pot and kettle

[newbie]

Emerson was the fist of the Blue Grits to defect; there will be more.

And I take it you support crossing the floor without running a byelection first. Whatever happened to that high and moral ground us lefties kept hearing about? Harper seems to have done a good job keeping his back benchers quiet, but good old Myron Thomspon and even Garth Turner oppose the Emerson conversion. Aaah, the smell of hypocrisy. You wear it well.

[geoffrey]

Emerson was the fist of the Blue Grits to defect; there will be more.

And I take it you support crossing the floor without running a byelection first. Whatever happened to that high and moral ground us lefties kept hearing about? Harper seems to have done a good job keeping his back benchers quiet, but good old Myron Thomspon and even Garth Turner oppose the Emerson conversion. Aaah, the smell of hypocrisy. You wear it well.

I have nothing against it. The people are completely unrespectable, but it should be that way. You elect a person in Canada, not a party. People just can't seem to understand this.

[Vancouver King]

Geoffrey:

"The people are completely unrespectable, but it should be that way."

What do you mean? Are you saying the decision of Vancouver Kingsway voters should not be respected?

The Harper/Emerson action has engendered feelings of "same old, same old", "business as usual" and "they are all the same". How does such generalized cynicism help CPC majority hopes?

Opposition to the move is not fading as fast as Tories would like- ie. web recall petitions, Emerson hiding from media - only settlement of softwood on terms favorable to Canada will prove this blatant opportunism was worth the bad press.

[geoffrey]

Geoffrey:

"The people are completely unrespectable, but it should be that way."

What do you mean? Are you saying the decision of Vancouver Kingsway voters should not be respected?

The Harper/Emerson action has engendered feelings of "same old, same old", "business as usual" and "they are all the same". How does such generalized cynicism help CPC majority hopes?

Opposition to the move is not fading as fast as Tories would like- ie. web recall petitions, Emerson hiding from media - only settlement of softwood on terms favorable to Canada will prove this blatant opportunism was worth the bad press.

Their decision was represented, they voted for David Emerson, you got David Emerson. That is the Canadian system.

I do agree that it looks bad.

Recall petitions don't work in Canada either, people can whine all they want, they elected the guy.

Softwood will be settled quite quickly with a competent Natural Resources minister. This has nothing to do with Emerson.

[Durgan]

Poor Haper couldn't find enough CPC members with enough brains to fill 30 cabinet seats. There must be a few pissed off homophobic members amongst the elected members. Dave Emerson will fit right in this party.

Lack of brains I find suprising because it is hard to imagine worse than Stockwell Day and he got a cabinet seat. Actually I am suprised he didn''t get the Justice Minister portfolio, since he has has much experience when in the cabinet in Alberta. I remember his ignorance of the law cost the Alberta taxpayers almost a million bucks.

Durgan.

[geoffrey]

Poor Haper couldn't find enough CPC members with enough brains to fill 30 cabinet seats. There must be a few pissed off homophobic members amongst the elected members. Dave Emerson will fit right in this party.

Lack of brains I find suprising because it is hard to imagine worse than Stockwell Day and he got a cabinet seat. Actually I am suprised he didn''t get the Justice Minister portfolio, since he has has much experience when in the cabinet in Alberta. I remember his ignorance of the law cost the Alberta taxpayers almost a million bucks.

Durgan.

Stockwell day was the Treasurer/Finance Minister in Alberta, your both ignorant and misinformed. I don't know why people like you both opening their mouths on this kind of issues when you have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion except misconceived insults.

There are plenty of brains in the CPC, just Vancouver didn't elect any of the bright candidates out there. Good thing Emerson stood up for Vancouver otherwise you'd be out in the cold.

If you think his constitutants would boot a minister in exchange for a liberal on the opposition benches, your either have a low opinion of the intelligence of his constitutants or your right and they actually have low intelligence.

[Vancouver King]

Their decision was represented, they voted for David Emerson, you got David Emerson. That is the Canadian system.

I do agree that it looks bad.

Recall petitions don't work in Canada either, people can whine all they want, they elected the guy.

Softwood will be settled quite quickly with a competent Natural Resources minister. This has nothing to do with Emerson.

======================================

Gosh, Geoffrey, I don't feel unrespectable.

When I voted, the party name was on the ballot right next to each candidate. Is it possible that as many people voted for the party name as the candidates name?

Of course recall petitions will not unseat Emerson. What they do serve is to keep the issue in the press and before the public - surely even a partisan like you will agree this is not good for the CPC.

So softwood has nothing to do with Emerson, eh? Check ctv.ca right now, Geoffrey, their #2 headline reads:

"Emerson denies stalling on softwood solution." I'm just guessing here, but this might indicate that Emerson does have something to do with softwood.

[geoffrey]

When I voted, the party name was on the ballot right next to each candidate. Is it possible that as many people voted for the party name as the candidates name?

Those people's ignorance of the system is no excuse. David Emerson, not the Liberal party, was elected.

Of course recall petitions will not unseat Emerson. What they do serve is to keep the issue in the press and before the public - surely even a partisan like you will agree this is not good for the CPC.

I'm far from a partisan, I was outspoken from the start of this that it was a bad move for Harper. However, from a realistic point of view, Emerson was elected fair and square and now better represents Vancouver because of his decision.

So softwood has nothing to do with Emerson, eh? Check ctv.ca right now, Geoffrey, their #2 headline reads:

"Emerson denies stalling on softwood solution." I'm just guessing here, but this might indicate that Emerson does have something to do with softwood.

My apologies, I didn't know he got the international trade portfolio on top of the Pacific gateway and olympics. I was wrong.

EDIT: I had forgotten actually...

[shoop]

The level of outrage over the move has got to be far more than Harper expected when he made the decision.

That's the downside of having supporters who actually have principles.

From here Harper has to stick with his decision and ride out the storm.

[Argus]

The level of outrage over the move has got to be far more than Harper expected when he made the decision.

That's the downside of having supporters who actually have principles.

From here Harper has to stick with his decision and ride out the storm.

I agree. He has no choice, and it would look terrible now if he reserves himself.

As to the fuss, this is mainly coming from the media, which had little problem with other floor-crossings, but is now, as it did when Mulroney was PM, "re-discovering" its enthusiasm for attacking government. It will do its best to hold Harper to an ethical standard far above that the Liberals exhibited (and which the media mostly ignored). Any hint of a patronage appointment, for example, will be jumped on with glee and produce huge headlines for days.

Of course, in some ways, the Conservatives are their own worst enemies. I'm sure there were Liberals unhappy about the likes of Brison and Stronach getting cabinet posts, but you didn't see them on TV. Garth (big mouth) Turner has managed to keep the fuss alive for another day or two, as the media morphs him into multiple people. The headlines and story voiceovers now are "Now even Conservatives are voicing their displeasure", or "And now even many Conservatives are..." Turner has become legions, apparently. One MP is all it takes for the media to spin out a story of party disunity. Of course, by doing so Turner has basically killed any chance he might ever have of getting into cabinet, in this or the to-be-hoped-for following majority.

[Riverwind]

It will do its best to hold Harper to an ethical standard far above that the Liberals exhibited (and which the media mostly ignored). Any hint of a patronage appointment, for example, will be jumped on with glee and produce huge headlines for days.

The conservatives were the ones who promised clear govt so it is reasonable to hold them to the standards they set for themselves.

The headlines and story voiceovers now are "Now even Conservatives are voicing their displeasure", or "And now even many Conservatives are..." Turner has become legions, apparently.

I am thinking this disunity in the CPC may actually benefit the party in the long run. Although one could accuse Harper of being a hypocrite for his appointments the grumblings from the back benches demonstrate that a large number of conservative MPs do stick to their principles even if it looks bad for the party.

At this point in time, I think Emerson could win his riding if he ran again. He is quite popular with the Chinese community in that riding and he can make a compelling case why he, as an individual, should be elected even if he does not belong to someone's first choice for a party. The fact that he had balls enough to face the electorate would also win him a lot of votes too.

Harper does not need to cave at all. He can continue to support Emerson who volunteers to run in a by election because he (Emerson) decided it was best.

[scribblet]

Poor Haper couldn't find enough CPC members with enough brains to fill 30 cabinet seats. There must be a few pissed off homophobic members amongst the elected members. Dave Emerson will fit right in this party.

Lack of brains I find suprising because it is hard to imagine worse than Stockwell Day and he got a cabinet seat. Actually I am suprised he didn''t get the Justice Minister portfolio, since he has has much experience when in the cabinet in Alberta. I remember his ignorance of the law cost the Alberta taxpayers almost a million bucks.

Durgan.

Is it necessary to throw around insults, can't you discuss intelligently without that kind of low discourse?

I didn't support Stockwell Day and I don't support his religious views, but he has been excellent in Foreign Affairs and as an MP. If you want to rehash old news about his lawsuit, you should read up on it first.

Stockwell might have made a mistake in writing the letter, qand paid for it, but he was on the money. That school trustee should never have been representing a pedophile, he could have passed the case to another lawyer, there are plenty of them.

School Trustees are supposed to be looking out for our kids, not defending pedophiles, even if it is their legal right to do so.

[uOttawaMan]

I'm just lol'ing away here.. so if Peter McKay switched to the Liberal party, would you use your own logic, saying that Peter McKay was elected, not the Conservative Party or would you be calling lack of ethics, etc etc.

The more I read these forums, the more I lol.

[newbie]

This from another thread:

Emerson says this the day after the election:

"I'm going to be Stephen Harper's worst enemy," he warned. "We're going to stir the pot and you better believe we are going to make a heck of a lot of noise."

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/2006/01/24/1408892.html

[Riverwind]

"I'm going to be Stephen Harper's worst enemy," he warned. "We're going to stir the pot and you better believe we are going to make a heck of a lot of noise."

Looks like Emerson has full-filled his promise admirably ;-)

[newbie]

When I voted, the party name was on the ballot right next to each candidate. Is it possible that as many people voted for the party name as the candidates name?

Those people's ignorance of the system is no excuse. David Emerson, not the Liberal party, was elected.

So if Emerson wanted to go in as a Block member, that would be okay too?

[shoop]

Go into cabinet as a bloc member?

Hmmm, how could a party that only runs candidates in 1/4 of the ridings in any election ever form government?

So if Emerson wanted to go in as a Block member, that would be okay too?

[tml12]

Go into cabinet as a bloc member?

Hmmm, how could a party that only runs candidates in 1/4 of the ridings in any election ever form government?

So if Emerson wanted to go in as a Block member, that would be okay too?

There have been instances of people in BC joining the Bloc, even though you *technically* have to be a resident of Quebec.

[uOttawaMan]

I'm just lol'ing away here.. so if Peter McKay switched to the Liberal party, would you use your own logic, saying that Peter McKay was elected, not the Conservative Party or would you be calling lack of ethics, etc etc.

The more I read these forums, the more I lol.

[geoffrey]

I'm just lol'ing away here.. so if Peter McKay switched to the Liberal party, would you use your own logic, saying that Peter McKay was elected, not the Conservative Party or would you be calling lack of ethics, etc etc.

The more I read these forums, the more I lol.

Whether he has a mandate and whether it is ethical are two different stories. Emerson is not ethical, but his riding elected him and not the Liberal Party.

If MacKay switched, for whatever reason you could conjure, I wouldn't ask him to face his constituants. Just like I said Belinda shouldn't. It's unethical to do a 180 on your opinions and makes you look full of shit. But our system works that way.

When I voted, the party name was on the ballot right next to each candidate. Is it possible that as many people voted for the party name as the candidates name?

Those people's ignorance of the system is no excuse. David Emerson, not the Liberal party, was elected.

So if Emerson wanted to go in as a Block member, that would be okay too?

Sure, although I'd like to stick to things that are possible and not just some random remote example that you come up with to try to discredit anything I say. Emerson joining the Bloc, have fun with that.

Your mistaken on how this works. Emerson has been elected and now has until parliment dissolves to do whatever he wants. He can still do wrong things, as he has, and be unethical in his work. When he goes to the polls next time, tell him then. Thats how our system works.

[sage]

An interesting sidebar to this Emerson thing. On Wednesday on CBC radio, they had an "activist" from Emerson's riding to give her opinion. Hearing the phrase activist, of course, conjures up images of someone just waiting to trounce the conservatives (which she ultimately did do).

However she said the Emerson was the hardest working representative that constituency ever had and she was willing to wait and see what he would do for the riding before criticizing him.

It was a surprisingly balanced opinion. Not that we should expect such things here.

[wellandboy]

Here's an interesting piece by journalist Anthony Westell on the Emerson defection. He raises some valid points about the independence of MP's. As we move forward on sorting out the so-called questionable ethics of this event, it's important to take a broad view of all the implications of floor crossing.

[Melanie_]

Emerson ran under the Liberal banner, and it was the Liberal party that paid his campaign expenses, etc. Switching so soon after the election makes one wonder how long he had been planning to defect, and if he ran under false pretenses. Running for one party while intending to represent another?

wellandboy, your link took me to the Microsoft home page!

[tml12]

Emerson ran under the Liberal banner, and it was the Liberal party that paid his campaign expenses, etc. Switching so soon after the election makes one wonder how long he had been planning to defect, and if he ran under false pretenses. Running for one party while intending to represent another?

wellandboy, your link took me to the Microsoft home page!

I get a blank screen when I click the link...

I'll give Harper the benefit of the doubt although I still find the move controversial and Emerson's "shock" at the electorate surprise a lot of bullshit.

[sage]

Switching so soon after the election makes one wonder how long he had been planning to defect, and if he ran under false pretenses. Running for one party while intending to represent another?

Melanie do you honestly think he entered the campaign planning to jump ship? Not very likely. I am sure he ran the campaign to sit as a Liberal. Then old opportunity and ambition came knocking. I don't believe we're talking about subterfuge here, though questionable ethics to be sure.