New Report on Canadian Incomes

[Michael Hardner]

Vanier Institute Report

"If you discount inflation," says a new report by the Vanier Institute for the Family, "the typical worker now earns only 10 cents more per hour than they did in 1991. In addition, the time worked per week declined by about an hour and a half over the period."

Why isn't this topic of more interest to Canadians than samesexmarriage or some of the other topics I see on Google News:

Wayne Gretzky

Minor political clashes

Racy photos at McGill University

The left (ie. the NDP) can't go near this, except in general terms to complain about 'working families'. The right's approach is to make a better environment in which business can invest. But as the article points out, we have been doing that for many a year now. The Liberal government tried a little from column A and a little from column B.

It seems to me that somebody is benefiting from the pro-business changes we made with Free Trade, from productivity improvements through technology, from lower taxes, but if not the middle class then who ?

[sage]

Michael, am I reading your post accurately? Is the Free Trade agreement being brought into this debate as the cause of this lack of progress?

Margins are being squeezed in every respect, from between corporations to labour itself. Why is this surprising?

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, am I reading your post accurately? Is the Free Trade agreement being brought into this debate as the cause of this lack of progress?

Margins are being squeezed in every respect, from between corporations to labour itself. Why is this surprising?

I think the thing is that certain policies are promoted as being good for for Canada, yet the benefits don't seem to have an effect on the average person.

I'm no expert on economics, but I understand the basics: that it's not a zero-sum game, for example. It seems to me that we've been constantly growing the economy, improving the business environment over the last 15 years or so.

Who is doing better as a result ? I ask you.

[geoffrey]

Vanier Institute Report

"If you discount inflation," says a new report by the Vanier Institute for the Family, "the typical worker now earns only 10 cents more per hour than they did in 1991. In addition, the time worked per week declined by about an hour and a half over the period."

Why isn't this topic of more interest to Canadians than samesexmarriage or some of the other topics I see on Google News:

Wayne Gretzky

Minor political clashes

Racy photos at McGill University

The left (ie. the NDP) can't go near this, except in general terms to complain about 'working families'. The right's approach is to make a better environment in which business can invest. But as the article points out, we have been doing that for many a year now. The Liberal government tried a little from column A and a little from column B.

It seems to me that somebody is benefiting from the pro-business changes we made with Free Trade, from productivity improvements through technology, from lower taxes, but if not the middle class then who ?

If you discount inflation?!?!?

Who is writing this crap? An increase of 10% ABOVE inflation is a huge increase in worker pay. Since 1991 that means wages have climbed around 30%!!

Disposable income has increased 10%. Learn what these stats actually mean. Unskilled labour should never climb much higher than inflation.

Your being spun in circles by these people.

[Michael Hardner]

If you discount inflation?!?!?

Who is writing this crap? An increase of 10% ABOVE inflation is a huge increase in worker pay. Since 1991 that means wages have climbed around 30%!!

Disposable income has increased 10%. Learn what these stats actually mean. Unskilled labour should never climb much higher than inflation.

Your being spun in circles by these people.

Read it again - it says 10 cents not ten per cent.

[geoffrey]

If you discount inflation?!?!?

Who is writing this crap? An increase of 10% ABOVE inflation is a huge increase in worker pay. Since 1991 that means wages have climbed around 30%!!

Disposable income has increased 10%. Learn what these stats actually mean. Unskilled labour should never climb much higher than inflation.

Your being spun in circles by these people.

Read it again - it says 10 cents not ten per cent.

Wow I'm blind. Either way. Thats the way it should be then. A little above inflation.

If you want more money, either a) take more risk and start a business or sacrifice a bit and go back to school.

Thats the way its always been. I don't know why everyone is so concerned about those that aren't even concerned for themselves. I find most people in those positions are completely content with where they are.

Of course everyone wants more money. But until you make yourself worth more, your not going to get it!

[geoffrey]

A note from the Vanier website.

They state that people's expeditures are moving form clothing and shelter to taxes and recreation.

If you can afford recreation, your are not poor. Again, I must say, why are these people so entitled to money for nothing?

[Michael Hardner]

Wow I'm blind. Either way. Thats the way it should be then. A little above inflation.

If you want more money, either a) take more risk and start a business or cool.gif sacrifice a bit and go back to school.

Thats the way its always been. I don't know why everyone is so concerned about those that aren't even concerned for themselves. I find most people in those positions are completely content with where they are.

Of course everyone wants more money. But until you make yourself worth more, your not going to get it!

A note from the Vanier website.

They state that people's expeditures are moving form clothing and shelter to taxes and recreation.

If you can afford recreation, your are not poor. Again, I must say, why are these people so entitled to money for nothing?

Nobody's talking about the poor, we're talking about average Canadians. In the past, economic growth has benefitted everyone: shorter work weeks, higher pay, and more leisure time. This trend seems to have stopped.

Why is that ? Any ideas ?

Certainly some of it happens because people just accept the fact that they can't do any better. So why was it that better conditions DID come to pass in the 20th century ?

[geoffrey]

Nobody's talking about the poor, we're talking about average Canadians. In the past, economic growth has benefitted everyone: shorter work weeks, higher pay, and more leisure time. This trend seems to have stopped.

Why is that ? Any ideas ?

Certainly some of it happens because people just accept the fact that they can't do any better. So why was it that better conditions DID come to pass in the 20th century ?

Well things are just getting better more slowly now. We can't keep getting better by leaps and bounds forever. We can't have everyone working less, making more and still come out with the same result.

Alot of the technological advances of the 90's allowed some of these to happen. We need more technological progress in order for us to work less and make more.

You can't just do that without something to increase efficiency. Worker productivity is also no longer growing by leaps and bounds.

[Michael Hardner]

Well things are just getting better more slowly now. We can't keep getting better by leaps and bounds forever. We can't have everyone working less, making more and still come out with the same result.

Actually, we can and we did.

Technological improvements between the turn of the century and the 1960s, say, resulted in higher real wages, better conditions, better standard of living and less hours.

We've arguably gone through a greater scale change with regards to technology yet there's no real improvement.

Alot of the technological advances of the 90's allowed some of these to happen. We need more technological progress in order for us to work less and make more.

Some of the studies I've seen show no real improvement since the 1970s.

You can't just do that without something to increase efficiency. Worker productivity is also no longer growing by leaps and bounds.

I'll bet it has since the 1970s.

EDITED TO ADD: I realize you're just asking questions here, same as I am. I've asked myself some of these over and over. Maybe somebody with some edumacation in the economical arts can help us here...

[geoffrey]

Well things are just getting better more slowly now. We can't keep getting better by leaps and bounds forever. We can't have everyone working less, making more and still come out with the same result.

Actually, we can and we did.

Technological improvements between the turn of the century and the 1960s, say, resulted in higher real wages, better conditions, better standard of living and less hours.

We've arguably gone through a greater scale change with regards to technology yet there's no real improvement.

Alot of the technological advances of the 90's allowed some of these to happen. We need more technological progress in order for us to work less and make more.

Some of the studies I've seen show no real improvement since the 1970s.

You can't just do that without something to increase efficiency. Worker productivity is also no longer growing by leaps and bounds.

I'll bet it has since the 1970s.

EDITED TO ADD: I realize you're just asking questions here, same as I am. I've asked myself some of these over and over. Maybe somebody with some edumacation in the economical arts can help us here...

I do have an education in these 'economical arts.' I'm not asking, I'm stating. Technology allowed us temporarily to work less and make more. But if technology doesn't keep expanding at the same rate from an industrial perspective, we'll slowly become less productive. Less productive workers give us less in wage increases above inflation.

Your missing something here Michael. It's not just technology in terms of plasma TV's and fridges that order your groceries. It's technology in terms of assembly line production and things like that that make real differences. We haven't seen a major technological improvement in commerce or industry since the internet became widely used. And thats the only one we've really got going in the last decades.

[Michael Hardner]

I do have an education in these 'economical arts.' I'm not asking, I'm stating. Technology allowed us temporarily to work less and make more. But if technology doesn't keep expanding at the same rate from an industrial perspective, we'll slowly become less productive. Less productive workers give us less in wage increases above inflation.

Your missing something here Michael. It's not just technology in terms of plasma TV's and fridges that order your groceries. It's technology in terms of assembly line production and things like that that make real differences. We haven't seen a major technological improvement in commerce or industry since the internet became widely used. And thats the only one we've really got going in the last decades.

I'm not missing that. Robotics and computer use should have increased productivity more, I would think.

Got some help from Google and found this paper from three Stats Canada economists.:

Isuma.net

They seem to agree with you - that the changes brought about by Free Trade and technology are slow and steady, and that more people are working, but people who work are working less on average.