Top Job For Harper

[tml12]

I heard people on local radio this morning say that taxpayers must pay for prisoners in jail who wish to have sex changes. In addition, we have to pay for their vibrators and other sex toys that they want. I couldn't believe it but after doing research:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/feb/03020707.html

I realize this is old news but I guess I didn't read about it then. It wouldn't of mattered anyway, what with the Liberals in power.

Can anyone justify our tax dollars paying for this garbage?

[geoffrey]

I heard people on local radio this morning say that taxpayers must pay for prisoners in jail who wish to have sex changes. In addition, we have to pay for their vibrators and other sex toys that they want. I couldn't believe it but after doing research:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/feb/03020707.html

I realize this is old news but I guess I didn't read about it then. It wouldn't of mattered anyway, what with the Liberals in power.

Can anyone justify our tax dollars paying for this garbage?

I can't justify paying for their prision accomdations let alone all that crap. A couple months after their release we should send them a big invoice that they have to pay back. Or just hard labour while in prision to pay for it.

Whatever happened to chain gangs?

[cybercoma]

I'm all about chain gangs, but they reduce jobs for honest hard-working Canadians. For every ditch the prisoners dig or highway they clean, there could be someone who's unemployed making a buck for doing that.

[Wilber]

I'm all about chain gangs, but they reduce jobs for honest hard-working Canadians. For every ditch the prisoners dig or highway they clean, there could be someone who's unemployed making a buck for doing that.

So the taxpayer gets to pay for the prisoner to do nothing at the same time as they get to pay someone else to dig the ditch.

[tml12]

I'm all about chain gangs, but they reduce jobs for honest hard-working Canadians. For every ditch the prisoners dig or highway they clean, there could be someone who's unemployed making a buck for doing that.

So the taxpayer gets to pay for the prisoner to do nothing at the same time as they get to pay someone else to dig the ditch.

We don't pay them to do nothing, we pay them to [see first post and use your imagination].

[Army Guy]

Perhaps they should expand on programs that Corrections Canada already has up and running. Such as CorCan (corrections Canada)already produces Office furniture for sale to anyone mostly goverment depts, I'm not sure were the revenue goes, I'm sure the federal goverment gets it's slice.

It would teach them a trade, or skill, make good use of thier time spent on the taxpayers dollar.

[apollo19]

I recall hearing about how prisoners are entitled to access the internet, watch pornography on TV, and basically have a jolly old time at the taxpayer's expense. It is hard to believe how the Canadian prison system has become a joke where prisoners have it easier than regular people who follow the rules. I hope Harper fixes this problem quickly, because if prison isn't a punishment for people, then what deterrent is there for people not to perform a crime?

[tml12]

I recall hearing about how prisoners are entitled to access the internet, watch pornography on TV, and basically have a jolly old time at the taxpayer's expense. It is hard to believe how the Canadian prison system has become a joke where prisoners have it easier than regular people who follow the rules. I hope Harper fixes this problem quickly, because if prison isn't a punishment for people, then what deterrent is there for people not to perform a crime?

I don't know if the ROC heard about Karla when she was in jail but she had an awesome time. What, the relationship with French, the sex parties, pot smoking... :angry:

Now she wants a passport...

Canada is heading so far left I am unsure if Harper can reform this country with the slim majority the GTA took away from him...

[geoffrey]

I recall hearing about how prisoners are entitled to access the internet, watch pornography on TV, and basically have a jolly old time at the taxpayer's expense. It is hard to believe how the Canadian prison system has become a joke where prisoners have it easier than regular people who follow the rules. I hope Harper fixes this problem quickly, because if prison isn't a punishment for people, then what deterrent is there for people not to perform a crime?

I don't know if the ROC heard about Karla when she was in jail but she had an awesome time. What, the relationship with French, the sex parties, pot smoking... :angry:

Now she wants a passport...

Canada is heading so far left I am unsure if Harper can reform this country with the slim majority the GTA took away from him...

Hey your Montreal didn't help, get out there and doorknock!

Very true, whatever happened to hard time?

Theres some minimum security place in BC that has a golf course. I've been tempted to commit crimes so I can live in my little chateau on the golf course, have great meals prepared for me, and go golfing all day.

Really, there is alot of incentive in this country to commit crimes.

[tml12]

Geoffrey,

"Hey your Montreal didn't help, get out there and doorknock!

Very true, whatever happened to hard time?

Theres some minimum security place in BC that has a golf course. I've been tempted to commit crimes so I can live in my little chateau on the golf course, have great meals prepared for me, and go golfing all day.

Really, there is alot of incentive in this country to commit crimes."

Especially if you are on welfare. Can you imagine? You can rob a bank and kill the guard and go to jail and have all your porn and sex toys paid for. And even play golf... :angry:

Sadly for you, in this country that crime would only probably get you six weeks in jail...

I say bring back capital punishment...a majority of Canadians, so says the left-wing Globe and Mail, support it...

[FTA Lawyer]

Geoffrey,

"Hey your Montreal didn't help, get out there and doorknock!

Very true, whatever happened to hard time?

Theres some minimum security place in BC that has a golf course. I've been tempted to commit crimes so I can live in my little chateau on the golf course, have great meals prepared for me, and go golfing all day.

Really, there is alot of incentive in this country to commit crimes."

Especially if you are on welfare. Can you imagine? You can rob a bank and kill the guard and go to jail and have all your porn and sex toys paid for. And even play golf... :angry:

Sadly for you, in this country that crime would only probably get you six weeks in jail...

I say bring back capital punishment...a majority of Canadians, so says the left-wing Globe and Mail, support it...

Okay...

I'll accept that some of the privileges that seem to be afforded to inmates in Canada are unwarranted, but show me a person who opines about how good prison is and how much incentive there is to go there and I'll show you a person who has never set foot inside the perimeter fence of a Federal Penetentiary.

If prison was as good as you say it is, then no one would be on welfare because they'd just keep committing crimes en masse. The vast majority of even the poorest of people know it's far better to go to a shelter or soup kitchen than to be kept in a 6 x 8 cell with one or more "roommates" of questionable character, with testosterone-filled guards looking to kick your ass whenever they can catch you ignoring their often arbitrarily enforced "rules" or looking to degrade you with a random strip or even body-cavity search, where assault and rape are more common than you'd care to believe, etc. etc.

In my tenure as a criminal lawyer, I've never met an inmate who didn't want one thing above all others...to get out of jail. And, I've never had a client whose first worry and ususally first question to me wasn't, "am I going to go to jail for this?"

For every one or two extraordinary instances that can be splashed in the media to make prison look like a spa, there are hundreds and hundreds of instances that demonstrate just how unappealing life behind bars really is...even in Canada.

FTA

[Boru]

Geoffrey,

"Hey your Montreal didn't help, get out there and doorknock!

Very true, whatever happened to hard time?

Theres some minimum security place in BC that has a golf course. I've been tempted to commit crimes so I can live in my little chateau on the golf course, have great meals prepared for me, and go golfing all day.

Really, there is alot of incentive in this country to commit crimes."

Especially if you are on welfare. Can you imagine? You can rob a bank and kill the guard and go to jail and have all your porn and sex toys paid for. And even play golf... :angry:

Sadly for you, in this country that crime would only probably get you six weeks in jail...

I say bring back capital punishment...a majority of Canadians, so says the left-wing Globe and Mail, support it...

Is that so? Show me an article. I don't believe you.

I believe that to be nonsense. After spending the good part of a term in criminology discussing and arguing the merits of the death penalty with two hundred equally interested criminology students, these points became clear:

1) The Canadian public does not support it, and every year support dwindes. Polls outside of select regions consistantly have shown these same results for over two decades.

2) The death penalty has a yet to be proven as a deterrant. Although there is no concensus upon reasoning for it, the opposite has been shown to be true.

[Drea]

Geoffrey,

"Hey your Montreal didn't help, get out there and doorknock!

Very true, whatever happened to hard time?

Theres some minimum security place in BC that has a golf course. I've been tempted to commit crimes so I can live in my little chateau on the golf course, have great meals prepared for me, and go golfing all day.

Really, there is alot of incentive in this country to commit crimes."

Especially if you are on welfare. Can you imagine? You can rob a bank and kill the guard and go to jail and have all your porn and sex toys paid for. And even play golf... :angry:

Sadly for you, in this country that crime would only probably get you six weeks in jail...

I say bring back capital punishment...a majority of Canadians, so says the left-wing Globe and Mail, support it...

Okay...

I'll accept that some of the privileges that seem to be afforded to inmates in Canada are unwarranted, but show me a person who opines about how good prison is and how much incentive there is to go there and I'll show you a person who has never set foot inside the perimeter fence of a Federal Penetentiary.

If prison was as good as you say it is, then no one would be on welfare because they'd just keep committing crimes en masse. The vast majority of even the poorest of people know it's far better to go to a shelter or soup kitchen than to be kept in a 6 x 8 cell with one or more "roommates" of questionable character, with testosterone-filled guards looking to kick your ass whenever they can catch you ignoring their often arbitrarily enforced "rules" or looking to degrade you with a random strip or even body-cavity search, where assault and rape are more common than you'd care to believe, etc. etc.

In my tenure as a criminal lawyer, I've never met an inmate who didn't want one thing above all others...to get out of jail. And, I've never had a client whose first worry and ususally first question to me wasn't, "am I going to go to jail for this?"

For every one or two extraordinary instances that can be splashed in the media to make prison look like a spa, there are hundreds and hundreds of instances that demonstrate just how unappealing life behind bars really is...even in Canada.

FTA

You are so right (correct LOL).

Years ago I dated a fellow who spent 4 1/2 months in a provincial prison. Scary freakin' place.

There is ONE tv room for all the inmates with a 20" 1988 model Hitachi or something like that. If an inmate's family provides him with a small tv set, he can set it up in his cell but there's no cable hookup in there. All they get is the CBC -- LOL, at least they're informed, eh.

No computers -- at least none that I saw.

No phones -- only one pay phone for all the inmates.

No, they don't buy them dildo's, geeeez. My b/friend was always "watching his backside" so-to-speak.

It's not all rosy. Only those who've never been inside (even as a visitor) think this.

[tml12]

Almost 70% of Canadians support it:

http://www.cpsa-acsp.ca/paper-2003/tatalovich.pdf

That is an academic article link.

[tml12]

FTA Lawyer,

You're right...I was not trying to say that prison is fun, only that I don't think they should have all those rights...I thought going to prison and committing crimes meant that rights were taken away from you...

[Army Guy]

Drea, FTA Lawyer:

What is it your trying to say, we should feel sorry for these convicts, that there being mistreated, or prison is to tough on them. Or just that prison is not a fun place to be. But it's not meant to be is it.

If half of these stories are true, then there has to be a problem within our justice system. why is it that prisoners(convicts) are being treated better than alot of law bidding Canadain citizens. How many of you's out there would like a day at the spa or manicures paid by the government.

You've said that most of your clients ask you "I'm i going to prison", but in your judgement how many truely did "NOT" know that thier crime could send them to prison, before they committed it. And yet they had the mental compacity to weigh the risks and took that chance (i may or may not be caught). Does that prove that the threat of going to prison works..And then they have the gull to ask i'm i going to prison, "YUP" meet your new roommate and "Bubba meet your new toy".

I think not, i think we need tougher laws, tougher sentences, Convicts should leave all thier rights and privilages at the front door. And next time perhaps when they are weighing the risks, the light bulb will come on and they'll decide it's not worth it.

Lets stop, promoting just how rough these convicts have it, when many other law bidding citizens have it much harder.

My Webpage

My Webpage

[Spike22]

When I went to boot camp and other training in the military way back when that was hard damn time. Sounds like in jail you have time to meditate, learn a trade, go to school, get high etc etc. Sounds like a glamourous life for these misfits of society.

As for chain gangs (that now refers to S&M) and sex toys. I guess they will get more work now that jails have banned indoor smoking. Butt out in jail now actually means putting out your butt. Well this is just great, then when they get out and no longer have a virgin rear end they can legally get hitched and live happily ever after (except that their toys are no longer supplied)

[Argus]

I'll accept that some of the privileges that seem to be afforded to inmates in Canada are unwarranted, but show me a person who opines about how good prison is and how much incentive there is to go there and I'll show you a person who has never set foot inside the perimeter fence of a Federal Penetentiary.

This isn't really about privilages like cable tv. It's about the perception that prison life does not punish those who are most in need of punishment.

How different, really, is the life of a street gang member inside vs outside? they hang around with their violent homies, beating, intimidating and robbing others. They watch TV, do drugs, and screw their "HO's". If they get arrested, they go inside, meet up with more of their homies, beat, rob and intimidate others, hang around doing drugs, smoking, playing cards, watching TV, and have their "HO's" come for conjugal visits.

Tragic.

On top of that you have a parole system which treats parole as a right, rather than a privilege. Most people are out on day parole after 1/6th of a not very severe sentence to begin with.

So when you add on libraries, free education, gyms, satellite TV, computers and internet porn, etc. etc., it's kind of hard to see how these guys are suffering for their violent crimes.

Hard labour, for ten hours a day, sounds much better to me.

[FTA Lawyer]

Drea, FTA Lawyer:

What is it your trying to say, we should feel sorry for these convicts, that there being mistreated, or prison is to tough on them. Or just that prison is not a fun place to be. But it's not meant to be is it.

If half of these stories are true, then there has to be a problem within our justice system. why is it that prisoners(convicts) are being treated better than alot of law bidding Canadain citizens. How many of you's out there would like a day at the spa or manicures paid by the government.

You've said that most of your clients ask you "I'm i going to prison", but in your judgement how many truely did "NOT" know that thier crime could send them to prison, before they committed it. And yet they had the mental compacity to weigh the risks and took that chance (i may or may not be caught). Does that prove that the threat of going to prison works..And then they have the gull to ask i'm i going to prison, "YUP" meet your new roommate and "Bubba meet your new toy".

I think not, i think we need tougher laws, tougher sentences, Convicts should leave all thier rights and privilages at the front door. And next time perhaps when they are weighing the risks, the light bulb will come on and they'll decide it's not worth it.

Lets stop, promoting just how rough these convicts have it, when many other law bidding citizens have it much harder.

My Webpage

My Webpage

I'm not saying feel sorry for prisoners...I'm quite content with the notion of doing the time if you do the crime. What I'm saying is that many people have a totally screwed-up media-driven view of what it is like to be in prison.

You have no idea what it does to a man to be held against his will and to have his every movement dictated to him. Even if you were in a nice hotel room with cable t.v. you'd be surprised how bad that can be when some uneducated thug gets to randomly come in and ransack the place, strip-search you forcibly, tell you where to go, when to do it, how to do it, with whom you can do it etc. Add to this the constant watching over your shoulder for other inmates and all the Seinfeld in the world won't make you like prison.

Bottom line is, having cable and a dildo hardly equates to being "treated better" than alot of law-abiding citizens...its simply not true. Prison f-ing sucks (as it should) despite what those of you who have never set foot inside one might think.

And by the way, you're really out of touch if you think more than one in 10,000 criminals ever sits down and weighs the consequences of his actions before committing a crime. That's why the SCC in Proulx took note of the research that tells us prison, no matter how "tough", really doesn't work as a method of deterrence for future situations.

FTA

[geoffrey]

Well FTA, I don't know what type of law your involved in, but out of curiosity, have you ever been to a prision? (I don't mean this condescendingly, I just haven't and want a first hand opinion).

I agree with most prisons that its not a great experience I'm sure. Knowing that, there is also prisions like those minimum security ones in BC that are kind of a joke.

I also see the point of gives these inmates something to do, in order to make things more secure for the guards, which is priority one in my books.

Being held against your will (arguably, you did choose to commit a crime with a prision term as punishment) is quite the punishment I agree. But your life behind bars shouldn't be more comfortable than your life outside, otherwise people will just keep coming on back.

[FTA Lawyer]

Well FTA, I don't know what type of law your involved in, but out of curiosity, have you ever been to a prision? (I don't mean this condescendingly, I just haven't and want a first hand opinion).

I agree with most prisons that its not a great experience I'm sure. Knowing that, there is also prisions like those minimum security ones in BC that are kind of a joke.

I also see the point of gives these inmates something to do, in order to make things more secure for the guards, which is priority one in my books.

Being held against your will (arguably, you did choose to commit a crime with a prision term as punishment) is quite the punishment I agree. But your life behind bars shouldn't be more comfortable than your life outside, otherwise people will just keep coming on back.

I'm in prison regularly as presently 95% of my practice is crminal and appellate law. Recently, I have been involved with a high volume of cases where I act for inmates facing internal disciplinary hearings for breaking rules while in jail. I also have a current case pending for a Queen's Bench judicial review of the treatment of an inmate at the Calgary Correctional Centre.

I consider my opinion to be a relatively well-informed one.

I repeat, I'm no lefty when it comes to crime and punishment (in spite of being a criminal defence lawyer), and I'm not losing any sleep over the fact that conditions are harsh for most inmates. All I am saying is that conditions are harsh for most inmates and the notion that prisoners have a more comfortable life than people on the outside is largely fictitious.

Go to any large urban centre and look at the number of homeless people living on the streets or in shelters...the numbers are often staggering. Many of these same people have seen the inside of a jail or two in their day, and if it was as good as so many Canadians seem to think (becuase they don't use chain gangs anymore) then all of those people would be on the inside...not barely surviving on the curb-side.

Freedom is totally taken for granted by those who have it and disparagingly unattainable for those who have lost it by committing a crime...and the lack of the "luxuries" of prison is of no consequence to a street-dweller because he has the far more valuable asset of being free.

Sorry if I got a bit tangental there, but I'm just trying to give perspective to those who assume that a few privileges automatically mean that prison life is better than the ones the rest of us lead.

FTA

[geoffrey]

Well said FTA, always good to get some informed opinion.

You definitely have a point, none of us that haven't been to jail know what its like to not have freedom.

[tml12]

Well said FTA, always good to get some informed opinion.

You definitely have a point, none of us that haven't been to jail know what its like to not have freedom.

Well said...good posts!!!

[Boru]

Well FTA, I don't know what type of law your involved in, but out of curiosity, have you ever been to a prision? (I don't mean this condescendingly, I just haven't and want a first hand opinion).

I agree with most prisons that its not a great experience I'm sure. Knowing that, there is also prisions like those minimum security ones in BC that are kind of a joke.

I also see the point of gives these inmates something to do, in order to make things more secure for the guards, which is priority one in my books.

Being held against your will (arguably, you did choose to commit a crime with a prision term as punishment) is quite the punishment I agree. But your life behind bars shouldn't be more comfortable than your life outside, otherwise people will just keep coming on back.

I'm in prison regularly as presently 95% of my practice is crminal and appellate law. Recently, I have been involved with a high volume of cases where I act for inmates facing internal disciplinary hearings for breaking rules while in jail. I also have a current case pending for a Queen's Bench judicial review of the treatment of an inmate at the Calgary Correctional Centre.

I consider my opinion to be a relatively well-informed one.

I repeat, I'm no lefty when it comes to crime and punishment (in spite of being a criminal defence lawyer), and I'm not losing any sleep over the fact that conditions are harsh for most inmates. All I am saying is that conditions are harsh for most inmates and the notion that prisoners have a more comfortable life than people on the outside is largely fictitious.

Go to any large urban centre and look at the number of homeless people living on the streets or in shelters...the numbers are often staggering. Many of these same people have seen the inside of a jail or two in their day, and if it was as good as so many Canadians seem to think (becuase they don't use chain gangs anymore) then all of those people would be on the inside...not barely surviving on the curb-side.

Freedom is totally taken for granted by those who have it and disparagingly unattainable for those who have lost it by committing a crime...and the lack of the "luxuries" of prison is of no consequence to a street-dweller because he has the far more valuable asset of being free.

Sorry if I got a bit tangental there, but I'm just trying to give perspective to those who assume that a few privileges automatically mean that prison life is better than the ones the rest of us lead.

FTA

This is true, but a fact largely ignored by the right wing press. Constant nonsense about the regular inmate having access to golf courses and sex toys...

The sort that gets locked up for tax evasion and white collar crime definately tend to sing a different tune after they spend their 2 weeks in jail for defrauding the public of millions of dollars.

[Army Guy]

FTA Lawyer:

I'm not saying feel sorry for prisoners...I'm quite content with the notion of doing the time if you do the crime. What I'm saying is that many people have a totally screwed-up media-driven view of what it is like to be in prison.

What i was trying to say here is that if ONE prisoner is being treated the way our media has pionted out then that is "one" to many, are you denying that thier are no Prisoners in Canada being treated this way.

You have no idea what it does to a man to be held against his will and to have his every movement dictated to him. Even if you were in a nice hotel room with cable t.v. you'd be surprised how bad that can be when some uneducated thug gets to randomly come in and ransack the place, strip-search you forcibly, tell you where to go, when to do it, how to do it, with whom you can do it etc. Add to this the constant watching over your shoulder for other inmates and all the Seinfeld in the world won't make you like prison

If your trying to provoke feelings of sympathy for these convicts, your talking to the wrong guy. Although i've never been to prison ( except the kingston riots) , i do know what it is like to have your freedom severly curtailed.

I served in Kubul Afgan in the early stages when the camp was just being built. we slept in Recce tents (small pup tents 2 to 3 men per, smaller than your 6x8 cell), with an air matress on the ground, No showers for days sometimes a week, in temps over 50, The men and women that serve our country got along just fine, there were no stabbings, beatings or bending over your roommate. We acted like civilized people in conditions that are much worst than any maxium security prison here in Canada.

Your protrayal of the prison gaurds as uneducated thugs is a little much. Perhaps a couple days in thier shoes would change your tune. Random inspections are done for a reason, to ensure convicts obey the rules that have been set out by the courts. IE no drugs, wpns, etc. If the convicts were as sweet as you prtray them then why would there be a need for searchs.

As for strip searchs there must be a cause to order a search. And if there is no cause then you as a lawyer should do something about it.

Bottom line is, having cable and a dildo hardly equates to being "treated better" than alot of law-abiding citizens...its simply not true. Prison f-ing sucks (as it should) despite what those of you who have never set foot inside one might think.

NO the bottom line is this, if our tax dollars are being spent on luxery items such as cable,dildos, etc, those tax dollars would be bettrer spent on additional homeless shelters, tax breaks for low income earners, basically anything that would improve the lives of those that have chosen to obey the law.

And by the way, you're really out of touch if you think more than one in 10,000 criminals ever sits down and weighs the consequences of his actions before committing a crime. That's why the SCC in Proulx took note of the research that tells us prison, no matter how "tough", really doesn't work as a method of deterrence for future situations.

Bullshit, my 3 year son knows what is right and wrong, he knows exactly what he can do or what he can not. and he knows the punishment. So you are telling me that an adult does not already know the consequences, that they don't know right from wrong.

Again bullshit, tell the SCC to do thier research in a military prison, ask them how many reoffenders they get. not to many. Ask anyone that has done time in a military prison would they do the crime again. These soldiers that come back to thier units from prison are model soldiers. Why is that.

To sum-up i understand your piont, prison is not a fun place to be. But those convicts have chosen thier plight in life ,well most have, and now there are paying the consquences. what concerns me is that there are Canadians here in Canada struggling to make ends meet ,to feed thier families,put a roof over thier heads etc and doing all this and still obeying the law.

And these convicts have a roof over thier heads are feed 3 square meals a day, have access to books, tv, schooling, medical and mental care. all this on our tax dollar.