Israel turbocharges West Bank settlement expansion with largest land grab in decades

[carepov]

23 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The first step is to actually WANT a lasting peace and be willing to make concessions for it. 
 

Second the illegal settlements which Israel continues to build are a form of violence and the extremist settlers in those settlements who terrorize local Palestinians with the help if the IDF are also violence.  Bulldozing home, stealing drinking water, et etc are all forms of violence. Killing scores of civilians in reckless “revenge” airstrikes that have more to do with keeping a 10:1 kill score than protecting anyone is arguably also violence. BOTH SIDES need to do their part and the current regimes of Hamas and Netanyahu have no interest in doing so. 

You are right, for peace both sides need to make concessions and want peace.

However, for war, it only takes one side to want it.  If there was peace available from the Palestinians, the Israeli people would vote in a government that would make peace. 

[User]

On 7/9/2024 at 6:47 PM, BeaverFever said:

The first step is to actually WANT a lasting peace and be willing to make concessions for it. 

[carepov]

On 7/9/2024 at 6:37 PM, BeaverFever said:

I don’t think any of that suggests life in Gaza (or Jordan for that matter) is great or that Gazans should be satisfied woth their oppression.   Besides Jordan isn’t hostage to another country who controls its borders and economy from the outside, I don’t know of many people who would not want sovereignty and freedom simply because it wouldn’t improve their HDI. I also don’t think you can draw conclusions about the state of Gaza based on data about Palestine as a whole. 

HDI data is a good metric to judge societies and their values.  Also, by comparing HDIs of various countries in the Arab world one can quickly dismiss any claims that Israel is causing any material suffering.  In fact it is the opposite, Israel's incredible economic development has been a huge benefit to all people of Palestine.

You are right, it is not the whole story.  Basic personal and civic freedoms are important too.  Here again the scales favour Israel where women, gays and all minorities have equal rights.  The oppressors of ordinary Gazans is Hamas.

[BeaverFever]

On 7/10/2024 at 7:41 PM, carepov said:

You are right, for peace both sides need to make concessions and want peace.

However, for war, it only takes one side to want it.  If there was peace available from the Palestinians, the Israeli people would vote in a government that would make peace. 

That’s not true, the FACT is that the last time a peace was made, hardline right wing Israelis assassinated their Prime Minister and replaced his government with an aggressive anti-peace government that has been in near- constant control ever since. 
 

And let’s get back to the OP:  this illegal land grab in the west bank and settler terrorism has NOTHING to do with peace or security.  In fact, it worsens chances for both and is outright theft.  Unsurprisingly none of the Israel apologists in this thread will address it directly except to say they hope Israel ethnically cleanses the region of Palestinians because “they deserve it” which is an argument with no moral or legal grounding. 

[BeaverFever]

On 7/10/2024 at 8:58 PM, User said:

Inaccurate and dishonest depiction of those who seek a 2 state solution and end to Israel’s continued illegal settlements 

[BeaverFever]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:54 PM, carepov said:

HDI data is a good metric to judge societies and their values. 

Not when a hostile power controls its resources, trade or access to the outside world 

 

On 7/12/2024 at 2:54 PM, carepov said:

Also, by comparing HDIs of various countries in the Arab world one can quickly dismiss any claims that Israel is causing any material suffering. 

No, HDI is not a measurement of suffering 

On 7/12/2024 at 2:54 PM, carepov said:

In fact it is the opposite, Israel's incredible economic development has been a huge benefit to all people of Palestine.

Its also a fact that Blacks Jim Crow South or even for some in the time of slavery were economically better off than when they were Africa.  I don’t think thatbis the whole story 

 

On 7/12/2024 at 2:54 PM, carepov said:

You are right, it is not the whole story.  Basic personal and civic freedoms are important too.  Here again the scales favour Israel where women, gays and all minorities have equal rights.  The oppressors of ordinary Gazans is Hamas.

That has nothing to do with Israel’s illegal occupation of the OT, whose inhabitants get ZERO of those rights and freedoms and whose people have long suffered all sorts of arbitrary cruelty. Israel is ALSO an oppressor of Palestinians and Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza  Furthermore Hamas doesn’t continue the West Bank but Israel is a cruel oppressor there as well, attempting to weaken the PA which was a peace partner before Israel assassinated its own Prime Minister abandoned peace entirely 

[User]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Inaccurate and dishonest depiction of those who seek a 2 state solution and end to Israel’s continued illegal settlements 

You are pushing an inaccurate and dishonest position that two sides are seeking a 2 state solution. 

 

[User]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

That has nothing to do with Israel’s illegal occupation of the OT, whose inhabitants get ZERO of those rights and freedoms and whose people have long suffered all sorts of arbitrary cruelty. Israel is ALSO an oppressor of Palestinians and Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza  Furthermore Hamas doesn’t continue the West Bank but Israel is a cruel oppressor there as well, attempting to weaken the PA which was a peace partner before Israel assassinated its own Prime Minister abandoned peace entirely 

Like, how many lies can you stuff into one paragraph? 

Lets start with one of the more obvious ones: Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza. 

 

[carepov]

On 7/20/2024 at 5:59 AM, BeaverFever said:

That’s not true, the FACT is that the last time a peace was made, hardline right wing Israelis assassinated their Prime Minister and replaced his government with an aggressive anti-peace government that has been in near- constant control ever since. 
 

And let’s get back to the OP:  this illegal land grab in the west bank and settler terrorism has NOTHING to do with peace or security.  In fact, it worsens chances for both and is outright theft.  Unsurprisingly none of the Israel apologists in this thread will address it directly except to say they hope Israel ethnically cleanses the region of Palestinians because “they deserve it” which is an argument with no moral or legal grounding. 

Israel has free and fair elections.  If peace was available from the Palestinians, Israeli's would vote for a pro-peace government, like they have tried many times over the last 80 years.  Some of the most peace-loving Israelis were killed by Hamas on 10/7.

 

Israel is a country that includes Jews and Arabs.  A future Palestine should also include both Arabs and Jews, no?  Or should a future Palestine be ethnically cleansed like other Arab states?

[carepov]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:19 AM, BeaverFever said:

That has nothing to do with Israel’s illegal occupation of the OT, whose inhabitants get ZERO of those rights and freedoms and whose people have long suffered all sorts of arbitrary cruelty. Israel is ALSO an oppressor of Palestinians and Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza  Furthermore Hamas doesn’t continue the West Bank but Israel is a cruel oppressor there as well, attempting to weaken the PA which was a peace partner before Israel assassinated its own Prime Minister abandoned peace entirely 

Please elaborate on how "Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza"

Also, your narrative regarding the the peace process is wrong, Israel did not "abandoned peace entirely" :

1995: Assassination of Rabin

2000: Camp David Summit - arguably the closest that the two sides ever came to establishing peace