Klein Is Violating The Canada Health Act

[tml12]

I know we have discussed this before, but I am putting this in the Federal forums because I think it is time to have a new, NATIONAL, and rational debate on health care in Canada.

Canada's universal health care system is one of the myths of Canada. We do not have universal health care in this country. In Quebec, we have the most private clinics in Canada. PM Martin went to one. In the fall, Quebec Blue Cross sent a pamphlet to residents of Montreal in my area (and I assume other areas) advertising private health insurance BEFORE the Charest government legalized it. My doctor tells patients who want an MRI to either wait on the waiting list or get one off the record anonymously.

By giving patients the ability to pay for better care, if Premier Klein isn't violating the Canada Health Act, he is violating the socialist spirit of it. Although I think Klein's timing is bad for the minority CPC government, I back him 100%.

It's time to have a new, non-BS discussion on health care in Canada. It's time for a new Health Act now. Good for Alberta for paving the way...

[August1991]

By giving patients the ability to pay for better care, if Premier Klein isn't violating the Canada Health Act, he is violating the socialist spirit of it. Although I think Klein's timing is bad for the minority CPC government, I back him 100%.

I think we should have universal, obligatory State health insurance - organized at the provincial level. Private, for-profit clinics and hospitals should be able to provide health services. I think this is called a "unique-payer" system.

IOW, provincial ministries of health would become American HMOs, or medical insurance bureaucracies. They should not be involved in organizing the supply of medical services.

I think in BC, there is provincial auto insurance. In Quebec, there is the SAAQ which covers personal auto injury risks. Neither provincial agency is involved in car repairs. State health insurance should be similar.

If provincial governments concentrated on the insurance aspect of health care, they could start to think in terms of setting premiums, deductibles, rate lists, claims adjusting and so on.

----

If people want to have private health insurance in addition to the obligatory State health insurance scheme, then it should be their choice. (Does anyone have private car insurance in BC?)

[geoffrey]

August, I'm in agreement with you with the unique-payer system. While I'm probably one of the most pro-business zero interventionists on the forum, health care isn't merely economics. Health care in my opinion is a basic human right.

We can't allow people to have quicker access or exclusive access based on how much they earn. Not only is it immoral, but its unproductive for our working poor to be excluded, when their physical health is very valuable to the economy.

Each province needs to create a crown corporation, or similiar entity (I don't know exactly how this would work) to provide insurance to all citizens. This would cover all medically neccessary procedures and costs, such as basic health care, ambulance, ect..

Any profits would be returned to the subscribers directly annually. If you didn't pay for whatever reason (like those that don't pay in Alberta already), you still are covered due to moral concerns, but you don't get any of the profit. This way, citizens would be pissed if their cash back was lower one year due to mismanagement and raise a little hell. Some of these companies are posting $2b a year in profit, if that was returned in dividends to all payees in the Alberta system, they would be getting $700+ back a year!

Health care is a special case in the big scheme of things. You can't allow people to jump queues based upon their income. I could jump queues, I could probably afford to take out US insurance and travel there, money isn't really much of an issue in health costs for me. But standing next to the guy thats got the same problems or what not, can I say my life is worth more every single time? Hardly.

Private delivery makes sense. We should have many private clinics, all competing to see who can offer the cheapest, quickest, most high quality solutions. If the demand and money is there, the businesses will flock.

I love going to private clinics because they are much nicer than institutionalised crap that is normally utilized. I probably made this reference before, but there is a diagnostic clinic in Calgary that has plates of cookies for their patients. Definitely convienced me that if I had the choice of where to take myself for care, I'd do there due to their professionalism and customer service.

If professoinalism and customer service existed in 10% of our health providers, we'd be way better off.

This is the only situation where I disapprove of a competitive system in the insurance side as its dangerous!

[Biblio Bibuli]

Health care in my opinion is a basic human right.

This girl would be dead today if it weren'tt for Ralph Klein's Alberta who took her out of the BC grim reaper's hands.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...68-96170c74a47d

MANY Canadians from other provinces would also have been dead today had they listened to their Canadian doctor's instructions ... "GO HOME AND DIE!" ... instead of playing it smart by getting a second opinion in the U.S..

None from Ralph's province, as far as I know.

Michael Tanner from Washington's Cato Institute hit the nail on the head when he said, and I quote (paraphrase):

"Because many diseases are expensive to treat, it is not cost-effective under socialized medicine to treat them. This saves governments money but at a high human cost."

Did you know that in the US only about one in five men with prostate cancer will die from it? As opposed to over half of Brits and nearly half of Germans and Frenchmen who will. If I told you how Canuck men fare you'd probably throw up, so I won't.

VIVE RALPH KLEIN !!!

[gerryhatrick]

Yeah, anyone who would throw a book at a young girl just deserves all the support in the world!

[geoffrey]

Health care in my opinion is a basic human right.

This girl would be dead today if it weren'tt for Ralph Klein's Alberta who took her out of the BC grim reaper's hands.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...68-96170c74a47d

MANY Canadians from other provinces would also have been dead today had they listened to their Canadian doctor's instructions ... "GO HOME AND DIE!" ... instead of playing it smart by getting a second opinion in the U.S..

None from Ralph's province, as far as I know.

Michael Tanner from Washington's Cato Institute hit the nail on the head when he said, and I quote (paraphrase):

"Because many diseases are expensive to treat, it is not cost-effective under socialized medicine to treat them. This saves governments money but at a high human cost."

Did you know that in the US only about one in five men with prostate cancer will die from it? As opposed to over half of Brits and nearly half of Germans and Frenchmen who will. If I told you how Canuck men fare you'd probably throw up, so I won't.

VIVE RALPH KLEIN !!!

I've got no problem with having private companies making money from health care. I only have issue with people getting extra treatment based on their money. There is a little bit of a problem with that.

Health care isn't like a car, its not a status symbol. Or at least it shouldn't be.

With private delivery, we can have a high quality system in Canada so people won't need to go south with zero waiting times.

[BubberMiley]

One of the problems I've always had with our health care system is it's not really fair that wealthy people who are used to a high standard of living are given the same treatment as Wal-martians who probably find having a nurse looking after them the height of luxury. Going in the hospital is a very stressful time of life and there's no need to compound that stress by being placed in an alien situation where your money will do nothing for you.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Canadian doctor's instructions ... "GO HOME AND DIE!"

I only have issue with people getting extra treatment based on their money.

There are just too many cases in Canada where patients were cured in the U.S. after being cavalierly told by Canadian specialists to just basicaly FOAD! And ALL those lucky people had one thing in common ... they ALL had enough money saved up to pay for an American cure.

There are many ordinary people, especially older ones, who have savings or assets of hundreds of thousands, and they would GLADLY pay that money to postpone the inevitable. But if they trust their lying sonofabich doctor who tells tham that there is no cure just to save Medicare big bucks, they DO "go home and die".

So sad.

[geoffrey]

Canadian doctor's instructions ... "GO HOME AND DIE!"

I only have issue with people getting extra treatment based on their money.

There are just too many cases in Canada where patients were cured in the U.S. after being cavalierly told by Canadian specialists to just basicaly FOAD! And ALL those lucky people had one thing in common ... they ALL had enough money saved up to pay for an American cure.

There are many ordinary people, especially older ones, who have savings or assets of hundreds of thousands, and they would GLADLY pay that money to postpone the inevitable. But if they trust their lying sonofabich doctor who tells tham that there is no cure just to save Medicare big bucks, they DO "go home and die".

So sad.

Agreed. It's not like your money doesn't do anything for ya in Canada though. Private hospital rooms would be one.

[margrace]

I have told this story many times. As you all know we had a government in Ontario, "The Common Sense ' government. Harris promised that one of the things he would not touch was health care. Well the first thing he did was fire 20% or those "Bimbo" nurses, his description

My daughter was one of the Bimbo's. Her senority placed her still in the system but it put another nurse, who had two children in univercity, below the senority cut off. My daugter gave up her place to that woman.

She lost all her health benefits except for OHIP. But she never stopped working full time, in several hospitals. Remember Mr. Clement our glorious representative, our new health care man, who was so surprised in the SARS crisis when he discovered that many nurses were working part time in several hospitals.

Well the unbelievable happened. My daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia and given a year to live without a bone marrow transplant. She has an excellent doctor and he sent her to one of the best in Canada. A man who also in connected to the research in blood disorders in the US.

When they finally had a transplant donor we all were called into the Hospital to be told her chances 30% chance of recovery. We also were told that if she had to go to the US for this the admittance price to the American equivilant hospital would be $250,000 US up front, that was when our dollar was at .65 American.

My daughter was back at work in 6 months. If you came into our community you would find many people who know my daughter and who would tell you what a good nurse she is. She is still a Bimbo though, working many weeks three 12 hour shifts and then adding at least one more when situations become critical. She still does not have any proper health coverage and thanks to Trillium they picked up her over $1,000 a month med bills when she had to have them.

We have had people at our food bank who had to come back to that awful county Canada because they could not afford the health care in US and were bankrupted.

Think people, is this what you want?

[Hicksey]

I have told this story many times. As you all know we had a government in Ontario, "The Common Sense ' government. Harris promised that one of the things he would not touch was health care. Well the first thing he did was fire 20% or those "Bimbo" nurses, his description

My daughter was one of the Bimbo's. Her senority placed her still in the system but it put another nurse, who had two children in univercity, below the senority cut off. My daugter gave up her place to that woman.

She lost all her health benefits except for OHIP. But she never stopped working full time, in several hospitals. Remember Mr. Clement our glorious representative, our new health care man, who was so surprised in the SARS crisis when he discovered that many nurses were working part time in several hospitals.

Well the unbelievable happened. My daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia and given a year to live without a bone marrow transplant. She has an excellent doctor and he sent her to one of the best in Canada. A man who also in connected to the research in blood disorders in the US.

When they finally had a transplant donor we all were called into the Hospital to be told her chances 30% chance of recovery. We also were told that if she had to go to the US for this the admittance price to the American equivilant hospital would be $250,000 US up front, that was when our dollar was at .65 American.

My daughter was back at work in 6 months. If you came into our community you would find many people who know my daughter and who would tell you what a good nurse she is. She is still a Bimbo though, working many weeks three 12 hour shifts and then adding at least one more when situations become critical. She still does not have any proper health coverage and thanks to Trillium they picked up her over $1,000 a month med bills when she had to have them.

We have had people at our food bank who had to come back to that awful county Canada because they could not afford the health care in US and were bankrupted.

Think people, is this what you want?

I've seen just the opposite. My mother in law died prematurely because her family doctor kept jerking her around and kept trying test after test after test. It was only once I asked my boss at the time to pull some strings and refer her to a specialist in another hospital in another city to find out what was wrong with her did we get told that she had cancer and that it was no longer operable. In 12 months the family doctor was trying unsucessfully to find out what was wrong, he couldn't figure out what the hospital she was referred to found out in less than a week.

The malpractice suit is ongoing. I don't call that care. Certainly far less than what we pay for.

[Biblio Bibuli]

It's not like your money doesn't do anything for ya in Canada though. Private hospital rooms would be one.

Oh boy ... I can't wait !!!

I'm a very sick man, you know. Hypochondria is probably the ONLY disease that I haven't got.

[geoffrey]

What Klein is doing isn't going down the American path. I'm not all for it, but the American system is completely different.

Insurance in the US isn't that expensive. It comes down to priorities for those that don't get it. You know those lower taxes in the States, they're there for a reason. After all your secondary insurance in Canada, your paying way more. Something is wrong with that.

Thats why I think my idea of the Crown insurance corporation, with paying citizens as shareholders, is a great solution. Have all of our hospitals privatized, but payed for through our single-payer system.

If there are waiting lists, there is money not being made. Companies will build hospitals and clinics to fill the void our curent system leaves in order to get a share of the health industry pie.

No waiting lists, and equal access. Brilliant.

[Biblio Bibuli]

My mother in law died prematurely because her family doctor kept jerking her around ... It was only once I asked my boss at the time to pull some strings and refer her to a specialist in another hospital in another city to find out what was wrong with her did we get told that she had cancer and that it was no longer operable.

The malpractice suit is ongoing.

You must realize that the anti-cancer record of most government-run systems is pretty damn dismal.

As Michael Tanner says:

"Because cancer is a slow moving and expensive disease to treat, it is not cost-effective under socialized medicine to treat the disease too aggressively. This saves governments money but at a high human cost."

So I wouldn't blame her family doctor, he/she/it probably just followed government protocol.

My own doctor told me after I (being a smoking feen for 30 years) had a private CT scan done on my carcinogen infested lungs .......... "We are not supose to look at those results, BB, because many times there is a culprit found that should be investigated further by use of a PET scan or other expensive procedures. And Medicare frowns on that."

He said that ..... I swear!

Good luck with your malpractice suit, all the same!

[gerryhatrick]

What Klein is doing isn't going down the American path. I'm not all for it, but the American system is completely different.

Insurance in the US isn't that expensive. It comes down to priorities for those that don't get it. You know those lower taxes in the States, they're there for a reason.

You do realize that healthcare in American costs more per capita, don'tcha?

Have all of our hospitals privatized, but payed for through our single-payer system.

Keep talking. This is why conservatives will never be the natural ruling party in Canada.

[geoffrey]

What Klein is doing isn't going down the American path. I'm not all for it, but the American system is completely different.

Insurance in the US isn't that expensive. It comes down to priorities for those that don't get it. You know those lower taxes in the States, they're there for a reason.

You do realize that healthcare in American costs more per capita, don'tcha?

Yup. I'd say mostly due to insurance rates to cover malpractice suits. Do you know how much malpractice insurance is down there?

Have all of our hospitals privatized, but payed for through our single-payer system.

Keep talking. This is why conservatives will never be the natural ruling party in Canada.

I really am not bothered by people like you saying that. Blind acceptance of the status quo, fearing some attack of the ghost of Tommy Douglas, is by no means progressive.

I want the system to be better and more accesible. You want to preserve some societal norm forever, even when the world is a very different place.

Now who's the progressive?

[gerryhatrick]

What Klein is doing isn't going down the American path. I'm not all for it, but the American system is completely different.

Insurance in the US isn't that expensive. It comes down to priorities for those that don't get it. You know those lower taxes in the States, they're there for a reason.

You do realize that healthcare in American costs more per capita, don'tcha?

Yup. I'd say mostly due to insurance rates to cover malpractice suits. Do you know how much malpractice insurance is down there?

Why all the malpractice suits? Trying to maximize profit?

You forget all of the uninsured who are not refused treatment as well.

I really am not bothered by people like you saying that. Blind acceptance of the status quo, fearing some attack of the ghost of Tommy Douglas, is by no means progressive.

I want the system to be better and more accesible. You want to preserve some societal norm forever, even when the world is a very different place.

Now who's the progressive?

Well, it's a real relief you're not bothered by it.

Your assumption that I'm accepting something blindly is ignorant. I fully understand the forces at work. Sure, I want to see our system PROGRESS. It has areas that require improvement. Waiting times for elective surgury, for example.

Folks with REGRESSIVE attititudes like yours though see a problem and assume the whole philosophy of the system needs to be thrown out.

I do not want to inject the profit motive into health care. Profit is not bad, and competition can make things better, I know. Sometimes, though, profit can mean that service and quality suffers, especially in an oligopoly scenario.

You think I'm following the health act philosophy blindly, but most of it's critics seem to be following a market philosophy blindly.

Let me put it in plain terms for you: I do not want my local hospital to be the next Enron.

One of the accusations of "fear mongering" against the Conservative opponents (which consisted only of the Liberals in the last election) was the accusation that social services like medicare would be in danger. Harpers response to Klien - once it extends beyond just words - should be interesting.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Sure, I want to see our system PROGRESS. It has areas that require improvement.

Until our system does progress, Canadian doctors should be required to point out to their patients the superior treatments that are available elswhere.

Growing up in a Communist country during the sixties, the medical profession there was outdated compared to the West. But if you got diagnosed with a serious illness which the Communists decided (due to high costs) not to treat (as Canada is doing at present) a doctor there ALWAYS had at his fingertips the addresses of places (mainly in Switzerland) who could help.

All one needed to do was to scrape the money together, and the Communists had you in Bern or Zurich in a heartbeat.

If Canada is going to be a socialist regime (which it is, IMO) they have to at least add the humane touch to the mixture.

[cybercoma]

Canadian doctor's instructions ... "GO HOME AND DIE!"

I only have issue with people getting extra treatment based on their money.

There are just too many cases in Canada where patients were cured in the U.S. after being cavalierly told by Canadian specialists to just basicaly FOAD! And ALL those lucky people had one thing in common ... they ALL had enough money saved up to pay for an American cure.

There are many ordinary people, especially older ones, who have savings or assets of hundreds of thousands, and they would GLADLY pay that money to postpone the inevitable. But if they trust their lying sonofabich doctor who tells tham that there is no cure just to save Medicare big bucks, they DO "go home and die".

So sad.

actually, I can drive over the border to Detroit and be treated in an american hospital with my OHIP card anytie I'd like.

[Biblio Bibuli]

All one needed to do was to scrape the money together ...

How did they scrape all that money together?

Or is that how they earned the moniker ... "The Cancelled Czechs"?

[geoffrey]

All one needed to do was to scrape the money together ...

How did they scrape all that money together?

Or is that how they earned the moniker ... "The Cancelled Czechs"?

Did you just ask yourself a question? I think so...

[fixer1]

I for one am sure that we can not afford the system as it stands. The methods and structure of the healthcare system is such that all too much money goes to administration. During the last Election the Block made a ver important point that there are 4,000 more employees on the advertising and admin side of things then there were 10 years ago. And not one of these people do anything for frontline healthcare. Maybe if these people were let go and replaced by lest say 4,000 nurses, things may well improve. Also since the average Civil servant makes more then a nurse, we could probably hire even more. That fact alone would save many lives. The admin and paper work can take as much time as it needs to be done, as lives as not in the balance.

We need to have atleast 1000 new doctors per year to graduate and stay and practice in Canada, to really keep things going. That just is not being done. Many of the new doctors are specializing and few are becoming family doctors. This means that the doctor patient relationship is disappearing. That can also cost lives. Hospital administration should be cut back to minimum and nurses and doctors should be hired in place of them. There are many registered nurses that have long since given up the calling because they can make more as a private health consultant, or physical trainer etc. This is a weird world where those who help save lives get so little and those who really do nothing to save lives can make a better living.

Ralph Kliens methods while they break the healthcare act to some degree, seem to be the way things will have to eventually play out. I am 55 and I do have health problems. I probably would never be able to afford healthcare if it was like the USA system, and most healthcare providers for private insurance would not give me coverage. So, yes I probably am one of the users that make up for the more healthier ones. The cost of drugs is also very high and I am covered under a employers plan. But if things were different I could see me having to make choices of pills, food, or some of each. Do not get me wrong my family has a higher then average income. But that is the point, it takes just a small turn of fate and your life can be turned around. That is what I like about the public system. I also know that it can not go on for ever, so I try to look ahead and see what there will be for me later on. It is not the kind of thing you do half hearted.

I have seen first hand just what the hospitals get involved with, and they are buried by administration. That is wrong, sweet and simply wrong. You could take away most of that need by having smart health cards that would hold complete medical charts and prescriptions. That way every person would have this copy when ever they go to the hospital, and it would be updated when you leave. The same can be said for family doctors etc. With better tracking with out the admin costs. things would improve. But unfortunately in the end there are going to be those who will be able to pay money to get better service. It is going to happen sooner or later. The only other thing that might be is a community healthcare setup where the hospital is setup and supported by those in the community around it and the costs could be added to property tax bills etc. But then some communities would rise above others. No matter which way you cut it, paying money for care is coming.

[Spike22]

Flim Flam Klein did not go far enough he should have gotten rid of all public healthcare and privitized it. Get your own insurance, and select where you want to go for medical care instead of the government dictating to you how the service is going to be provided.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Did you just ask yourself a question?

Did I ask myself why I'm bothered so much by truths like ...... "Because cancer is a slow moving and expensive disease to treat, it is not cost-effective under socialized medicine to treat the disease too aggressively. This saves governments money but at a high human cost."

Yes I did, Geoffrey. Discused it all weekend with my good friend, Carl Jung, and I think he hit the nail on the head when he said:

"Aging people should know that their lives are not mounting and unfolding but that an inexorable inner process forces the contraction of life. For a young person it is almost a sin .... and certainly a danger .... to be too much occupied with himself, but for the aging person [like you, BB] it is a duty and a neccessity to give serious attention to himself."

So there!

[Black Dog]

Yup. I'd say mostly due to insurance rates to cover malpractice suits. Do you know how much malpractice insurance is down there?

I think it has something to do with the higher administrative costs (in 1999, health administration costs in the USA were $1,059 per capita, as compared with $304 per capita in Canada).