Supporting the troops...progressive liberal style

[Montgomery Burns]

No, this is not about progressives protesting outside the Walter Reed Military Hospital, complete with props like flag-draped coffins, and taunting injured soldiers.

No, this is not about leftists chasing military recruiters off campuses.

No, this is not about gay-hating registered Democrat "Reverend" Fred Phelps and his band of merry godhatesfags weasels protesting during the funerals of fallen soldiers.

Let's put on our asbestos suits and go for a tour inside the Democratic Underground Message Boards (DUMB). This is the largest Democratic community on the internet. It is wildly popular on the left. John Edwards' wife has posted there and so has Michigan Congressman John Conyers.

It is a partisan site. Don't expect anything fair-and-balanced. One of their message board rules states "If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned."

So.....a thread is started:

The Sad Little Pony (206 posts)

I just got home from Iraq....

As some may recall, I was mobilized and sent to Iraq (Fallujah and West Anbar) for the past 8 months.

It was interesting, to say the least. I served as an advisor to an Iraqi Army Battlaion, as both the infantry advisor and an intelligence advisor.

Does anyone have any questions about my tour/what it's like/etc.?

I just got home on Friday. (saw my 7 month old son for the first time).

Okay. One of the few Democrats in Iraq has come home after 8 months, drops into the DU and asks if anyone has any questions about his tour/what's it like/etc?

The 3rd reply was this from Freedomangel82:

do you know if it's true that now there are none Iraq troops ready? I heard this on Stephanie Miller's show earlier.

Well, if Stephanie Miller from "progressive" talk (hate) radio says so, then it must be true.

The soldier replies:

It's not true. I'd say that about half of the Iraqi Battalions are ready to operate independently. Our Battalion (as did many other) had its own battlespace in Fallujah. They were very successful. With less support and assets, they managed to capture more "bad guys" than any of the Marine units of equal size (Companies). They lack competent logistical support from higher, though. Much of that is due to corruption in the higher ranks of the Iraqi Army/MOD.

And then it goes downhill from there.

The progressives immediately want to know about depleted uranium, white phosphorus, the civil war, the quagmire, atrocities committed by contractors, low troop morale (the *shocking* poll that said that 72% of the troops would like to be back home with their families within the next 12 months), how can he gauge the attitude of the Iraqi soldiers if his Arabic is poor (soldier replies: You try going on a couple hundred combat patrols with the Iraqis. You learn their attitude pretty fast), and a bunch of other leftoid memes that run rampant in the "reality-based" community.

The soldier calmly and politely dismisses their allegations and suggests that the media is not telling the truth about Iraq. (Duh!) The progressives don't like what the soldier is telling them, so DU poster 'Jara sang' replies to the soldier:

So things are going swimmingly in Iraq? And you have seen no evidence of an impending civil war? Just curious... why are you propagandizing this information on DU?

To the conservative f*ck wads that are lurking here. First off let me say you are all cowards. Michelle Malkin is a racist bitch. Rush is a coward who did not serve in the military neither did that limp-dicked Sean Hannity. You people are the most pathetic excuses for human beings and you will have your day to answer for the atrocities and lies that you have perpetrated. You are all cowards. The entire planet despises your disgusting ilk and you will pay. I understand that as most of your parents were indeed siblings your inability to be decent human beings who contribute to society rests in your defective genes. Now you may return to your hate and racism. I once had a "Bad Cat" who would not behave. I put him down because he was diseased and I didn't give it a second thought. You inbred sacks of sh*t, return to your basements or holes or wherever you crawled from.

I can just feel the tolerance and compassion...

Incredibly, the soldier remains civil and continues to politely answer any questions, but the progressive liberals do not like his answers. So they attack him and say that he is brainwashed, a liar, and stupid.

Unbelieveably the soldier still ignores the verbal abuse and continues to be civil. Then further down the page 'Nini" posts to the soldier: Why is your profile disabled?

Yep. The commie moderators at the DUMB banned the soldier for not marching in lockstep with the left's talking points. This soldier was essentially politely "dissenting", yet they banned him. But I thought that "dissent was patriotic". Or is it because he was being patriotic when he dissented from progressive liberal moonbat memes? Can't have any patriotism--except when dissenting...but he got banned for dissenting.

It's so confusing being a progressive liberal!

Note: The soldier never said anything about Bush and he did not say anything about conservative ideals--banning offences.

[geoffrey]

Call me crazy, but I hear way more positive accounts about Afghanistan from my friend serving there then in the media.

The truth is, success doesn't make a good lead story. If people haven't died, if things haven't blown up, and if the Americans aren't responsible for some horrible occurance, you won't hear about it.

Saving children in hospitals from childhood disease, and soccer/cricket games between the locals and the troops aren't really breaking news material.

[America1]

Call me crazy, but I hear way more positive accounts about Afghanistan from my friend serving there then in the media.

The truth is, success doesn't make a good lead story. If people haven't died, if things haven't blown up, and if the Americans aren't responsible for some horrible occurance, you won't hear about it.

Saving children in hospitals from childhood disease, and soccer/cricket games between the locals and the troops aren't really breaking news material.

Of course its not news worthy for a media that is almost completely against the war and the Bush admin.

[Black Dog]

The progressives immediately want to know about depleted uranium, white phosphorus, the civil war, the quagmire, atrocities committed by contractors, low troop morale (the *shocking* poll that said that 72% of the troops would like to be back home with their families within the next 12 months), how can he gauge the attitude of the Iraqi soldiers if his Arabic is poor (soldier replies: You try going on a couple hundred combat patrols with the Iraqis. You learn their attitude pretty fast), and a bunch of other leftoid memes that run rampant in the "reality-based" community.

Congrats on the bambino and welcome home. Hope you stay for a long time.

First, how are you doing? I hope all is well and kiss that baby!

No questions here...just very glad to have you back. Have fun with the baby!

have to say about your tour and any thoughts you have about the war in general. I'm glad you made it home safely and have gotten to meet your little son. I hope you don't ever have to go back over there and all your fellow soldiers can come home too--safely.

I remember your good-bye thread! I am so glad you made it home safe (and hopefully sound!).

Congrats on your little boy!

No questions at this time....

Welcome home and thank you for your sacrifice

It must have been very difficult to know your wife was delivering your son and you could not be there.

Seeing your new son for the first time must have been a wonderful experience. Take care.

Those evil Demmykrats!!!

As for the individual being banned, I can't tell because I'm not a DU member, I suspect Monty isn't either and that he's jumping to conclusions based on a paucity of evidence. Again.

[gerryhatrick]

No, this is not about gay-hating registered Democrat "Reverend" Fred Phelps and his band of merry godhatesfags weasels protesting during the funerals of fallen soldiers.

I've never seen anything more despicable than you trying to besmirch your political opponents by claiming they're affiliated somehow with a cultist madman.

Phelps picketed the Clinton WH telling him he and Gore were on thier way to hell.

People have expressed the hope that the level of debate be raised here. Starts with folks like yourself, I'd say.

Shall we talk about all the registered Republican serial killers? You are aware that more serial killers are Republican, aren't you? Guess that really says somethign about the Republican party, huh monty?

Don't waste our time with your hateful ramblings.

[Montgomery Burns]

Gerryhatrick:

I've never seen anything more despicable than you trying to besmirch your political opponents by claiming they're affiliated somehow with a cultist madman.

Don't get your shorts in a bunch. What is despicable are the people who constantly call Phelps a Republican when he is in fact a registered Democrat.

Would it be more despicable if I mentioned that former Grand Kleagle of the KKK--Robert Byrd--lovingly called "the conscience of the Senate" by the Democrats, and as recently as 2001 used the term "white n*ggers (twice) on the air? Or doesn't that count because he uttered the phrase on the Faux News Channel?

Phelps picketed the Clinton WH telling him he and Gore were on thier way to hell.

Phelps was a delegate for Al Gore's 1988 Democrat Presidential bid, and Fred Phelp, Jr and his wife were given tickets and were guests at Clinton's January 1993 inauguration. Want to see some pics of Phelps and Gore together?

People have expressed the hope that the level of debate be raised here. Starts with folks like yourself, I'd say.

A bigot like you (look at my signature) has nerve lecturing someone on messageboard decorum.

Shall we talk about all the registered Republican serial killers? You are aware that more serial killers are Republican, aren't you? Guess that really says somethign about the Republican party, huh monty?

I have never heard that but you have gall lecturing on killers. Leftist monsters like Stalin, Chairman Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Hussein, etc, killed hundreds of millions of innocents during the 20th Century.

The left's hands are drenched with the blood of innocents.

[Liam]

Hitler (and Mussolini and the juntas thay fomented decades of "dirty wars" across Latin America) was a right winger. Mussolini explained that fascism was better termed corporatism as it is the merging of a country's corporate and political spheres. Hitler was no liberal. Hitler despised liberals.

[Montgomery Burns]

Hitler (and Mussolini and the juntas thay fomented decades of "dirty wars" across Latin America) was a right winger. Mussolini explained that fascism was better termed corporatism as it is the merging of a country's corporate and political spheres. Hitler was no liberal. Hitler despised liberals.

Hitler was a socialist. He despised capitalism and championed socialism. Nazi is short for National Socialist German Workers Party.

Have you ever read Hitler's manifesto for the Nazi Party?

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

Those evil Demmykrats!!!

Popular Lefty rag shows its support for the troops:

Dear former Salon Premium member,

Three weeks ago, Salon released 18 photos from Abu Ghraib prison that had never been publicly available, along with documentation of the Army's own investigation into the disturbing images. Reaction was swift and strong; some accused us of undermining American interests, while others took us to task for not publishing every image in our possession. Most feedback praised our decision to highlight a scandal that's been largely underreported by the mainstream media.

Underreported by the media? WTF is this woman smoking?

We're planning to release hundreds more photos taken inside Abu Ghraib. Using information found in a U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID) report and other sources, our news team is cataloging each image so we may provide captions that offer critical context. Our goal is to publish newsworthy pictures that haven't been widely seen before, providing the best information that the CID investigation materials could offer.

I'm contacting you and other former Salon Premium members to make sure these photos reach a large audience. Your expired Premium membership supported our ongoing mission to speak truth to power, but we need your help again now.

I'd like to urge you to renew your Premium membership now through this link to give us the support we need to continue this important work...

As we create an Abu Ghraib archive, we will aim to shed light on what the administration has determined to keep dark. In giving the American electorate the information it needs, we'll try to provide some of the transparency our government has so sorely lacked.

We'll do our job with integrity and diligence. That, of course, takes time. So thanks for your patience, your trust, and your support.

Sincerely,

Joan Walsh

Editor in chief, Salon

Renew your subscription and we will post hundreds more Abu Ghraib pics!....but we support America's troops. This story was beaten to death 2 years ago, the perpetrators have been punished; pathetic of Salon. And yet Salon refused to publish the Mohammed cartoons because they are accessible elsewhere on the web...

[Liam]

Hitler was a socialist. He despised capitalism and championed socialism. Nazi is short for National Socialist German Workers Party.

Have you ever read Hitler's manifesto for the Nazi Party?

Yes, I have read some of Hitler's writings. Hitler was not at all a "lefty" and you are sadly wrong if you think so. Hitler believed the #1 evil in the world was Soviet-style socialism, partly due to his belief that it was a way to concentrate power in the hands of Jews, but primarily because it's political theories were diametrically opposed to Hitler's corporatist beliefs. Fascism, as practiced by Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc., was not a leftist philosophy. If anything, Communists and Socialists were their biggest enemy. Hitler's main beef with western-style capitalism is that he believed it encouraged race mixing and the mongrelization of pure European blood.

[tml12]

Hitler was a socialist. He despised capitalism and championed socialism. Nazi is short for National Socialist German Workers Party.

Have you ever read Hitler's manifesto for the Nazi Party?

Yes, I have read some of Hitler's writings. Hitler was not at all a "lefty" and you are sadly wrong if you think so. Hitler believed the #1 evil in the world was Soviet-style socialism, partly due to his belief that it was a way to concentrate power in the hands of Jews, but primarily because it's political theories were diametrically opposed to Hitler's corporatist beliefs. Fascism, as practiced by Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc., was not a leftist philosophy. If anything, Communists and Socialists were their biggest enemy. Hitler's main beef with western-style capitalism is that he believed it encouraged race mixing and the mongrelization of pure European blood.

In modern political science, we look at the political compass in four dimensions. On complete state control of economic policy, Hitler and Stalin would have agreed 100%.

The only area where they differ is on social issues, where Hitler's talk of the master race was far right and where Stalin's talk of complete economic equality was far left.

Therefore, MB is right that Hitler was a socialist if you are only looking at economic policy.

[Montgomery Burns]

Hitler was a socialist. He despised capitalism and championed socialism. Nazi is short for National Socialist German Workers Party.

Have you ever read Hitler's manifesto for the Nazi Party?

Yes, I have read some of Hitler's writings. Hitler was not at all a "lefty" and you are sadly wrong if you think so. Hitler believed the #1 evil in the world was Soviet-style socialism, partly due to his belief that it was a way to concentrate power in the hands of Jews, but primarily because it's political theories were diametrically opposed to Hitler's corporatist beliefs. Fascism, as practiced by Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc., was not a leftist philosophy. If anything, Communists and Socialists were their biggest enemy. Hitler's main beef with western-style capitalism is that he believed it encouraged race mixing and the mongrelization of pure European blood.

Hitler signed a non-agression pact with the Soviet Union, and Hitler was a huge Karl Marx fan. National Socialism is to the right of communism, but still socialist. Hitler championed the rights of workers, regarded capitalist society as brutal and unjust, sought a 3rd way between communism and the free market. He disliked smoking, regarded it as a serious danger to public health, and took steps to combat it. He also enacted tough gun control laws, and he advocated euthanasia for the incurably ill.

If you had read the Nazi Party's manifesto, written by Hitler, you'd have seen this:

The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. The activities of the individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the frame of the community and be for the general good.

Therefore we demand:

That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in life and property, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as a crime against the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits whether in assets or material.

We demand the nationalization of businesses which have been organized into cartels.

We demand that all the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.

We demand extensive development of provision for old age.

We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle-class, the immediate communalization of department stores which will be rented cheaply to small businessmen, and that preference shall be given to small businessmen for provision of supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

We demand a land reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to confiscate from the owners without compensation any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

Hitler's National Socialists were obsessed with perfect health and perfect humans and soon started to kill the disadvantaged, just like the left supports unlimited abortion, and pulling the plug from "vegetables".

Hitler was also very anti-Jew, again a hallmark of today's left (and far right).

[Black Dog]

Hitler was a huge Karl Marx fan.

I knew you were an imbecile, but this, this is just...well...

Although Marx's own attitude toward Judaism has been characterized as ambivalent at best and hostile at worst, his books were burned in 1933 because of both his Jewish heritage and his socialist ideology. Marx was already named an ideological enemy in Hitler's early writings. Unsurprisingly, he received special mention in a "fire oath" as promulgator of class conflict. His books Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, blueprints for a Communist world order and among the most frequently translated German texts, were among those incinerated by the students.

[Drew Bedson]

Hitler was also very anti-Jew, again a hallmark of today's left (and far right).

Great thread Monty! I also believe Hitler was Left. Point being is that he wanted the state to be in control rather than the individual.

Underreported by the media? WTF is this woman smoking?

[Black Dog]

Great thread Monty! I also believe Hitler was Left. Point being is that he wanted the state to be in control rather than the individual.

I also beleive any one who think Hitler was left doesn't understand Hitler, the Left or flush toilets. Here's hint, kiddies: the first people Hitler rounded up were the Communists, Social Democrats, union leaders and other leftists. Why d'ya suppose that is? After all, if state economic control was the sole plank of the left, surely a socialist like Hitler could have found common ground with those (then mainstream) political parties instead of, you know, banning them and murdering their members. Fact his, Hitler's ultra-nationalist, racialist, authoritarian beliefs put him at odds with the western liberal tradition of individual and equality rights (which is why he was welcomed by the right-wing establishment).

[tml12]

Great thread Monty! I also believe Hitler was Left. Point being is that he wanted the state to be in control rather than the individual.

I also beleive any one who think Hitler was left doesn't understand Hitler, the Left or flush toilets. Here's hint, kiddies: the first people Hitler rounded up were the Communists, Social Democrats, union leaders and other leftists. Why d'ya suppose that is? After all, if state economic control was the sole plank of the left, surely a socialist like Hitler could have found common ground with those (then mainstream) political parties instead of, you know, banning them and murdering their members. Fact his, Hitler's ultra-nationalist, racialist, authoritarian beliefs put him at odds with the western liberal tradition of individual and equality rights (which is why he was welcomed by the right-wing establishment).

I thought I had explained it to you all but since you still feel the need to debate the point, why not look at this, as it substantiates my claim:

"In our home page we demolished the myth that authoritarianism is necessarily "right wing", with the examples of Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot and Stalin. Similarly Hitler, on an economic scale, was not an extreme right-winger. His economic policies were broadly Keynesian, and to the left of some of today's Labour parties. If you could get Hitler and Stalin to sit down together and avoid economics, the two diehard authoritarians would find plenty of common ground. "

(Source: www.politicalcompass.org)

[Drew Bedson]

You are looking at it from a black or white point of view though Black Dog. You might call Russia Communist during that era but, in reality, it was a dictatorship that was given the opportunity to become that through the vehicle of Socialism and, had no similarity to what Marx ever invisioned.

While many show the horrors of left wing politics to be Saddam and Stalin, in effect, they were not left other than the way they got to power. Then, they became your common everyday ruthless dictators. Hitler on the other hand, rounded up those individuals in order to secure his power as well. Then, implemented his social programs in his own way. Possibly that is another indication of him being left in that he didn't like competition.

[Montgomery Burns]

Great thread Monty! I also believe Hitler was Left. Point being is that he wanted the state to be in control rather than the individual.

I also beleive any one who think Hitler was left doesn't understand Hitler, the Left or flush toilets. Here's hint, kiddies: the first people Hitler rounded up were the Communists, Social Democrats, union leaders and other leftists. Why d'ya suppose that is? After all, if state economic control was the sole plank of the left, surely a socialist like Hitler could have found common ground with those (then mainstream) political parties instead of, you know, banning them and murdering their members. Fact his, Hitler's ultra-nationalist, racialist, authoritarian beliefs put him at odds with the western liberal tradition of individual and equality rights (which is why he was welcomed by the right-wing establishment).

Hitler was greatly influenced by Marx, and the first people Hitler rounded up were the bourgeois, the capitalists. Let's hear from the man himself:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"

Plus he was totalitarian, a hallmark of the left. Oneof the biggest lies of the 20th Century is that Hitler was a rightwinger. After the horrors of communism in the 20th Century, the leftwing-controlled academia decided to rewrite history to deflect the fact that leftism had created yet another monster.

[Shady]

After the horrors of communism in the 20th Century, the leftwing-controlled academia decided to rewrite history to deflect the fact that leftism had created yet another monster.

Great post Monty! I always love it when the left is introduced to facts. Also, about the leftwing-controlled academia rewriting history. Let's not forget about Stalin, anther leftwing monster who's been completely swept under the rug.

[Black Dog]

Hitler was greatly influenced by Marx, and the first people Hitler rounded up were the bourgeois, the capitalists.

Hitler was undoubtably familair with Marx, but he was far more influenced by Neitzche. It's hard to believe Hitler was "influenced" by a man he called an ideological enemy, a socialist Jew who represented the very forces Hitler believed was the root of all evil.

As for your second claim, it is clearly based on complete ignorance. I suggest you do your homework: first assignment "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". I should warn you, though: it's long and there are very few pictures.

You are looking at it from a black or white point of view though Black Dog. You might call Russia Communist during that era but, in reality, it was a dictatorship that was given the opportunity to become that through the vehicle of Socialism and, had no similarity to what Marx ever invisioned.

I think you're supporting my point here, Drew.

The problem is that people making the claim that Hitler was a leftist are basing their claim on a very specific model: a Marxian economic model, a model which has never actually been implemented. In reality, though, claiming that Hitler was a leftist because his economic policies were quasi-socialist (while ignoring how his political and social policies and overall ideaology were the very antithesis of liberalism) is as facile as claiming he was a liberal democrat because he acheived power through the democratic process.

Fascism was a synthesis of socialist economics, right-wing ultranationalism and militarism. I don't think you can seriously cram it into any of the boxes we're being presented with here.

While many show the horrors of left wing politics to be Saddam and Stalin, in effect, they were not left other than the way they got to power. Then, they became your common everyday ruthless dictators. Hitler on the other hand, rounded up those individuals in order to secure his power as well. Then, implemented his social programs in his own way. Possibly that is another indication of him being left in that he didn't like competition.[/

What is "leftist" about the way any of these people acheived power? Saddam and Stalin acheived power throigh good old fashioned brute force, Hitler through the democratic process.

[Drew Bedson]

Fascism was a synthesis of socialist economics, right-wing ultranationalism and militarism. I don't think you can seriously cram it into any of the boxes we're being presented with here.

Agreed. TGIF!

Niether can you discount the leftist applications either.

What is "leftist" about the way any of these people acheived power? Saddam and Stalin acheived power throigh good old fashioned brute force, Hitler through the democratic process.

All were heads of socialist parties when they took power.

[Black Dog]

Agreed. TGIF!

Niether can you discount the leftist applications either.

So can we agree, then, that absolute statements like "Hitler was a leftist" or "Hitler was a conservative" are inaccurate?

All were heads of socialist parties when they took power.

True, but I was wondering if there was anything particularily left-wing about acheiving power through brute force based on your statement that "Saddam and Stalin... were not left other than the way they got to power." In these cases, the fact that they were socialist doesn't really apply to the means by which power was acheived. Get me?

[Drew Bedson]

So can we agree, then, that absolute statements like "Hitler was a leftist" or "Hitler was a conservative" are inaccurate?

Oh yes. And, equally so are statements that he was not.

In these cases, the fact that they were socialist doesn't really apply to the means by which power was acheived. Get me?

Wrong. They all stated off as people who were a member and believer of whatever party they belond to. None of them had any idea they would one day lead that party, much less a country.

Once they were given the opportunity to utilize party power, they quickly became what they were. And, this is the inherrrnet weakness in the Socialist dream - all people are not good. Many people are corruptable.

[Black Dog]

Wrong. They all stated off as people who were a member and believer of whatever party they belond to. None of them had any idea they would one day lead that party, much less a country.

Once they were given the opportunity to utilize party power, they quickly became what they were. And, this is the inherrrnet weakness in the Socialist dream - all people are not good. Many people are corruptable.

I disagree. These men were thugs and would have been thugs regardless of their political affiliation. Socialism did not make, for example, Saddam, the monster he was.

[Drew Bedson]

I disagree. These men were thugs and would have been thugs regardless of their political affiliation. Socialism did not make, for example, Saddam, the monster he was.

Agreed. However, everybody needs a job. Heck, if he had any dance experience, he might have started a ballet school. Saddam thought that Socialism was a good thing to be into and had to have believed in it to some degree. So, what happened? Easy, Socialism concentrates power and relies on rhetoric and party loyalty creating the opportunity for the misuse of same.

It's an inherent weakness. One of them anyhow.