed to keep us warm, and lighted in winter, and cooled in summer. Our GDP is higher because of this production and these transactions alone. France is different.

Let me know when 1 to 2% of the total Canadian or American population is rioting. Being unable to work more than 35 hours/week is a vibrant democracy? Massive regulations put on businesses is a vibrant democracy? Being unable to lay off or fire workers is a vibrant democracy? Being forced to pay for state-run news sources is a sign of a vibrant democracy? Er, scratch that last one.

Were people in France "rioting" or "demonstrating"?

In Canada, we recently had a PM who claimed he had the authority to govern despite the evident lack of a parliamentary majority. What happened? Nothing.

We also had a provincial prime minister who promised not to raise taxes and then raised State health premiums. What happened? Nothing.

We have recently had a deputy elected explicitly against one party, now explicilty for another party. What happened? Nothing.

We had a PM who declared War Measures and arrested several hundred citizens for several months. What happened? Nothing.

MontgomeryBurns, how do you define "democracy"?

Thinking historically, when push comes to shove, are Canadians or French more "democratic"?

[geoffrey]

August1991:

Since the French have a milder climate and shorter transportation distances, their GDP is smaller by these facts alone.

This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I have ever seen. Do you even know what GDP is? That is one of the first things I learned in Macro Economics.

Why? Canadians have many employees and whole economic sectors employed to keep us warm, and lighted in winter, and cooled in summer. Our GDP is higher because of this production and these transactions alone. France is different.

Absolutely correct. Our climate is one of the few things that creates a difference between our economy and the weaker economies of central and western Europe. The Nordic countries are equally affected by this climate effect and thats why you see stronger economies in places such as Sweden, where if that economy was transplanted to Spain or Italy, it would be weaker.

There is a reason why Canada is one of the largest per capita consumers of fossil fuels, it's to heat our homes! That adds alot to GDP.

August neglected to mention the many other specialized industries that our climate creates (some shared with other countries, but generally countries don't have all of them). How about snow removal for example? That's a multi-million dollar GDP contributor.

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote- " How about snow removal for example? That's a multi-billion dollar GDP contributor."

In a forced sense I might add and clearly indicates along with previously mentioned other GDP forced contributions we are not as free as one might expect.

Corporate Canada clearly rules Canada and concerning the average Canadian, just enough left over for beer and popcorn.

Think I am moving to Spain.

Probably run into Monty!

[geoffrey]

geoffrey

You wrote- " How about snow removal for example? That's a multi-billion dollar GDP contributor."

In a forced sense I might add and clearly indicates along with previously mentioned other GDP forced contributions we are not as free as one might expect.

Corporate Canada clearly rules Canada and concerning the average Canadian, just enough left over for beer and popcorn.

Think I am moving to Spain.

Probably run into Monty!

Leafless, I said multi-million not multi-billion to just correct that point.

I don't feel oppressed by Corporate Canada... I'm pretty sure most Canadians can do as they please economically. Just most people aren't as comfortable with the risk/reward trade-off...

I'd go to Spain though, much nicer weather.

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote- " I said multi-million not multi billion to just correct that point."

Sorry, I meant that to.

But just think of the billions created by sales and service, energy cost and service industries associated with Canada's 'four seasons'.

I think you'll find Canadians are held at the mercy of corporate Canada and are slaves to the system more so than say U.S. residents pertaining to necessary goods and services and does pad the GDP.

You also wrote- " Iam pretty sure Canadians can do as they please economically."

And I believe that to or do I... as it does not explain or clarify why Canadians owe $628-billion dollars almost right in line with our gross national debt.

http://www.listenuptv.com/programs/031127credit.htm

[fryingpan]

What I can't figure out is why French youth are protesting over something that is designed to help them. Facing an unemployment rate of 25%, why would they protest something that's designed to help them have a chance at life? Is being unemployed that much fun?

The solution was basic, rational, logical and simple. Remove the onerous restrictions on employers hiring younger workers, and that is exactly what France's prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, did. Under new regulations a French employer is allowed to hire someone 26 years old and younger on a two-year trial basis. After those two years the full range of employment guarantees would kick in.

Ironically this half baked change will create exactly the problems that the students fear: employers will create a pool of temporary jobs that will be filled by successive waves of young people who are let go after two years. Unfortunately, the French govt does not have the guts to implement the real solution by eliminating excessive job guarantees for all employees.

I agree. Ontario has a student wage which acts the exact same way. In cities with a large number of people and few jobs, younger people are hired until they reach 18 and must be paid the adult wage. After this, the employer starts looking for excuses to boot them out the door.

[lost&outofcontrol]

How can allowing an employer give the boot for any reason without any explanation or prior warning to someone for the first 2 years of employment be a good thing for the worker(s)? If this were to happen in Canada, you can bet your asses we would have demonstrations in the streets. What prevents the employer to just sack employees with 2 years - 1 day of service and just hirer new ones? Cheap on demand labour!