Christian Right

[JerrySeinfeld]

Can somebody please tell me how many people fundamentalist Christians have to kill before they can be fairly compared to their fundamentalist Muslim counterparts?

Let's talk bodycounts here.

In the past 20 years, how do the two "nutjob margins" of their respective religions stack up as far as how many they've killed?

[geoffrey]

Thats a very dangerous line to go down Jerry. Depends on what you call the Christian Right and if you include actions of states that are controlled by those from the Christian Right.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Thats a very dangerous line to go down Jerry. Depends on what you call the Christian Right and if you include actions of states that are controlled by those from the Christian Right.

I'm not talking about governments - I know where you're going with this. Nice try.

I'm talking about the constant and unfair comparisons between fundamentalist muslims and fundamentalist christians.

[geoffrey]

Thats a very dangerous line to go down Jerry. Depends on what you call the Christian Right and if you include actions of states that are controlled by those from the Christian Right.

I'm not talking about governments - I know where you're going with this. Nice try.

I'm talking about the constant and unfair comparisons between fundamentalist muslims and fundamentalist christians.

I don't think many make those connections, in terms of the violence they commit. Obviously the Muslims are worse in that regard, since the Crusades anyways.

Fundamentalists from any camp are ridiculous idealists that need to learn how the real world functions though IMO.

[sharkman]

What you'll hear from the left is that someone who shoots an abortion doctor is the same as someone strapping a bomb on their back and blowing up a whole bus of innocents. I don't know how they can make these comparisons with a straight face, but they do. Never mind that the frequency of violent acts from Muslims far outpaces that of christian wackos.

IMO there are nutjobs in all religions that soil the reputation of that particular group, but the Muslim religion is the only one I know of that says its okay to kill an infidel. No other religion I can think of is cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Riverwind]

IMO there are nutjobs in all religions that soil the reputation of that particular group, but the Muslim religion is the only one I know of that says its okay to kill an infidel. No other religion I can think of is cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Witch burning was widely accepted by christians for hundreds of years. The spanish inquistion was as bloody as anything advocated by Muslim extremists. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 700 years of maturity.

If you look at Christianity in 3rd world countries you will find so-called Christians doing some pretty brutal things. The Lord's Resistance Army in Unganda is a good example.

Violance committed in the name of religion is really about politics and power - the actually religion involved has nothing to do with it.

[JerrySeinfeld]

IMO there are nutjobs in all religions that soil the reputation of that particular group, but the Muslim religion is the only one I know of that says its okay to kill an infidel. No other religion I can think of is cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Witch burning was widely accepted by christians for hundreds of years. The spanish inquistion was as bloody as anything advocated by Muslim extremists. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 700 years of maturity.

If you look at Christianity in 3rd world countries you will find so-called Christians doing some pretty brutal things. The Lord's Resistance Army in Unganda is a good example.

Violance committed in the name of religion is really about politics and power - the actually religion involved has nothing to do with it.

Lots of red herrings out there so far, so I'll ask again.

past 20 years: muslim zealots v. christian zealots. Is it a fair comparison given the vast divergence in body count.

[geoffrey]

IMO there are nutjobs in all religions that soil the reputation of that particular group, but the Muslim religion is the only one I know of that says its okay to kill an infidel. No other religion I can think of is cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Witch burning was widely accepted by christians for hundreds of years. The spanish inquistion was as bloody as anything advocated by Muslim extremists. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 700 years of maturity.

If you look at Christianity in 3rd world countries you will find so-called Christians doing some pretty brutal things. The Lord's Resistance Army in Unganda is a good example.

Violance committed in the name of religion is really about politics and power - the actually religion involved has nothing to do with it.

Lots of red herrings out there so far, so I'll ask again.

past 20 years: muslim zealots v. christian zealots. Is it a fair comparison given the vast divergence in body count.

Sparhawk's examples weren't red herrings.

You turn a blind eye to any trouble committed by your own side and dismiss them as non-Christian types and then bash every little example from the Muslim side.

I'll be the first (well, second to you obviously) to be extremely critical of much of the goings on of Muslim radicals and fundamentalists. I have no patience for any religion or state that justifies murder.

But to bring out a Christians vs. Muslim competition in who's killed fewer people is ridiculous.

Want another example of a Christian genocide against Muslims... how about Yugoslavia. There are so many examples, all these fundamentalists need to removed, Muslim or Christian.

Since you and I are both Christians Jerry (at least I assume you are from your uplifting of Christians to the destruction of all others), I'll suggest a passage from the Bible for ya, Matthew 7: 3-5:

"Why do you notice the small piece of dust that is in your brother's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood that is in your own eye? Why do you say to your brother, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'? Look at yourself first! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. You are a hypocrite. First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your brother's eye."

[JerrySeinfeld]

IMO there are nutjobs in all religions that soil the reputation of that particular group, but the Muslim religion is the only one I know of that says its okay to kill an infidel. No other religion I can think of is cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Witch burning was widely accepted by christians for hundreds of years. The spanish inquistion was as bloody as anything advocated by Muslim extremists. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 700 years of maturity.

If you look at Christianity in 3rd world countries you will find so-called Christians doing some pretty brutal things. The Lord's Resistance Army in Unganda is a good example.

Violance committed in the name of religion is really about politics and power - the actually religion involved has nothing to do with it.

Lots of red herrings out there so far, so I'll ask again.

past 20 years: muslim zealots v. christian zealots. Is it a fair comparison given the vast divergence in body count.

Sparhawk's examples weren't red herrings.

You turn a blind eye to any trouble committed by your own side and dismiss them as non-Christian types and then bash every little example from the Muslim side.

I'll be the first (well, second to you obviously) to be extremely critical of much of the goings on of Muslim radicals and fundamentalists. I have no patience for any religion or state that justifies murder.

But to bring out a Christians vs. Muslim competition in who's killed fewer people is ridiculous.

Want another example of a Christian genocide against Muslims... how about Yugoslavia. There are so many examples, all these fundamentalists need to removed, Muslim or Christian.

Since you and I are both Christians Jerry (at least I assume you are from your uplifting of Christians to the destruction of all others), I'll suggest a passage from the Bible for ya, Matthew 7: 3-5:

"Why do you notice the small piece of dust that is in your brother's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood that is in your own eye? Why do you say to your brother, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'? Look at yourself first! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. You are a hypocrite. First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your brother's eye."

Another red herring. Is anyone out there willing to admit the simple fact that over the past 20 years, muslim zealots have killed FAR more peopl than chistian zealots?

And in admitting this, you also admit that the comparison between the two is absolutely ridiculous.

In other words, in today's world: piss off a christian zealot and get a nasty letter. piss off a muslim zealot and risk getting killed. Big difference, fellas.

[Riverwind]

I'll be the first (well, second to you obviously) to be extremely critical of much of the goings on of Muslim radicals and fundamentalists. I have no patience for any religion or state that justifies murder.

When Pope John-Paul died there was a lot of coverage about his life and his beliefs. What struck me is how he was totally committed to his belief in the sanctity of life and did not waver from it. He opposed the war in Iraq as vigorously as he opposed abortion. He fought against capital punishment for the same reasons he fought against euthanasia. I don't agree with many of his views but the contrast between John-Paul and other Christian leaders who will justify killing depending on the circumstances is quite striking.

Another red herring. Is anyone out there willing to admit the simple fact that over the past 20 years, muslim zealots have killed FAR more peopl than chistian zealots?

It is correct to say people living in wealthy, liberal democratic states are less prone to religious and political violance than people living in poorer countries with authoritian regimes. In other words, if Christian zealots have killed fewer people in the last 20 years it is because Christians live in wealthy democratic countries and not because the is something better about Christianity.

And in admitting this, you also admit that the comparison between the two is absolutely ridiculous.

Absolutely not. Christianity and Islam have been around for centuries. You cannot make comparisons between the two unless you consider the complete history. In the times of the crusaders, the Christians were murderous barbarians that terrorized the relatively civilized Islamic societies in the middle east.

In other words, in today's world: piss off a christian zealot and get a nasty letter. piss off a muslim zealot and risk getting killed. Big difference, fellas.

Try telling that to anyone who works at an abortion clinic.

[geoffrey]

Another red herring. Is anyone out there willing to admit the simple fact that over the past 20 years, muslim zealots have killed FAR more peopl than chistian zealots?

And in admitting this, you also admit that the comparison between the two is absolutely ridiculous.

In other words, in today's world: piss off a christian zealot and get a nasty letter. piss off a muslim zealot and risk getting killed. Big difference, fellas.

How is that a red herring?

Could you explain to me how the comparison between the Christian zealot Milosevic and the Sunni Muslim zealot bin Laden? In fact, Milosevic had the direction over far more deaths than bin Laden has. Interesting eh?

Or in Ireland when those peaceful Christians slaughtered each other for many years.

There is so many examples when religion has been used as justification for violence, from all sides. There is a comparison to be made, like I just did.

I would actual maybe even venture the opinion that Christian zealots have killed on par with the Muslim zealots in the last twenty years.

Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Uganda...

[JerrySeinfeld]

quote]Try telling that to anyone who works at an abortion clinic.

OK so we're back tomy original question: body count over the past 20 years?

My estimate is something like:

Christians: 20-30 dead

Muslims: 5000+

yeeaaah. Good comparison guys.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Another red herring. Is anyone out there willing to admit the simple fact that over the past 20 years, muslim zealots have killed FAR more peopl than chistian zealots?

And in admitting this, you also admit that the comparison between the two is absolutely ridiculous.

In other words, in today's world: piss off a christian zealot and get a nasty letter. piss off a muslim zealot and risk getting killed. Big difference, fellas.

How is that a red herring?

Could you explain to me how the comparison between the Christian zealot Milosevic and the Sunni Muslim zealot bin Laden? In fact, Milosevic had the direction over far more deaths than bin Laden has. Interesting eh?

Or in Ireland when those peaceful Christians slaughtered each other for many years.

There is so many examples when religion has been used as justification for violence, from all sides. There is a comparison to be made, like I just did.

I would actual maybe even venture the opinion that Christian zealots have killed on par with the Muslim zealots in the last twenty years.

Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Uganda...

Yea...OK.

[geoffrey]

Yea...OK.

Is that all you've got, I'd assume you'd have a massive amount of numbers ready considering how fervently you seem to believe in this.

Can you name in the last twenty years where Muslim fundamentalists have killed more than the Christian extremists in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Uganda?

I can think of some major events... 9/11 being the biggest at about 3,000 right? If you are to include Sudan at the higher number, than Rwanda can definitely be brought in on the same abiguity. Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing (killing and rendering homeless of Muslim's by Serbian Christians) was massive.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yea...OK.

Is that all you've got, I'd assume you'd have a massive amount of numbers ready considering how fervently you seem to believe in this.

Can you name in the last twenty years where Muslim fundamentalists have killed more than the Christian extremists in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Uganda?

I can think of some major events... 9/11 being the biggest at about 3,000 right? If you are to include Sudan at the higher number, than Rwanda can definitely be brought in on the same abiguity. Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing (killing and rendering homeless of Muslim's by Serbian Christians) was massive.

This thread is about the christian right dude.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Can you name in the last twenty years where Muslim fundamentalists have killed more than the Christian extremists in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Uganda?

You're comparing a political massacre like RWANDA to suicide bombing muslims?

Sure, ya got me. In parts of the world there are conflicts between various groups, some of which involve christians versus christians, political groups conflicting (rwanda hutus and tutsis) and at times there may be Christians killing people.

And then we've got muslims versus everyone else.

It's not the same thing and everyone, even lefties, know it. The lefties just hate the idea of admitting it because that would mean they're siding with GW Bush.

[geoffrey]

Can you name in the last twenty years where Muslim fundamentalists have killed more than the Christian extremists in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Uganda?

You're comparing a political massacre like RWANDA to suicide bombing muslims?

Sure, ya got me. In parts of the world there are conflicts between various groups, some of which involve christians versus christians, political groups conflicting (rwanda hutus and tutsis) and at times there may be Christians killing people.

And then we've got muslims versus everyone else.

It's not the same thing and everyone, even lefties, know it. The lefties just hate the idea of admitting it because that would mean they're siding with GW Bush.

How is Christian's killing people different then Muslims killing people?

If your saying their religion makes them do it, then just look at all those Christian groups that kill people. I agree that Rwanda is a weak case, but Serbia is not a weak case.

There are crazies everywhere.

[sharkman]

No one has been able to fault my assertion that the Muslim religion sanctions the killing of 'infidels' as good and worthy of a reward whereas the Christian faith has no such teaching.

Back in the day the Christians and non Christians BOTH took a pretty dim view of witchcraft and were both guilty of killing them. But again, the Bible does not teach it's okay to kill anyone period. Murder is one of the 10 commandments.

Some of you seem stuck in comparing nations that are christian vs muslim. Serbians were not killing Croatians (or whomever) as obedience to the bible to get a holy reward. I'm afraid it was just garden variety hatred and racism. Muslims, on the other hand kill for holy reward.

But this is not about nations at war. This is about the religion of Islam teaching to kill people you consider infidels. The Christian teaching, on the other hand is to love the infidels. Pretty BIG difference.

BTW, what Christian extremists were killing in Uganda? Show me proof that any Christian extremists are doing any violence to get a heavenly reward as Muslims do.

[Riverwind]

OK so we're back tomy original question: body count over the past 20 years?

Your are trying to make a point based on a statistic that means nothing. Almost all of the killings by Muslims are a direct result of a political conflict over territory that has almost nothing to do with religion. The 9/11 attacks were purely political and intended to pressure the US to get out of the middle east.

Sure, Christians don't strap on suicide belts and blow up buses but Muslims don't have access to smart bombs and cruise missiles that can do the dirty work. If Muslims had access to that kind of technology they probably would not waste their time with suicide bombs.

[sharkman]

Uh, show me what christian org has access to smart bombs. The U.S. gov is not a Christian organizaiton, Focus on the Family is. I hope you are not so niave to think that just because Bush, a Christian, is president that it makes the entire government somehow 'Christian'. There are no nations that have God as the deity leader.

Again, the Muslim religion teaches to kill infidels for heavenly reward. Christianity teaches its wrong to murder for any reason. If you won't admit this is true, Sparhawk, it doesn't lessen the truth of it.

[Riverwind]

Again, the Muslim religion teaches to kill infidels for heavenly reward. Christianity teaches its wrong to murder for any reason.

Really? Please explain these quotes from Exodus 21:

15 Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

16 A kidnaper, whether he sells his victim or still has him when caught, shall be put to death.

17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

Seems to me that killing someone for swearing at his parents is pretty excessive. Of course, you will probably respond with something about how good Christians ignore the parts of the bible that don't make any sense. If you are honest with yourself you will acknowledge that the Christian bible can be perverted to justify evil things just like the Quran can.

The same passage goes on to talk about an eye for a eye and a tooth for tooth - the wonderful phrase that can be used to justify almost anything if you believe you have been wronged in some way.

When Christian groups feel they have no other choice to achieve their ends they will kill and justify it with Christian teachings. In the last generation or so those killings have been limited to abortion doctors and about anyone in Northern Ireland. However, the relatively low numbers of religious murders in Christian societies compared to Muslim societies does not make Christianity any better than Islam - 2000 years of bloody history prove otherwise.

If you want to explain why so many Muslims today seem to be willing to resort to violence today then you must look for explanations other than religion. The primary cause of the violence is a deep seated resentment towards the wealth and power of the 'western' societies. This resentment would likely be there no matter what the 'west' did because the backward nature of Muslim societies is not the fault of the west, Rather, it has been largely caused by Muslims refusing to learn from their neighbors like many other cultures (e.g. the Japanese) have done/are doing. That said, American foreign policy during the last 50 years has certainly made a bad situation worse.

[Nocrap]

Yea...OK.

Is that all you've got, I'd assume you'd have a massive amount of numbers ready considering how fervently you seem to believe in this.

Can you name in the last twenty years where Muslim fundamentalists have killed more than the Christian extremists in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Uganda?

I can think of some major events... 9/11 being the biggest at about 3,000 right? If you are to include Sudan at the higher number, than Rwanda can definitely be brought in on the same abiguity. Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing (killing and rendering homeless of Muslim's by Serbian Christians) was massive.

Ok. Of the 3,000 people killed in 9/11 not all were Christians. I remember watching some of the services and the victims represented many different cultures and religions.

The attack was against Americans - not Christians.

[scribblet]

The 9/11 attack was against the 'infidel' or any non-muslim.

Christians who have committed atrocities are acting in complete opposition to the teachings in the new testament, whereas Muslims are acting in accordance with direct teachings from the Koran. Its definitely okay to kill an 'infidel'. Not to mention that slavery is alive and well in some Muslim countries.

The Crusades were actually a backlash against Muslim expansionism and agression, and it is fundamnetal Islamic teaching to forcibly convert non-Muslims or kill them if they refuse to submit to Allah. The current waves of terrorism and jihds are not in opposition to their teafhings, but are consistent with their teachings.

From the very start of Islam it wasspread by the sword, and they have never renounced it.

Either way, we need to look at today and the future, not the past. Some liberals might be getting knickers in a knot over these 'evil Christians' wanting prayers in school or the ten commandments kept on govt property, but let me know whyen they start beheading innocent hostages and blowing up buildings and people with their own kids, then we can make comparisons.

[sharkman]

Again, the Muslim religion teaches to kill infidels for heavenly reward. Christianity teaches its wrong to murder for any reason.

Really? Please explain these quotes from Exodus 21:

15 Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

16 A kidnaper, whether he sells his victim or still has him when caught, shall be put to death.

17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

Seems to me that killing someone for swearing at his parents is pretty excessive. Of course, you will probably respond with something about how good Christians ignore the parts of the bible that don't make any sense. If you are honest with yourself you will acknowledge that the Christian bible can be perverted to justify evil things just like the Quran can.

The same passage goes on to talk about an eye for a eye and a tooth for tooth - the wonderful phrase that can be used to justify almost anything if you believe you have been wronged in some way.

When Christian groups feel they have no other choice to achieve their ends they will kill and justify it with Christian teachings. In the last generation or so those killings have been limited to abortion doctors and about anyone in Northern Ireland. However, the relatively low numbers of religious murders in Christian societies compared to Muslim societies does not make Christianity any better than Islam - 2000 years of bloody history prove otherwise.

If you want to explain why so many Muslims today seem to be willing to resort to violence today then you must look for explanations other than religion. The primary cause of the violence is a deep seated resentment towards the wealth and power of the 'western' societies. This resentment would likely be there no matter what the 'west' did because the backward nature of Muslim societies is not the fault of the west, Rather, it has been largely caused by Muslims refusing to learn from their neighbors like many other cultures (e.g. the Japanese) have done/are doing. That said, American foreign policy during the last 50 years has certainly made a bad situation worse.

I'd be happy to explain those verses from Exodus. Those were the laws the Jews lived by in somewhere around 2000 B.C. Those laws were replaced a long time ago. They don't sacrifice animals anymore either. In the New Testament, Jesus refers to the eye for an eye teaching and responds that his followers should offer the other cheek when one side of their face gets slapped instead. Even then, however, those old teachings did not promise 72 virgins in heaven for killing. They were capital punishment laws, which are still in place in many parts of the world, including Muslim ones, which also have current laws that order the cutting off the hand of a thief.

As for Ireland, again, they were not killing in obedience to biblical teaching that promised rewards in heaven. Just more garden variety hatred and racism.

Muslims are free to kill infidels because their religion teaches it. Resenment of Western countries or refusing to learn from their neighbors is a direct result of their religion! On other threads we talk about abortion, gay issues and porn. Any guess what their governments do to abortion docs, gays and pornographers in Muslim countries? In Canada and the U.S., which you seem to think is Christian, the government does nothing.

[PocketRocket]

OK so we're back tomy original question: body count over the past 20 years?

My estimate is something like:

Christians: 20-30 dead

Muslims: 5000+

yeeaaah. Good comparison guys.

Take a look at Ireland. More than 20-30 there in the requisite period.

These include bombings aimed at civilian populations.

These aren't even Christian vs some other religion, it's Catholics vs Protestants.

Let's all kill each other over how we choose to worship the same God!!!

I agree, Muslim originated killings are higher in recent times, but this does not let ANY religious extremist off the hook.