Issues with 9-11

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear GostHacked,

Here are a couple of links regarding the collapse of the twin towers...

http://www.implosionworld.com/wtc.htm

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=4&c=y

There are, of course others, but anything with the word 'rense' in it, I automatically disregard.

However, I did see something a while ago regarding 'building 7' of the WTC complex, and that it's collapse was actually suspicious.

http://www.wtc7.net/articles/stevenjones_b7.html

However, no doubt in my mind that 19 terrorists flew jumbos into buildings that were 'symbolic of America's power' (according to Usama) and got the possibly unexpected bonus of collapse.

[hellnback]

[quote name='moderateamericain'

Yes lets apply Occums to this line of thought.

The US administration secrtley conducted an operation to stir up the American population into letting GWB launch and unfounded war on iraq based on false information, which by the way GERMANY, RUSSIAN, FRANCE, and England intellgience services believe to be true, Trained 12 islamic fundamentalist to fly planes, which by the way they started to learn to do in the Clinton administration, But that doesnt matter the election was bought by bigbusiness which paid WASP americans to vote republican and paid blacks and other ethnic minorites to not show up and vote for GWB twice. But why stop there, The CIA new about the planned attacks and did nothing about it, why? because George Bush told em hed like to see 500 people dead and over 1000 serverly injured. All because Daddy bush didnt finish his war. Does that sound about right?

Or, the terrorist caught us with are pants down, hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 into the WTC, flew one into the pentagon, and lost the 4th over pennsylvania when the passengers hijacked the hijackers.

"Occums"? .... Heck, I prefer verifiable facts.

There is a long history in The U.S. of covert operations for political and economic reasons, many of which have been made public by utilization of provisions allowing release of previously classified documents.

That's the good news! The bad news is that many refer to clandestine operations designed to attack

their own country and their own citizens as an excuse to invade whichever country they determined

was the current 'enemy'. I won't go as far back as "the Maine" incident, will start in the twentieth century.

Have you ever heard of Pretext S? How about 'operation mongoose'? There are countless more, and many

as yet to be "unclassified" so I'll stick with those I just mentioned by name and the ramifications should be obvious.

An official paper was presented (and duly processed} suggesting attacks on Guantanamo and/or Miami

as the excuse to invade Cuba. Most interesting was the idea of blaming the attacks on Cuban "terrorists".

"Bay of Pigs" was a hasty substitute due to time restraints and caused a lot of friction between the 'neos'

and Kennedy.

If you care to research further, I have no doubts that you will be quite shaken by what you discover, as would any loyal American who believes in the professed values of the U.S.

So, you see that it is quite rational to continue delving into 9/11 in view of the historical evidence.

Truth has a nasty habit of eventually coming out, and it's best to be mentally prepared for it.

[theloniusfleabag]

Another interesting bit about WTC 7...

http://www.wtc7.net/pullit.html

It seems Silverstien took out heavy insurance a few months before the attack, and profited immensely. Some 500 million on WTC 7 alone, and 7.2 billion overall(he was allegedly paid double the insurance value, because they were two seperate 'incidents'), though he was not the owner.

[Tawasakm]

I can't say I really want to get involved in this topic. Having said that there is one point that interests me.

I agree. But there is a difference in currency and the gold. The gold is constantly and slowly going up in price. The US dollar is not really going anywhere. What would be worth more at that point? Gold where it goes up all the time and physicly holding it somewhere. Or the ever sliding dollar.

Also it is 1 billion in tangeble assets. Steeling the greenbacks won't amount to much.

How much would that much gold weigh?

Perhaps you can use this link to work it out.

Got any theories on how that much weight was covertly relocated?

[crazymf]

You are not alone.

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/

Those should keep you going for a while.

[geoffrey]

110,000 pounds of gold is about a billion bucks worth. That would be difficult to transport at best.

[GostHacked]

110,000 pounds of gold is about a billion bucks worth. That would be difficult to transport at best.

Guess that would depend on the size of the trucks.

Some flat bed military vehicles can carry 10,000lbs.

Dump trucks (short box) can carry about 5000 to 8000 lbs.

Some larger dump trucks can carry twice the above.

Makes sense you would need about 15 to 20 trucks to carry all that gold out.

[geoffrey]

110,000 pounds of gold is about a billion bucks worth. That would be difficult to transport at best.

Guess that would depend on the size of the trucks.

Some flat bed military vehicles can carry 10,000lbs.

Dump trucks (short box) can carry about 5000 to 8000 lbs.

Some larger dump trucks can carry twice the above.

Makes sense you would need about 15 to 20 trucks to carry all that gold out.

So 9-11 was a bank robbery is the summarized theory?

[GostHacked]

110,000 pounds of gold is about a billion bucks worth. That would be difficult to transport at best.

Guess that would depend on the size of the trucks.

Some flat bed military vehicles can carry 10,000lbs.

Dump trucks (short box) can carry about 5000 to 8000 lbs.

Some larger dump trucks can carry twice the above.

Makes sense you would need about 15 to 20 trucks to carry all that gold out.

So 9-11 was a bank robbery is the summarized theory?

Not yet. it was just a response to your Q about what would be needed to haul it all off.

not impossible, and it would be a priority to move that right after the first plane hit 'just in case'

[moderateamericain]

110,000 pounds of gold is about a billion bucks worth. That would be difficult to transport at best.

Guess that would depend on the size of the trucks.

Some flat bed military vehicles can carry 10,000lbs.

Dump trucks (short box) can carry about 5000 to 8000 lbs.

Some larger dump trucks can carry twice the above.

Makes sense you would need about 15 to 20 trucks to carry all that gold out.

So 9-11 was a bank robbery is the summarized theory?

Not yet. it was just a response to your Q about what would be needed to haul it all off.

not impossible, and it would be a priority to move that right after the first plane hit 'just in case'

good luck proving your theory

[Insom Elvis]

Yeah, the buildings were designed to withstand the force of impact from a 747, but not the damage dealt from explosion from a full fuel tank. If you wish to think this was a conspiracy I have to ask you what would motivate the hijackers to commit suicide if not an afterlife sought due to promises in the Quran? Money is no good when you're dead.

[GostHacked]

Yeah, the buildings were designed to withstand the force of impact from a 747, but not the damage dealt from explosion from a full fuel tank. If you wish to think this was a conspiracy I have to ask you what would motivate the hijackers to commit suicide if not an afterlife sought due to promises in the Quran? Money is no good when you're dead.

If they accounted for the plane hitting the building they have taken into account the fireball than can come from a plane exploding, do not think for one moments they architecs of the WTC did not take that into account. They did. Besides most of the fireball happened outside both towers when the planes hit. Burning off most of the fuel.

The money would not benefit the terrorists, but would benifit their families (if it ever got to them or someone made sure that their family is taken care of after your sacrafice.

I am just not sure. WTC 1 or 2, suffered a huge ass bomb in the basement taking out several underground garage floors, and the fire in 1975 covered 11th and a couple other floors and burned for hours. Each time the building stood strong. My research continues.

[Wilber]

The World Trade Center is still there. I saw it yesterday.

[GostHacked]

Yeah, the buildings were designed to withstand the force of impact from a 747, but not the damage dealt from explosion from a full fuel tank. If you wish to think this was a conspiracy I have to ask you what would motivate the hijackers to commit suicide if not an afterlife sought due to promises in the Quran? Money is no good when you're dead.

They know the money won't help them, but the money WILL help their families.

[Drew Bedson]

My research continues.

Good for you.

I also have a conspiracy theory that is rather far fetched. Belivers in the conservative side of an already conservative religion conspired with othet 'intellectuals' of same to percipitate an act so obscene it would cause the USA to react. This reaction was a supposed win/win for them in that if the US did invade Afganistan where the planners, trainers and leaders resided they would become entrenched in a war in which the true weakness of the infidel would be exposed through the same tactics used against the USSR.

The other alternnative was for the US to invade Saudi Arabia and other nations in a clear act of anti Muslim fervor percipitating the sought for street rising which would also in turn percipitate an overthrow of corrupt regimes that were backed by the USA.

This would allow them (Al Qeda) to become their namesake (the base) and rise to power and exploit their loyal fifth column within the arab world. Along with the weakening of smaller governments they would , in a movement of anti American and westernism sweep to secondary power across the Middle East.

Just a theory mnd you. It doesn't take into account how nylon washers melting at well below diesel temperatures disintigrating and caused metal to become unstable. Washers which are designed to keep metal girders and such tight so they can withstand buffeting from wind and such. Not to mention the uneven stretching from uneven temperature changes in the structures (concrete and metal) which they support. Especially after they have suffered a trumatic hit and extended high degree change under ever changing directional swaying. And, more than half the fuel outside? Quite the aim whoever was in control of the aircraft had. Were they trying to avoid hitting the buildings and had bad aim or, maybe they got enough in there to do the job?

Noam Chomsky said it pretty good, actually he said it twice in two quotes (one I couldn't find) one of which was something like 'they're a big time waster' and then this actual quote which says the same thing

"If the intelligence

agencies knew what they were doing, they would stimulate conspiracy theories

just to drive people out of political life, to keep them from asking more

serious questions."

The truth is out there somewhere.......................................................................

...........

Actually, got one for you as a sort of test/partiality check if you will. Why was the Saudi family allowed to fly home right after 911?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Bedson,

Actually, got one for you as a sort of test/partiality check if you will. Why was the Saudi family allowed to fly home right after 911?

A bit of a strange one. The US gov't claims "it was for their own safety". If I recall correctly, the FBI claimed that no securtiy check was done, and they later back-pedalled and said that they had all been cleared. Since some of them had economic ties to the Bush family, a lot of the wrong questions might have been asked.

[Hollus]

No steel structured highrise has ever collapsed from fire before or after 9/11, and there have been much more intense fires that left nothing but steel frames. The towers collasped to dust; clean-up crews found no office debree bigger than a few inches. Try dropping a chunk of concrete from 1000' and see if it smashes into fine dust like the dust that covered manhatten as far as Jersey. The black smoke from the fires indicated that the fire was burning cool from lack of oxygen; firefighter thermo imageing did not show any areas in the building hot enough to melt steel. WTC 7 was delibratly 'pulled' as reported on CNN on the afternoon of 9/11; the owner gave the OK to pull it and recieved 13 billion in insurence. All officail theorys as to why the towers collapsed have been debunked by numerous reputable organizations. The 'pancake theory' is impossible, esspecialy at near freefall speeds. The 47 steel pillars that were the main structure of the building collasped into 20'-30' pieces which were immediatly loaded on to barges and shipped to China where they were melted down, preventing examination of the steel, which would have shown wether or not explosives were used. The 9/11 Commision Report does not even mention the 47 steel pillairs but unstead, flat out lies by saying the building were supported by an exoskelleton. Steel, even at near melting temperatures, retains a great deal of structural integrity; the pilliars should have been sticking out hundreds of feet from the wreckage. It is illegal to remove anything from a crime seen before an investigation. Video of the collapse shows what demolition expert reffer to as "squibs" shooting out below the collaspe lines during the fall. The collaspe began at the very top floor, above where the planes entered (very suspicious). Only 600,000$ was spent in the 'investigation' as to why the towers collapsed; more mony is spent on investigations of crashed planes. Why was a thourough investigation as to why the structure failed not carried out? When the planes hit, the buildings ocillation was consistent with what was expected from such an impact. The towers restabalized at a rate that indicated maintianed structural integrity. In the week previous, power outages and evacuation drills were carried out in the area. On the morning of the attacks Cheney was in NY participating in drills designed to address such an event as highjacked airliners crashing into targets, yet the administration claimed they had never imagined such an attack. Following the attacks they invaded the wrong countries, as Suadi Arabia and Pakistan both had many more connections with the highjackers than did Afghanistan. There is doucumentation of the head of Pakistans intelligence agency- the ISI- wiring 100,000$ to the mastermind of the attacks Mouhammed Atta, weeks before the attacks. The CIA have a well doucumented 'hand in glove' relationship with the ISI. In a matter of days after the attacks, a delegation from Pakistan-including the head of the ISI- arrived in Washington and declared allegence in the 'war on terror'.

Thats all I can think of right now off the top of my head, but there is much more. Here is a video that examines the conspiracy:9/11 Reviseted If you watch this and still claim that the American government did not intentionaly bring down WTC #1 #2 and #7 than I would love to hear your stochastic theory.

Take a look at the many videos and articles on informationclearinghouse. I reccommend the one titled: "Dr. Michael Parenti: Terrorism, Globalization and Conspiracy".

[Wilber]

Yeah, the buildings were designed to withstand the force of impact from a 747, but not the damage dealt from explosion from a full fuel tank. If you wish to think this was a conspiracy I have to ask you what would motivate the hijackers to commit suicide if not an afterlife sought due to promises in the Quran? Money is no good when you're dead.

If they accounted for the plane hitting the building they have taken into account the fireball than can come from a plane exploding, do not think for one moments they architecs of the WTC did not take that into account. They did. Besides most of the fireball happened outside both towers when the planes hit. Burning off most of the fuel.

The money would not benefit the terrorists, but would benifit their families (if it ever got to them or someone made sure that their family is taken care of after your sacrafice.

I am just not sure. WTC 1 or 2, suffered a huge ass bomb in the basement taking out several underground garage floors, and the fire in 1975 covered 11th and a couple other floors and burned for hours. Each time the building stood strong. My research continues.

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

[Hollus]

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

The damning evidence in the video isnt in its beggining. If your not willing to even watch it than I have no interest in debating your lazy intellect. Plus your reply does not address any of the points in my post. If the jet fuel didnt burn off, and if it was burning in the building, than why did the heat trace not show up on the thermo imageing? GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO.

[Wilber]

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

The damning evidence in the video isnt in its beggining. If your not willing to even watch it than I have no interest in debating your lazy intellect. Plus your reply does not address any of the points in my post. If the jet fuel didnt burn off, and if it was burning in the building, than why did the heat trace not show up on the thermo imageing? GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO.

Perhaps my lazy intellect has something to do with the fact I have made my living working on and flying heavy jet aircraft for the last 33 years, including Al Qaeda's weapon of choice.

[geoffrey]

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

The damning evidence in the video isnt in its beggining. If your not willing to even watch it than I have no interest in debating your lazy intellect. Plus your reply does not address any of the points in my post. If the jet fuel didnt burn off, and if it was burning in the building, than why did the heat trace not show up on the thermo imageing? GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO.

I can't find the video on that page. Do you have a direct link or show me because I'm blind apparently.

[Hollus]

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

The damning evidence in the video isnt in its beggining. If your not willing to even watch it than I have no interest in debating your lazy intellect. Plus your reply does not address any of the points in my post. If the jet fuel didnt burn off, and if it was burning in the building, than why did the heat trace not show up on the thermo imageing? GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO.

Perhaps my lazy intellect has something to do with the fact I have made my living working on and flying heavy jet aircraft for the last 33 years, including Al Qaeda's weapon of choice.

However you want to justify it.

[Hollus]

The statement that most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball doesn't cut it. Those aircraft were each carrying around 40,000 pounds of pure kerosene. That much kerosene just doesn't explode and disappear, it burns for a long time. I started to watch that 9/11 revisited video but they lost me right there.

The damning evidence in the video isnt in its beggining. If your not willing to even watch it than I have no interest in debating your lazy intellect. Plus your reply does not address any of the points in my post. If the jet fuel didnt burn off, and if it was burning in the building, than why did the heat trace not show up on the thermo imageing? GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO.

I can't find the video on that page. Do you have a direct link or show me because I'm blind apparently.

This should be it:9/11 Reviseted

If that does'nt work, go to http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ and scroll down 'till you see the 'videos and audio' list on the left side of the screen. Obviously titled '9/11 Reviseted'. There are also many others on the subject.

[GostHacked]

I cannot say for sure about WTC 1 and 2, but WTC 7 was suspicious. And yes all buildings came down and near free fall, this in itself is astonishing.

Even if you watch the impacts again, where those fireballs happened, most of it was outside each tower.

If you want to see what a real hard core fire does to a building check the fire that happened in Spain, the fire lasted for 24 hours, and the structure still stood tall.

Now again it could be just the way the WTC 1 and 2 were designed, but this does not explain WTC 7 which was never directly hit. And if 7 fell, 6 and (directly under 1 and 2 and between 1,2 and 7 should have been crushed to the ground, but those buildings were still standing, and were demo'd later.

The Windsor Tower in Madrid.

http://www.spainherald.com/241.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Windsor_Building.

They are going to demo the building now. They deem it not safe to even fix up.

[Minimus Maximus]

No steel structured highrise has ever collapsed from fire before or after 9/11, and there have been much more intense fires that left nothing but steel frames.

Maybe none have collapsed from fire (I honestly don't know), maybe some have collapsed from defects in the structural steels caused by a chain of events starting with fire, or an explosion and subsequent fire. I've seen booms from 500 ton conventional cranes that failed from a nick less than 1" long and 1/32" deep. A passenger jet striking a building would make alot of nicks.

If the sprinklers came on there's even more to worry about. Quenching of structural steels causes changes to the microstructure leaving it in a brittle state (carbon content also plays a role here, control of carbon content in structural steels has improved drastically since the building of the WTC btw). Very bad if other defects are present (like nicks from passenger jets).

Steel, even at near melting temperatures, retains a great deal of structural integrity; the pilliars should have been sticking out hundreds of feet from the wreckage.

Steel under extreme compression and shear stresses? No, not even a piece of steel stuck in the gound with no forces acting upon it. The change in tensile strength of a structural steel heated to near melting would be huge, catastrophic in the case of a high rise with a big hole in it.

Hollus, while I find some of the information regarding 9-11 intriguing, I have a serious problem with these statements. I may not be an expert in the fields of metallurgy or fracture mechanics, but I do have a working knowledge of them and if anybody claiming to be an expert in these disciplines ever repeated these statements to me I would laugh at him/her, slap him/her, pick him/her back up, rinse and repeat.

This is the problem with conspiracy theories, it sometimes requires a good deal of knowledge to understand the minutia of the theory itself. Then along comes an expert with an agenda and poof... a theory is born.

I've watched these 9-11 clips before and find as many questions about the conspiracy theorists interpretations as I do from what they claim to uncover. This leads me to believe that the only real truth about conspiracy theories is that they are a marketable commodity (you can by the DVD version for around 20-30 USD).