Pedophiles waiting in line....

[betsy]

Don't you think the most logical solution for GRM to prove strongly that Man-Boy love is not part of the gay culture is to...

...lobby for the age of consent to be raised HIGHER?

You haven't offered much proof hat there's any movement afOot to lower thE age of consent. Most mainstream gay organizations' stance on the issue is that, regardless of what the age is, the AoC for "gay" sex should be the same as hetero sex (SOMETHING YOU'VE FAILED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD).

Obviously you have not read this. Here!

"Even "pro-gay" feminists have called on gay groups to distance themselves from efforts to lower the age of consent.

Writing in the UK Guardian newspaper in 2001, Julie Blindel points out, "If gay men are going to, on the one hand, campaign for sexual access to younger and younger boys, but bleat about public perceptions of them as a league of child abusers, is it any wonder that the whole thing is such a mess?" Blindel concludes, "If gay men are serious about distancing themselves from child sexual abuse, then it's up to them to make some real efforts to join forces against this gross violation." (see Blindel's piece here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...3,4145251,00.... )

The IATC's Carlin concurs, "If gays are going to campaign (by way of zero change), for sexual access to young boys, they may lose the right in the eyes of many people to complain about the perceptions associated with their choice".

I thought you were just kidding. But it seems that you're not well-informed for there are ample evidence about this!

[betsy]

The Gay Community should...and MUST pressure their lobbying groups that this time around, they should stand alongside Heterosexuals and 80% of the population who want to see the age of consent to be raised to 16!

Given your glaring ignorance of gay groups and the gay community, I don't think you're in a position to tell them what to do.

Maybe I'm not in any position to tell them what to do. But I don't want my children or anyone else's at any age...to be sodomized or otherwise abused by some sexually obsessed perverts! That's what pedophiles are, incidentally!

[YankAbroad]

Hmmmm, so I go away for a few days and I see:

1) None of my points have even been addressed;

2) Apparently the "inoffensive" folks advancing the "gays are pedophiles" arguments are using "gay" as an insult;

3) They've at least dropped their phoney "I'm hurt by your personal attacks" tone and let the real hate in their little stone hearts shine through.

I couldn't have asked for a better demonstration of the obsessive nature of small-minded homophobia if I tried. Thanks, guys!

[Canuck E Stan]

Our new Liberal opposition leader, Bill Graham and his supposed involvement with 15 year old male prostitute Lawrence Metherel for years never really was made an issue by the media ........apparently Toronto didn't care either and re-elected him again. Fifteen year olds with old guys is acceptable in T.O.?

[YankAbroad]

Oh that's nothing.

They also encourage pregnant women in Toronto to abort their babies so that they can feast on the foetuses. I've seen it.

A pregnant woman walks in, someone asks her to abort the foetus. If she agrees, they take her to the clinic in the back. If she refuses, they tend to kill her and then take her foetus. Either way, they eat it, right on the spot.

Those horrible immoral Torontonians.

[geoffrey]

Hmmmm, so I go away for a few days and I see:

1) None of my points have even been addressed;

2) Apparently the "inoffensive" folks advancing the "gays are pedophiles" arguments are using "gay" as an insult;

3) They've at least dropped their phoney "I'm hurt by your personal attacks" tone and let the real hate in their little stone hearts shine through.

I couldn't have asked for a better demonstration of the obsessive nature of small-minded homophobia if I tried. Thanks, guys!

Spike doesn't represent anyone's point of view with his ridiculous childish attacks.

[Spike22]

Call me a homophobic or old fart whatever I don't like to see the gay agenda thrown at me all the time or for that matter sex of any kind (yes I am old) everytime I watch TV or my grandchildren are exposed to it.

Yup that's me Mr conservative with a big capitol C. I can't believe how complacent the majority of Canadian are. The "well I guess we just have to live with it" attitude, why because it is told to us in the media: barf, puke spew and for the gay's "meow" if you don't like it.

[geoffrey]

Call me a homophobic or old fart whatever I don't like to see the gay agenda thrown at me all the time or for that matter sex of any kind (yes I am old) everytime I watch TV or my grandchildren are exposed to it.

Yup that's me Mr conservative with a big capitol C. I can't believe how complacent the majority of Canadian are. The "well I guess we just have to live with it" attitude, why because it is told to us in the media: barf, puke spew and for the gay's "meow" if you don't like it.

Well I don't like it either, and I'm pretty outspoken against the gay agenda.

However, the jokes about gay sex and stuff is questionable. Theres ways to deal with things in a legal minded, moral perspective, and a way to deal with things where people just get angery and defensive.

Lets keep it clean please, I agree with you Spike in principle, but I don't agree with those kind of slurs and attacks.

[betsy]

Call me a homophobic or old fart whatever I don't like to see the gay agenda thrown at me all the time or for that matter sex of any kind (yes I am old) everytime I watch TV or my grandchildren are exposed to it.

Yup that's me Mr conservative with a big capitol C. I can't believe how complacent the majority of Canadian are. The "well I guess we just have to live with it" attitude, why because it is told to us in the media: barf, puke spew and for the gay's "meow" if you don't like it.

You hit that one about the media right on the head!

About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal.

But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out!

The owner of the penis is unseen.

It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report!

She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times!

Society had been systematically disensitized and manipulated by the media to accept this without any question.

The gag law was the nice touch to prevent any attempts at any question!

But of course, the media. Why do you think they're so busy and aggressive promoting this acceptance?

[Shakeyhands]

Call me a homophobic or old fart whatever I don't like to see the gay agenda thrown at me all the time or for that matter sex of any kind (yes I am old) everytime I watch TV or my grandchildren are exposed to it.

Yup that's me Mr conservative with a big capitol C. I can't believe how complacent the majority of Canadian are. The "well I guess we just have to live with it" attitude, why because it is told to us in the media: barf, puke spew and for the gay's "meow" if you don't like it.

You hit that one about the media right on the head!

About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal.

But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out!

The owner of the penis is unseen.

It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report!

She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times!

Society had been systematically disensitized and manipulated by the media to accept this without any question.

The gag law was the nice touch to prevent any attempts at any question!

But of course, the media. Why do you think they're so busy and aggressive promoting this acceptance?

Is it required for you to put your penis in the hole? Are you required to go t this bar? Were you required to read the article? Whats the problem?

[Spike22]

geoffrey I do represent a lot of peoples views - the old silent majority. Like I said it they would all get off their rear ends and speak out about this issue we would have a more balanced story unlike what is depicted in the media where a lot of the left wing liberal gays work.

Starnge how the US military still has not bought into the gay thing. This is an interesting article and associated forum here:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...C=airforce-a.nl

The Canadian military on the other hand has video's depicting gay's and that they are part of the team and not to pick on them boo hoo. not in my fox hole buddy.

[betsy]

Call me a homophobic or old fart whatever I don't like to see the gay agenda thrown at me all the time or for that matter sex of any kind (yes I am old) everytime I watch TV or my grandchildren are exposed to it.

Yup that's me Mr conservative with a big capitol C. I can't believe how complacent the majority of Canadian are. The "well I guess we just have to live with it" attitude, why because it is told to us in the media: barf, puke spew and for the gay's "meow" if you don't like it.

You hit that one about the media right on the head!

About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal.

But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out!

The owner of the penis is unseen.

It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report!

She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times!

Society had been systematically disensitized and manipulated by the media to accept this without any question.

The gag law was the nice touch to prevent any attempts at any question!

But of course, the media. Why do you think they're so busy and aggressive promoting this acceptance?

Is it required for you to put your penis in the hole? Are you required to go t this bar? Were you required to read the article? Whats the problem?

Who would have thought that what I was reading on the front page of what was parading to be a national paper, was nothing more than an endorsement of indecently x-rated, if not downright deviant acts?

It does not belong on the front page, sir!

It belonged in the likes of Hustler, and whatever Gay magazines there are. Or at best, somewhere on the nth page...with a warning of graphical sexual contents and that some of the contents may be offensive to others.

It shows where the media is mis-leading society!

[betsy]

geoffrey I do represent a lot of peoples views - the old silent majority. Like I said it they would all get off their rear ends and speak out about this issue we would have a more balanced story unlike what is depicted in the media where a lot of the left wing liberal gays work.

I do believe that a lot of silent majority are intimidated...or had given up on speaking out on the issue (not because of finally accepting what the Liberals are ramming down our throats), but more so out of reluctant resignation and hand-throwing up in the air "what's the point of reasoning with Liberals who have logic all tupsy-turvy!"

Just read at the ru-butts and the line of reasoning here...and you get the message!

All they could do to re-butt is shout BIGOTRY!

Well, they can call me a bigot til they're blue in the faces. I know I'm not. And I definitely know why they're resorting to that labelling. It's the oldest trick in book for these people when they're stumped for sensible rebuttals.

[betsy]

Here is another evidence that I just stumbled upon!

A letter by NAMBLA to ILGA Secretariat.

"Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 21:02:41 -0500

From: Roy Radow <[email protected]>

Subject: NAMBLA Replies to ILGA Secretariat (Revised)

Dear Tommy-tom,

Please replace the NAMBLA-ILGA statement which currently appears

in the QRD with this revised statement. Thanks.

NAMBLA has been a member of the International Lesbian and Gay

Association for 10 years. We've been continuously active in ILGA longer

than any other US organization. NAMBLA delegates to ILGA helped write

ILGA's constitution, its official positions on the sexual rights of

youth, and its stands against sexual coercion and corporal punishment.

We are proud of our contributions in making ILGA a stronger voice for the

international gay and lesbian movement and for sexual justice. "

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/orgs/NAMBLA/nambla....lga.secretariat

Not only was NAMBLA a member of ILGA for 10 years. NAMBLA also helped write ILGA's constitution!

ILGA's OFFICIAL positions on the sexual rights of youth!

Hmmmm....

[betsy]

All you are doing here is what you've been accussed of doing all along: create the connection between the broad and diverese aims of the gay community (such as equality, including the equalization of age of consent laws) with a small, fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore. So stow the sanctimonious claptrap and false piety. No one is buying what you're selling.

Thanks for reminding me, Black Dog. I meant to ask questions about this a while back.

Going back to NAMBLA....as I understand, only their website exists...and members are nowhere to be found.

Where are they now?

Did they slink into sewers?

Under rocks?

....or crawled back right under the protective skirts of some gay groups we know?

[Spike22]

Hopefully they have left earth and gone back to their mother planet Corn-Hole-E-Oh.

[Black Dog]

Why is that telling? I already pointed out that what one finds on the internet is placed there by advocacy groups. There is a ton of "pro-gay" information out there, but that's not likely to contain anything critical. The critical information, obviously, would be on 'anti-gay" sites, generally religious or hate sites, and I rather doubt you'd have much use for such cites.

Ah. Gotcha. Everyone's too scared. The almighty International Homo Conspiracy Strike again.

But when was the last time you heard of a "ring" of child molesters broken up who weren't targeting boys? When was the last major scandal involving institutional molestation, be it by coaches, priests, teachers, scout leaders, or whomever, which wasn't targeting young boys? I've already posted statistics which have shown that virtually all the victims of priest are boys. The victims of the more famous incidents, such as at Mount Cashel, were boys.

It's interesting that you attribute this to "gay culture" as oppossed to power dynamics. It strikes me that priests, hockey coaches , what have you are not liely to be immeresed in the gay culture you blame for their behaviour.

Yes you're right. The concern should be no more with the gay community than with the community in general. In fact your being gay is irrelevant to me and to most of society.

The point is your sub-culture is associated, whether you like it or not, with NAMBLA. The homosexual community is part of the problem - it's the entire society's problem...and it's the entire society's responsibility to solve it...with or without the support of the homosexual community.

The only people who know what NAMBLA is are people like you intent on creating the association between homosexuality and pedophilia. If there's a link between this non-entity organization and public perception of homosexuality it's because people like you put it there. (BTW, I have to chuckle at the notion that my position on this topic is based on my sexuality. It's not.)

Obviously you have not read this. Here!

"Even "pro-gay" feminists have called on gay groups to distance themselves from efforts to lower the age of consent.

Writing in the UK Guardian newspaper in 2001, Julie Blindel points out, "If gay men are going to, on the one hand, campaign for sexual access to younger and younger boys, but bleat about public perceptions of them as a league of child abusers, is it any wonder that the whole thing is such a mess?" Blindel concludes, "If gay men are serious about distancing themselves from child sexual abuse, then it's up to them to make some real efforts to join forces against this gross violation." (see Blindel's piece here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...3,4145251,00.... )

The IATC's Carlin concurs, "If gays are going to campaign (by way of zero change), for sexual access to young boys, they may lose the right in the eyes of many people to complain about the perceptions associated with their choice".

I thought you were just kidding. But it seems that you're not well-informed for there are ample evidence about this!

Hmmm. No context, no reference to any actual incidences where gay groups have lobbied for the AoC to be lowered for all type sof sexual activity... yup...more b.s.

You hit that one about the media right on the head!

About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal.

But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out!

The owner of the penis is unseen.

It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report!

She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times!

Boy, you really are clueless. One second of googlingh fond eh article, which was an account of and alleged "secret deal with owners of gay bars that its officers will turn a blind eye to arguably illicit sex activity so long as it remains behind closed doors." Nothing approving about it (as one would expect from a right-wing nespaper like the Post).

Just read at the ru-butts and the line of reasoning here...and you get the message!

All they could do to re-butt is shout BIGOTRY!

Well, they can call me a bigot til they're blue in the faces. I know I'm not. And I definitely know why they're resorting to that labelling. It's the oldest trick in book for these people when they're stumped for sensible rebuttals.

But you are a bigot. You believe your worldview is superior to that of gay people who's sexual prolictivities differ from your own. That's the dictionary definition of bigotry. My problem with you has been your avoidance of simple facts and logic.

Going back to NAMBLA....as I understand, only their website exists...and members are nowhere to be found.

Where are they now?

Did they slink into sewers?

Under rocks?

....or crawled back right under the protective skirts of some gay groups we know?

There's no denying anymore that you're trying to tar homsexual advocates with the pedophile label.

For anyone interested, here's a really informative article about NAMBLA:

lost Cause

"Never mind the fact that NAMBLA has never been a very large or influential organization," says Philip Jenkins, a professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University and the author of Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America. "But it fit our need then, and still does today, to think of child molesters as being part of an immense, vast, powerful conspiracy that moves in elite circles. NAMBLA has become the acceptable symbol to blame for a lot of what has gone wrong morally in America over the last 20 years."

I think that pretty much sums up where you're coming from betsy.

[Spike22]

From Black Dog

"But you are a bigot. You believe your worldview is superior to that of gay people who's sexual prolictivities differ from your own. That's the dictionary definition of bigotry. My problem with you has been your avoidance of simple facts and logic"

Yes we are bigots. Yes our worldview is superior except when it comes to gaylike things like balet and flower arranging and interior decorating (also those gay dudes eye for the straight guy show - learned some new grooming tips).

Also we have not avoided the simple facts and logic. Gay couples can not reproduce together and hence furthering the human race. Driving down the Chocolate Autobahn does not count as being a married couple. Is black dog your married name or pet name - woof.

[Black Dog]

Also we have not avoided the simple facts and logic. Gay couples can not reproduce together and hence furthering the human race. Driving down the Chocolate Autobahn does not count as being a married couple. Is black dog your married name or pet name - woof.

Well sir, if furthering the human race means more folks like you, then I can see a definite upside to its end.

I also find your apparent fascination with the mechanics of anal intercourse to be pretty interesting. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[betsy]

"Never mind the fact that NAMBLA has never been a very large or influential organization," says Philip Jenkins, a professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University and the author of Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America. "But it fit our need then, and still does today, to think of child molesters as being part of an immense, vast, powerful conspiracy that moves in elite circles. NAMBLA has become the acceptable symbol to blame for a lot of what has gone wrong morally in America over the last 20 years."

I think that pretty much sums up where you're coming from betsy.

So I dug up on Philip Jenkins. Here's what I found.

"In the mid 1990s, the Archdiocese of Chicago opened records to Jenkins on all 2,252 priests who had served Chicago in the past 40 years. Less than 2 percent of all priests who served in that time frame had been accused of sexual misconduct of any kind, and only one case involved pre-pubescent victims. With additional research, Jenkins concluded that pedophilia is no higher among Catholic priests than it is among members of any other profession.

What is slightly more prevalent among priests, however, is the propensity for relationships involving post-pubescent boys. One term some psychologists use for adults who seek sex with young people ages 14-18-legal in many cases-is ephebophilia.

"In most societies, this is a normal age for marriage, so why can we call it a psychiatric disturbance?" asks Jenkins. "The proper word for a man who has sex with a boy of 16 or 17 is homosexuality."

So with the exception of an infinitesimal number of cases-no greater statistically than one would find among other religious clergy or among doctors or lawyers-priests are not pedophiles. In only slightly higher percentages, they are homosexuals who choose teen-age partners.

This fact annoys some secular critics of the church, because by their own ideology it exonerates the handful of offending priests. A growing progressive movement, in fact, has worked hard for a decade toward mainstream acceptance of homosexual men who choose teen partners. "

http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/042502/waynesword.html

[betsy]

[ A growing progressive movement, in fact, has worked hard for a decade toward mainstream acceptance of homosexual men who choose teen partners. "

http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/042502/waynesword.html

They say "14" is the magic number. 13 is a bonus!

Is that why there's a resistance from EGALE to raise the age of consent to 16?

[A Hermit]

In fact your being gay is irrelevant to me and to most of society.

I'm Gay?! Wow, won't my wife of 22 years be surprised to hear that!...

Guess you haven't been reading my comments very closely Betsy. You've leapt to an unwarranted conclusion. But that's not surprising, your whole argument here is based on false assumptions.

The point is your sub-culture is associated, whether you like it or not, with NAMBLA.

Again, it's not MY "subculture", and that association only exists because bigots like you keep pushing the same tired old lies.

The homosexual community is part of the problem - it's the entire society's problem...and it's the entire society's responsibility to solve it...with or without the support of the homosexual community.

If you really think so then why do you single out the homosexual community (whatever that is)? If They're no more responsible than the rest of us why focus on gays? Why reinforce the false association?

[Black Dog]

"In most societies, this is a normal age for marriage, so why can we call it a psychiatric disturbance?" asks Jenkins. "The proper word for a man who has sex with a boy of 16 or 17 is homosexuality."

The difference, of course, is consent. Regardless of the gender of the victim or offender, a sexual relationship conducted without the consent of both partners is dead wrong. So your right-wing writer (who can't resist dredging up NAMBLA) is mistaken to characterize these people as homosexuals first and foremost. They are predators who used their auhority to engage in nonconsensual sex.

Is that why there's a resistance from EGALE to raise the age of consent to 16?

EGALE's position:

In our view, it would not be responsible for government to complete any review of the age of consent before carrying out substantial research-based analysis of the impact of criminal age of consent provisions on youth with particular regard to the concerns raised in these submissions

[Spike22]

Also we have not avoided the simple facts and logic. Gay couples can not reproduce together and hence furthering the human race. Driving down the Chocolate Autobahn does not count as being a married couple. Is black dog your married name or pet name - woof.

Well sir, if furthering the human race means more folks like you, then I can see a definite upside to its end.

I also find your apparent fascination with the mechanics of anal intercourse to be pretty interesting. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

You an expert Black Dog?

[Black Dog]

Also we have not avoided the simple facts and logic. Gay couples can not reproduce together and hence furthering the human race. Driving down the Chocolate Autobahn does not count as being a married couple. Is black dog your married name or pet name - woof.

Well sir, if furthering the human race means more folks like you, then I can see a definite upside to its end.

I also find your apparent fascination with the mechanics of anal intercourse to be pretty interesting. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

You an expert Black Dog?

Why? Are you cruising?