Theses on Capitalism

[Winterhaze13]

Theses on Capitalism

1. Capitalism is elitist in that it creates a new aristocracy based in capital accumulation that makes up the ruling class in a democracy.

2. Capitalism exploits the disadvantaged in society by paying the most needy less, in order to boost profits. As a result, many of the disadvantaged are left behind in society, creating apathy. Inc. Single mothers, immigrants, ext.

3. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy in the sense that capitalism is competitive while democracy should be cooperative.

4. Capitalism creates conflict in society by pinning citizens against one another in the pursuit for capital.

5. Capitalism creates powerful multi-national corporations that often act out of self interest and never out of the common good of society. Corporations don’t support social justice.

6. Corporations have come to influence and even dictate state policy while preventing equality and social justice that conflicts with their economic interests. Capitalism keeps democracy from reaching its full potential.

7. In capitalism the employer pays their workers the lowest possible wage in order to maximize profit. In doing so, they prevent the economic welfare of their workers. Also, they do not promote equal pay for equal work.

8. Capitalism creates a discrepancy in wealth. In the United States, the wealthiest 20% possess almost half the wealth, while the poorest 20% possess roughly 5%. Source: World Bank

9. Capitalism does not permit universal education and therefore prevents social equality. It has created a money-driven society where the best education is available only to the wealthy because of inflating tuition costs.

10. Most politicians are wealthy and have business links when going into politics. As a result, this prevents them from acting out of the best interests of their constituents. Instead, they protect business interests in hopes that major corporations will fund their campaign.

11. Capitalism creates a situation where a large portion of the wealth resides in a small minority of individuals of society which are relied on heavily to drive production. As a result of this heavy concentration, the purchasing power of individuals is limited and as a result demand often wanes. This is what causes recessions.

12. Capitalism’s imperial tendencies allow multi-national corporations to exploit foreign labour to drive down production costs and increase profit. This is the reality of neo-liberalism and globalization where non-industrial economies struggle to compete with more efficient and flexible companies.

13. Capitalism has an insatiable appetite for new markets and resources which leads to competition and thenceforth conflict between states.

14. Capitalism encourages poverty and unemployment in the interest of keeping wages and inflation low. This marginalization prevents equal work of equal value.

15. Capitalism often separates economic good from social good because economic production is often achieved through (human or resource) exploitative means.

http://www.communalknighthood.blogspot.com/

[Renegade]

A little one-sided in our view aren't we?

[geoffrey]

What do you expect from a communist?

This is the third time he's posted this I think.

[uOttawaMan]

Yawn with yawning.

[wellandboy]

I hear it's a hit in North Korea.

[lost&outofcontrol]

I hear it's a hit in North Korea.

Totalitarianism is the hit in North Korea, definitely not Communism.

[geoffrey]

I hear it's a hit in North Korea.

Totalitarianism is the hit in North Korea, definitely not Communism.

Sure it is. Protectionist type centrally planned economy in a dictatorship. Thats pretty much the definition of communism.

Any pro-Marxists I've met just use the 'Oh Marx is misunderstood', when really, in books like the Manifesto, its awfully clear what communism is. Class warfare, and dictatorship.

I wonder how many more people will die and be oppressed before all these communists realise it doesn't work. The fascists learnt eventually, I still have faith the communists will too.

[lost&outofcontrol]

What do you expect from a communist?

This is the third time he's posted this I think.

He posted the same thing 3 times and he's a communist = bad , so all communist are bad ? Is that how your logic works.

Communist = bad person ?

Nice ad hominem.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Sure it is. Protectionist type centrally planned economy in a dictatorship. Thats pretty much the definition of communism.

Actually no, it's not.

Any pro-Marxists I've met just use the 'Oh Marx is misunderstood', when really, in books like the Manifesto, its awfully clear what communism is. Class warfare, and dictatorship.

I wonder how many more people will die and be oppressed before all these communists realise it doesn't work. The fascists learnt eventually, I still have faith the communists will too.

Nobody has died for communism since there hasn't been a communist state yet. You say Class warfare and dictatorship and that makes you a freaking god of Marxism. Have you actually read Capital and the Communist manifesto ? Do you even know what the proletariat is ? If you would of read the Manifesto, you would know that there's a massive difference between what Marx advocated and what Lenin did, from the way the revolution took place to the way the country was run. For crying out loud if you're gonna bad mouth something have the decency to know what you're crapping on.

**edit** I figure I might as well give you a quick course while I'm at it concerning the "Dictatorship of the proletariat"

From wikipedia

Dictatorship of the proletariat is a term employed by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program that refers to a transition period between capitalist and communist society "in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat". The term refers to a concentration of power in which rule by the proletariat (working class) would supplant the current political situation controlled by the bourgeoisie (propertied class). It does not refer to the repressive situation associated with the contemporary meaning of the term "dictatorship."

Marx called capitalism the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which he believed would be superseded by the dictatorship of the proletariat, which in turn would be superseded by a classless and stateless society known as communism

[geoffrey]

Sure it is. Protectionist type centrally planned economy in a dictatorship. Thats pretty much the definition of communism.

Actually no, it's not.

Any pro-Marxists I've met just use the 'Oh Marx is misunderstood', when really, in books like the Manifesto, its awfully clear what communism is. Class warfare, and dictatorship.

I wonder how many more people will die and be oppressed before all these communists realise it doesn't work. The fascists learnt eventually, I still have faith the communists will too.

Nobody has died for communism since there hasn't been a communist state yet. You say Class warfare and dictatorship and that makes you a freaking god of Marxism. Have you actually read Capital and the Communist manifesto ? Do you even know what the proletariat is ? If you don't know anything about the subject you're attacking how about keeping your mouth shut until you do. If you would of read the Manifesto, you would know that there's a massive difference between what Marx advocated and what Lenin did, from the way the revolution took place to the way the country was run. For crying out loud if you're gonna bad mouth something have the decency to know what you're crapping on.

I actually do know what Marx advocated and how it differs from Lenin's implementation. I have read Capital and the Communist Manifesto (both are on my bookshelf 2 feet from my arm right now).

You should know that the dialectic is historically false, just as my first criticism of Marxism.

Somethings:

"The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: Formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat."

It's very intolerant. The bourgeois have supported the existance of the proletariate for all time, yet first thing they do when they are in power, destroy the bourgeois. How silly. What are you going to do without the educated, management class? Have workers run a country? They are incapable, they don't have the knowledge to do so.

Remember, Marx wasn't a worker. Workers generally don't have the mental capacity to be leaders, thats why they are workers. Not that I see them as any less valuable, just people have places and roles.

"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

Sorry, I like my property (I know he means money, and not petty property). I have to suggest the concept of "nobody washes a rental car." Until people own things, they have no responsibility towards anything. Why would I bother working? For the good of the state? In that situation, I'd much rather work for fascists because at least they compensate me for my ability and efforts. Communism gets milked by 95% of people in it, highly inefficient.

Or how about the ten concept's from the Manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Why take care of something that you don't own? I know I wouldn't.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

To create a society were progress is punished.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Families are invalid units says Marx.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Because those that don't agree with communism are obviously ridiculous.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Central banking is a great concept, as long as consumer and business banking services are provided by the private sector.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

I mean, progress and innovation are bad things to want in industry. So lets nationalize it.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Improving soil? Lets do it, fine with me.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Equal obligation to only do the bare minimum in life. Anything above that is punished harshly with that massive progressive income tax.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Nothing wrong with this if its more efficient.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Already done that in Canada. Suprisingly, generally the communists in our society want everyone to have a university education. This isn't what Marx advocates. He advocates trades education.

Since we are on extremist radical views in this discussion, I'd take Fascism over Communism anyday.

I'd also take our current capitalist democracy over any of those without second thought.

[lost&outofcontrol]

How silly. What are you going to do without the educated, management class? Have workers run a country? They are incapable, they don't have the knowledge to do so.

Remember, Marx wasn't a worker. Workers generally don't have the mental capacity to be leaders, thats why they are workers. Not that I see them as any less valuable, just people have places and roles.

Wow ! So the world is segregated by how intelligent people are. Rich people are smarter than poor people. Poor people need rich people for their superior intellect. Without them, the poor would be...poorer. Never mind the fact that workers "don't have the knowledge to do so" even though many Venezuelan factories are run by the workers themselves.

Kids who comes from privileged backgrounds are smarter than the rest of us. All this time I though people were created equal. I guess this means kids born into a privileged family are automatically smarter than us peons.

If you truly believe in this crap, I promise I won't ever argue with you again, I'm just too scared of you really.

[geoffrey]

Wow ! So the world is segregated by how intelligent people are. Rich people are smarter than poor people. Poor people need rich people for their superior intellect. Without them, the poor would be...poorer. Never mind the fact that workers "don't have the knowledge to do so" even though many Venezuelan factories are run by the workers themselves.

Kids who comes from privileged backgrounds are smarter than the rest of us. All this time I though people were created equal. I guess this means kids born into a privileged family are automatically smarter than us peons.

If you truly believe in this crap, I promise I won't ever argue with you again, I'm just too scared of you really.

Yes, the economic prosperity of Venezuelan factories show how well they can run things.

Some smart people choose to be poor. I'm not saying monetary worth=intellectual capacity. There are other factors at play.

I didn't say kids who come from more priviledge backgrounds are smarter. Some people are smarter and some aren't, no matter what your born into. I don't accept this blaming your previous social status for your current position.

There are too many rags to riches stories to prove that. And too many riches to rags as well.

Success in general is based on ability and motivation. If you have both, you will be successful 9 times out of 10. There are always exceptions of course. You have your Belinda types that are born into massive wealth. You have people that are physically incapable of success due to real handicaps.

This also includes your definition of success. Some people feel successfully if they end up where their parents were at and thats completely ok. They are happy, and thats the goal isn't it?

I'll even quote a former communist turned socialist on this concept (I love using this guy against those that love him dearly, or well, should love him dearly for being closest to their views):

"Luck, that's when preparation and opportunity meet." - Pierre Trudeau

No excuses. You are what you are from your own accord. Success and failure are measured on your merits and wants out of life. That is the beauty of the liberal system.

Poor people do need rich people. Just as those with lesser intellects need smarter people to watch their backs. Thats the point of having a government and not just grassroots democracy on everything. These needs also apply to the inverses.

Call it elitist all you want. It is reality.

[lost&outofcontrol]

No excuses. You are what you are from your own accord. Success and failure are measured on your merits and wants out of life. That is the beauty of the liberal system.

Poor people do need rich people. Just as those with lesser intellects need smarter people to watch their backs. Thats the point of having a government and not just grassroots democracy on everything. These needs also apply to the inverses.

Call it elitist all you want. It is reality.

Great, now I dare you to tell this to half the population of the world that lives in poverty. Tell them the beauty of the liberal system we live in and that your successes and failures are measured on your merits and wants out of life. I dare you !

[geoffrey]

No excuses. You are what you are from your own accord. Success and failure are measured on your merits and wants out of life. That is the beauty of the liberal system.

Poor people do need rich people. Just as those with lesser intellects need smarter people to watch their backs. Thats the point of having a government and not just grassroots democracy on everything. These needs also apply to the inverses.

Call it elitist all you want. It is reality.

Great, now I dare you to tell this to half the population of the world that lives in poverty. Tell them the beauty of the liberal system we live in and that your successes and failures are measured on your merits and wants out of life. I dare you !

I would gladly. Give them some confidence that a little hard work and a willingness to change would go a long way.

Why is there 15+% unemployment in Newfoundland and 3.1% in Alberta or 4.4 in Manitoba? The Maritimes have been underemployed by the rest of Canada's standards for decades. Why won't these people move to Alberta where we have a labour shortage? Because of a lack of motivation to make their life better.

It's completely up to them in Canada why they are poor. Poverty in this country is a choice.

On the world stage, people in 3rd world countries are being abused by pseudo-communist/fascist regimes and they aren't allowed to reach their economic potential. A lot of places simply have no resource. Get them to move.

Thats a big thing in why many people are poor too. They refuse to give up their homes in an economically impossible area in exchange for a comfortable, productive lifestyle elsewhere in the world. Those trapped in Africa, I have sympathy for. But even there, there is rags to riches stories, so its not like its impossible.

[Spike22]

Winterhaze13 - glad to see your political science course is paying off. Are you trying to sell something? Are you thinking of starting a commune based on these principles? Far out dude, enjoy the trip back to your mother planet - yeck.

[uOttawaMan]

The part that I laugh at, is he posts once, never comments on it again, and everyone else flames the hell out of each other.

[August1991]

I'll even quote a former communist turned socialist on this concept (I love using this guy against those that love him dearly, or well, should love him dearly for being closest to their views):

"Luck, that's when preparation and opportunity meet." - Pierre Trudeau

No excuses. You are what you are from your own accord. Success and failure are measured on your merits and wants out of life. That is the beauty of the liberal system.

Geoff, for what follows, I'm going to assume you are in Alberta.

There was a time when Albertans were dirt poor. Newfoundlanders sent Albertans dried fish to eat because Albertans had nothing else.

Then, as luck would have it, oil was found under Alberta's soil. (Or, people in Alberta happened to choose the right place to set up their homes.)

The rest, as they say, is history.

IOW, it is utterly wrong to draw a moral conclusion from one's material success in this world; and it is particularly wrong when the material success is based on such a chance discovery. By that standard, Saudi Sheikhs are a perfect example of the success of a liberal system.

[geoffrey]

I'll even quote a former communist turned socialist on this concept (I love using this guy against those that love him dearly, or well, should love him dearly for being closest to their views):

"Luck, that's when preparation and opportunity meet." - Pierre Trudeau

No excuses. You are what you are from your own accord. Success and failure are measured on your merits and wants out of life. That is the beauty of the liberal system.

Geoff, for what follows, I'm going to assume you are in Alberta.

There was a time when Albertans were dirt poor. Newfoundlanders sent Albertans dried fish to eat because Albertans had nothing else.

Then, as luck would have it, oil was found under Alberta's soil. (Or, people in Alberta happened to choose the right place to set up their homes.)

The rest, as they say, is history.

IOW, it is utterly wrong to draw a moral conclusion from one's material success in this world; and it is particularly wrong when the material success is based on such a chance discovery. By that standard, Saudi Sheikhs are a perfect example of the success of a liberal system.

I'm saying that under ideal situations this would prevail. There is nothing stopping those Newfoundlanders from moving to Alberta like they should, or Albertans moving there when the situation was reversed. Both were equally responsible for their way of life. In Canada, poverty is said choice. In the world, its a little different because people don't have the economic and political rights that we do. You get people like the Saudi Sheikhs.

By the way, just to establish some statistical reference to my Alberta comments, Alberta has been a 'have' province without exception since 1960. Even through the NEP destruction left by Trudeau we were contributing to confederation. Newfoundland, for example, has been receiving payments from the Federal government long before the cod ran out, since 1960 actually (thats as far back as my statistics at hand go).

BC, Alberta and Ontario have pretty much pulled the weight for the rest of Canada for a long time now (Alberta 4 times as much as the other two, even through the NEP recession years). It's time for those unemployed in the Maritimes and Quebec to get out here and start filling our labour shortage. We are the only country in the world that maintains a massively unemployed population on social welfare on one coast while on the other we can't find enough people to pay massively inflated wages to keep our economy growing. Construction projects have all slowed because there isn't any workers anymore.

I don't buy your logic in what you've said. Oil has been a big part of Alberta's wealth no doubt. I don't see what that has to do with Newfoundlanders refusing to move out here and fill high paying positions and getting off EI. Those in Newfoundland (and other provinces that have high unemployment, Maritimes + Quebec) right now are being an unneccessary burden on our social programs, and yes, its all about motivation. Why get off welfare when and move to be productive when you can get paid $0.80 on the working dollar and sit in your PJ's all day?

If people in Canada want to get of welfare and make a living, there is no reason they can't. Poverty is clearly a choice in this country and a choice in most of the free world.

[JerrySeinfeld]

A little one-sided in our view aren't we?

Memo to you, John Stewart, George Clooney et al...the cold war is over dude - you lost.

[Renegade]

A little one-sided in our view aren't we?

Memo to you, John Stewart, George Clooney et al...the cold war is over dude - you lost.

huh? WTF are you talking about?

[lost&outofcontrol]

If people in Canada want to get of welfare and make a living, there is no reason they can't. Poverty is clearly a choice in this country and a choice in most of the free world.

The vast majory of people living below the poverty line in Canada actually work. That means that a worker without any skills but who still manages to find work at minimum wage is poor ! But then again it's all choice, everyone can be a millionaire according to you. Wonder why only a few actually are ? One in five are lazy communist dogs, thats what they are, ya... By the way, do you know how much someone makes per year by working minimum wage ?

I still can't believe you would think someone chooses to be poor and miserable.

[geoffrey]

If people in Canada want to get of welfare and make a living, there is no reason they can't. Poverty is clearly a choice in this country and a choice in most of the free world.

The vast majory of people living below the poverty line in Canada actually work. That means that a worker without any skills but who still manages to find work at minimum wage is poor ! But then again it's all choice, everyone can be a millionaire according to you. Wonder why only a few actually are ? One in five are lazy communist dogs, thats what they are, ya... By the way, do you know how much someone makes per year by working minimum wage ?

I still can't believe you would think someone chooses to be poor and miserable.

I personally don't believe that having an apartment and enough food to get by is poverty.

It's poor compared to the rest of Canada, but compared to the rest of the world, its pretty well off.

Ya, in Alberta minimum wage pays around $14,000 a year... though you'd be hard pressed to avoid all jobs paying above minimum for unskilled labour. The school boards are paying janitors $14/hr right now. Plus, there is always the option to work another job.

The big question, why didn't these people choose to go to school? Thats always an option, some people choose to not go so really thats just one of those choices that lead to a lesser standard of living.

[Spike22]

The part that I laugh at, is he posts once, never comments on it again, and everyone else flames the hell out of each other.

Fun huh!!!!

[Wilber]

"Marx called capitalism the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which he believed would be superseded by the dictatorship of the proletariat, which in turn would be superseded by a classless and stateless society known as communism"

Need any other explanation why it can't work? Pure nonsense. The concept goes completely against human nature.

[lost&outofcontrol]

"Marx called capitalism the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which he believed would be superseded by the dictatorship of the proletariat, which in turn would be superseded by a classless and stateless society known as communism"

Need any other explanation why it can't work? Pure nonsense. The concept goes completely against human nature.

I need more info on why it can't work, I'd actually like to know why you personally think it can't work.